Hi there,
You still fail to see that a Seer and his Bell are separate models. If you kill one of them, the other remains in play, that's because they're 2 different models.
If you cast Spirit Leech on the Furnace, for example, you look at it's profile. There, you have L- of the "machine" and L3 of the crew, but yoy dont have L7 of the character. Then, since you aimed at the Furnace and not the rider, you roll against L3.
Saludos.
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Lol... Man... But that model is in a unit, and creates a unit with a character riding it. Term 'unit' means all the 'models' that are joined together.
So:
- Bell+Gray Seer+Clanrats that are pushing it = single unit
- when all clanrats are killed Bell+Seer = single unit
- when Seer dies and bell is only one model left then it is single unit
So only when the Bell is alone 'unmodified leadership' of a unit = 'umodified leadership' of a model. In every other case you must look at whole unit's Ld even if you target specific model in it.
So:
- Bell+Gray Seer+Clanrats that are pushing it = single unit
- when all clanrats are killed Bell+Seer = single unit
- when Seer dies and bell is only one model left then it is single unit
So only when the Bell is alone 'unmodified leadership' of a unit = 'umodified leadership' of a model. In every other case you must look at whole unit's Ld even if you target specific model in it.
Sure, and? That has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. We are talnking about a spell that targets a model. Forget the term unit.
The spell (Spirit Leech) targets a model. The unmodified L of the model is used. What is the unmodified L of a model? Reading the FaQ about unmodified L of a unit, we can assume that the unmodified L of a MODEL would be the highest of the model (since models can have several profiles).
So you target the Furnace with Spirit Leech. Look for it's unmodified L, read the profiles of the Furnace, forget everything else since everything else is excluded when it comes to this spell that affects ONLY that model. And we see that a Furnace has 2 profiles: for the device and for the monk crew. These are, respectively, L- and L3. So we take the higher (L3) and continue to resolve the spell.
The problem here is that people insist on considering the Furnace/Bell a single unit with its rider. And they're right about that. But forget that the spell is targeting a model. A character does make a single unit with the unit it joins. Still, when you cast Caress of Laniph on that character, you use it's S value, since the spell is targeting that particular model. Still, when you cast Spirit Leech on a Goblin hero inside Black Orcs you roll against the Goblin's L, not the Black Orc's L. With Furnace/Bell it's the same.
So, if you agree that a Bell and it's rider are separate models (and you cant deny that), then why is it that hard to assume that they can be targeted separately with sniper spells and that they would have to use their own stats?
Salu2
The spell (Spirit Leech) targets a model. The unmodified L of the model is used. What is the unmodified L of a model? Reading the FaQ about unmodified L of a unit, we can assume that the unmodified L of a MODEL would be the highest of the model (since models can have several profiles).
So you target the Furnace with Spirit Leech. Look for it's unmodified L, read the profiles of the Furnace, forget everything else since everything else is excluded when it comes to this spell that affects ONLY that model. And we see that a Furnace has 2 profiles: for the device and for the monk crew. These are, respectively, L- and L3. So we take the higher (L3) and continue to resolve the spell.
The problem here is that people insist on considering the Furnace/Bell a single unit with its rider. And they're right about that. But forget that the spell is targeting a model. A character does make a single unit with the unit it joins. Still, when you cast Caress of Laniph on that character, you use it's S value, since the spell is targeting that particular model. Still, when you cast Spirit Leech on a Goblin hero inside Black Orcs you roll against the Goblin's L, not the Black Orc's L. With Furnace/Bell it's the same.
So, if you agree that a Bell and it's rider are separate models (and you cant deny that), then why is it that hard to assume that they can be targeted separately with sniper spells and that they would have to use their own stats?
Salu2
Ok now I know why you think like that. This is the part where you are wrong:
You make separate versions of 'unmodified leadership' (for unit and model) and make false assumptions. Don't do that, look again into FAQ - it's NOT about unit's unmodified leadership but it has one clear definition for everything: "unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit". It's simple as that. That's why you don't look into profile of the Funance like in other examples you gave, but you have to look on whole unit whenever you need to check unmodified leadership. If you still don't understand it I don't know how to explain it to you better
PjEOs wrote: Reading the FaQ about unmodified L of a unit, we can assume that the unmodified L of a MODEL would be the highest of the model (since models can have several profiles).
You make separate versions of 'unmodified leadership' (for unit and model) and make false assumptions. Don't do that, look again into FAQ - it's NOT about unit's unmodified leadership but it has one clear definition for everything: "unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit". It's simple as that. That's why you don't look into profile of the Funance like in other examples you gave, but you have to look on whole unit whenever you need to check unmodified leadership. If you still don't understand it I don't know how to explain it to you better
First of all:
But of course there is a difference between unmodified L of a unit and unmodified L of a model. The spell does show there is a difference since it targets a model and asks you to take the model's unmodified L. You can't say there's no difference.
And now:
a) Notice it says "When taking a Leadership test". In the vast majority of the cases, it's units that take L tests. Exceptions being some Slaanesh gifts and something else I guess.
So
b)The FaQ speaks about how units are to take those unmodified L tests: taking the highest available in the unit without the so well known modifiers.
Now, Spirit Leech is NOT a L test. Technically, this FaQ isn't covering it. But it does explain how to take the unmodifed L of a unit for a L test. This is the only general rule out there about unmodified L, and establishes how to get the unmodified L of a unit. From it, we are able to apply it to other cases.
So when we come to read Spirit Leech, we ask ourselves: "What is the unmodified L of any model?". And following a parallel process, we can deduce that it will be the highest in the model without taking any modifier such as Inspiring presence etc. And in the case of models with several profiles? Obviousy, take the higher.
And last, but not least.
Whenever you accuse somebody of making false assumptions, please take your time to demonstrate it and point out when and why did I make such false assumptions. The small assumptions I made (and I just detailed them in this post) can be done with just using a bit one's brain and I think the deductions are quite logical. You can agree or disagree, but don't just say "that's false" and not even bother in supporting such statement.
Also, you don't have to waste your time trying to make me (poor me) understand such simple stuff. At least, not while you yourslef haven't taken the time to think very much about it.
This is not a flaming to you. But I just felt very annoyed by the way you ended your last post. If you still wish to go on with the discussion, I would thank you not to be so condescending to me.
Salu2
But of course there is a difference between unmodified L of a unit and unmodified L of a model. The spell does show there is a difference since it targets a model and asks you to take the model's unmodified L. You can't say there's no difference.
And now:
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.
a) Notice it says "When taking a Leadership test". In the vast majority of the cases, it's units that take L tests. Exceptions being some Slaanesh gifts and something else I guess.
So
b)The FaQ speaks about how units are to take those unmodified L tests: taking the highest available in the unit without the so well known modifiers.
Now, Spirit Leech is NOT a L test. Technically, this FaQ isn't covering it. But it does explain how to take the unmodifed L of a unit for a L test. This is the only general rule out there about unmodified L, and establishes how to get the unmodified L of a unit. From it, we are able to apply it to other cases.
So when we come to read Spirit Leech, we ask ourselves: "What is the unmodified L of any model?". And following a parallel process, we can deduce that it will be the highest in the model without taking any modifier such as Inspiring presence etc. And in the case of models with several profiles? Obviousy, take the higher.
And last, but not least.
Whenever you accuse somebody of making false assumptions, please take your time to demonstrate it and point out when and why did I make such false assumptions. The small assumptions I made (and I just detailed them in this post) can be done with just using a bit one's brain and I think the deductions are quite logical. You can agree or disagree, but don't just say "that's false" and not even bother in supporting such statement.
Also, you don't have to waste your time trying to make me (poor me) understand such simple stuff. At least, not while you yourslef haven't taken the time to think very much about it.
This is not a flaming to you. But I just felt very annoyed by the way you ended your last post. If you still wish to go on with the discussion, I would thank you not to be so condescending to me.
Salu2
Mod's note @ PjEOs & Errd
Compliments for the very clear explanations and thanks for taking it in a rather courteous manner, that I wish not to see worsening.
As far as I understand, the disagreement comes from the way the question in the FAQ is written.
It is written in two sentences, but the link between the two sentences is debatable:
Or it could be the exclusive cover for the whole FAQ, therefore the FAQ would become irrelevant in our case as Spirit Leech is not a Ld test (as PjEOs believes).
This is another case where the two interpretations could be argued forever. Don't blame each other's brain, both of you make sense with your interpretation.
We don't know for sure if the first sentence is just an example, or if it is the strict cover for the FAQ.
As the case seems very clear thanks to all of your efforts, and I don't see any means to decide what was the intention of the writer, I suggest we closed the topic.
Next time you come into this kind of argument during a game, just decide it with a dice.
Thank you,
Calisson
Compliments for the very clear explanations and thanks for taking it in a rather courteous manner, that I wish not to see worsening.
As far as I understand, the disagreement comes from the way the question in the FAQ is written.
It is written in two sentences, but the link between the two sentences is debatable:
The first sentence could be understood as just an example introduction to a more generic rule about unmod Ld (as Errd believes).Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership.
What is your unmodified leadership?
Or it could be the exclusive cover for the whole FAQ, therefore the FAQ would become irrelevant in our case as Spirit Leech is not a Ld test (as PjEOs believes).
This is another case where the two interpretations could be argued forever. Don't blame each other's brain, both of you make sense with your interpretation.
We don't know for sure if the first sentence is just an example, or if it is the strict cover for the FAQ.
As the case seems very clear thanks to all of your efforts, and I don't see any means to decide what was the intention of the writer, I suggest we closed the topic.
Next time you come into this kind of argument during a game, just decide it with a dice.
Thank you,
Calisson
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Hi there,
First of all, sorry for the harsh words.
Second, I'd like to remark that, whether the first part of the FaQ covers or not the rest of the FaQ, the answer sets a rule for calculating the unmodified L of a unit and that, from it, it should be easy to deduce what the unmodified L of a model should be. And there we would come to the conclusion that Furnaces test with L3 (of the crew) against Spirit Leech.
So far, this is the conclusion that has been applied in each and every single game I've played and I've watched and, if it's of any value to you, in the ETC tournaments all along Europe and other parts of the world, this has been the interpretation accepted.
And I think it's by far the more logical one, both ruleswise and fluffwise (imagine trying to drain the spirit of a sheep and not being able because the shepherd is a couple metres over there? Or better, when draining it, finding that in fact you drained the shepherd's spirit instead of the sheep's?)
Sorry again for taking it into personal ground, really regreting it.
Salu2
First of all, sorry for the harsh words.
Second, I'd like to remark that, whether the first part of the FaQ covers or not the rest of the FaQ, the answer sets a rule for calculating the unmodified L of a unit and that, from it, it should be easy to deduce what the unmodified L of a model should be. And there we would come to the conclusion that Furnaces test with L3 (of the crew) against Spirit Leech.
So far, this is the conclusion that has been applied in each and every single game I've played and I've watched and, if it's of any value to you, in the ETC tournaments all along Europe and other parts of the world, this has been the interpretation accepted.
And I think it's by far the more logical one, both ruleswise and fluffwise (imagine trying to drain the spirit of a sheep and not being able because the shepherd is a couple metres over there? Or better, when draining it, finding that in fact you drained the shepherd's spirit instead of the sheep's?)
Sorry again for taking it into personal ground, really regreting it.
Salu2
@PjEOs: You were overreacting. My post was didn't have aggressive tone by any means, at least wasn't intended to. And I've thought I have explained in it to you why, in my opinion, assumption was false. You are the one that 'haven't taken the time to think very much about it' (in this part you weren't very polite by youself and that's a little payback 
) as you have discarded right away what I was trying to explain you without going through my way of thinking (part "you can't say that there is no difference" - that was what I was trying to prove).
I do agree with you that your logic based on your assumption is correct. But I can't agree that it's 'more logical'. Because the way how FAQ is written has big importance (Calisson got perfectly my reasoning here). Even more - tell me please where do you see that it is about 'unit's unmodified leadership' (as you stated in post above) ? Phrase 'in a unit' is a part of main definition that tells us where we need to look.
Final time, step by step:
- As I see the first sentence of the question as an introduction to the main topic let's ignore it cause it may bring (and it does) a little confusion.
- What's left after doing so ? Clear definition of 'unmodified leadership' that, what is worth noticing, isn't split into any additional terms like 'unit's unmodified Ld' or 'model's unmodified Ld'.
- Now: something needs to use unmodified leadership, in this example a Furnance, so we read what do we have to check: "Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit".
- Does Furnance make a unit with something else ? Yes it does. So we need to look at whole unit and choose highest instead of looking into base profile of the model.
Regarding the ETC part and 'all along the Europe way of playing'... I dare to highly doubt it. Where did you get that information ? Out of curiosity I've checked 2011 Q&A of ETC.
Source: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 18&t=86122
It's also the way of how referee section agreed playing it in polish tournaments.
At the end I want to say again that my posts weren't of any insulting or unfriendly manner to you, it was just a good discussion which I value and that's what this forum is for.
) as you have discarded right away what I was trying to explain you without going through my way of thinking (part "you can't say that there is no difference" - that was what I was trying to prove).
I do agree with you that your logic based on your assumption is correct. But I can't agree that it's 'more logical'. Because the way how FAQ is written has big importance (Calisson got perfectly my reasoning here). Even more - tell me please where do you see that it is about 'unit's unmodified leadership' (as you stated in post above) ? Phrase 'in a unit' is a part of main definition that tells us where we need to look.
Final time, step by step:
- As I see the first sentence of the question as an introduction to the main topic let's ignore it cause it may bring (and it does) a little confusion.
- What's left after doing so ? Clear definition of 'unmodified leadership' that, what is worth noticing, isn't split into any additional terms like 'unit's unmodified Ld' or 'model's unmodified Ld'.
- Now: something needs to use unmodified leadership, in this example a Furnance, so we read what do we have to check: "Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit".
- Does Furnance make a unit with something else ? Yes it does. So we need to look at whole unit and choose highest instead of looking into base profile of the model.
Regarding the ETC part and 'all along the Europe way of playing'... I dare to highly doubt it. Where did you get that information ? Out of curiosity I've checked 2011 Q&A of ETC.
29. I've a unit with a ld 8 mage, a ld 9 character and the banner of discipline. When the leadership 8 mage has to use "the model's unmodified leadership value", which one is this going to be?
A. 9. A model’s unmodified leadership is the highest leadership characteristic in the unit without modifications from any source.
39. If a LD8 character joins the same unit as a ld 10 lord, will the leadership that you use for Spirit Leech be 10?
A. Yes.
Source: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 18&t=86122
It's also the way of how referee section agreed playing it in polish tournaments.
At the end I want to say again that my posts weren't of any insulting or unfriendly manner to you, it was just a good discussion which I value and that's what this forum is for.
Errd, the one thing you (and those who wrote that ETC FAQ) are not seeing here, is that the FAQ entry about unmodified Leadership is not a general definition of unmodified Leadership, because it is an answer to a question with a certain context.
The FAQ does not really clarify the situation at hand here (a model singled out by a spell).
It is the closest thing we got (and I suppose that is why the ETC FAQ writers chose to use it, despite creating a rather illogical situation there), but it is not precisely applicable to this specific situation.
I would agree with PjEOs, that you treat the targeted "unit" (i.e. only the mount without the rider and without the unit it is in) as the "unit" for this purpose.
If this question (i.e. a model with Ld 7 is in the same unit as a model with Ld 9 and is targeted by Soul Leech; which Ld does it use?) would be asked and answered specifically in the FAQ, I am rather sure, it would be answered in that fashion, too. That the model has to use its own Ld 7 against the spell.
Unfortunately, there is no such specific answer for this question.
Bye
Thanee
The FAQ does not really clarify the situation at hand here (a model singled out by a spell).
It is the closest thing we got (and I suppose that is why the ETC FAQ writers chose to use it, despite creating a rather illogical situation there), but it is not precisely applicable to this specific situation.
I would agree with PjEOs, that you treat the targeted "unit" (i.e. only the mount without the rider and without the unit it is in) as the "unit" for this purpose.
If this question (i.e. a model with Ld 7 is in the same unit as a model with Ld 9 and is targeted by Soul Leech; which Ld does it use?) would be asked and answered specifically in the FAQ, I am rather sure, it would be answered in that fashion, too. That the model has to use its own Ld 7 against the spell.
Unfortunately, there is no such specific answer for this question.
Bye
Thanee
I am finding it a bit weird that people go out of their way to "proof" that the section in the BrB faq talking about unmodified leadership somehow isn't true for the Screaming Bell or Furnace. And that the monks or clanrats suddenly are not part of the unit anymore but somehow magicly count as 2 units just for this spell...
It was a nice trick to pull off before this got clearified in the FaQ. Now it doesn't work anymore. Too bad.
Doesn't stop you from using a leadership 9 character and using it on the Plaguepriest and having some luck rolling your dice. Priest only has 2 wounds and you have a 2 leadership headstart so it's pretty good odds of dishing out some damage to him especially considering the furnace doesn't have any wardsaves and only magicresistance 2.
It was a nice trick to pull off before this got clearified in the FaQ. Now it doesn't work anymore. Too bad.
Doesn't stop you from using a leadership 9 character and using it on the Plaguepriest and having some luck rolling your dice. Priest only has 2 wounds and you have a 2 leadership headstart so it's pretty good odds of dishing out some damage to him especially considering the furnace doesn't have any wardsaves and only magicresistance 2.
-
Drainial
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It does work because the spell doesn't target a unit it targets a model, the unit isn't taking a leader ship test, in fact no one is taking a leadership test they are taking a test that is based upon the leadership characteristic, there is a difference. The FAQ doesn't cover this question though the description of what unmodified leadership for a unit taking a led test is does provide some guidence for what the unmodified leadership of a model might be.
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Drainial wrote:It does work because the spell doesn't target a unit it targets a model, the unit isn't taking a leader ship test, in fact no one is taking a leadership test they are taking a test that is based upon the leadership characteristic, there is a difference. The FAQ doesn't cover this question though the description of what unmodified leadership for a unit taking a led test is does provide some guidence for what the unmodified leadership of a model might be.
So what exactly is the difference in targeting a chieftain in a unit of clanrats compared to targeting a screaming bell in a unit of clanrats?
I think we can agree that in both cases we are targeting a model? If they play it like this in ETC.
I've a unit with a ld 8 mage, a ld 9 character and the banner of discipline. When the leadership 8 mage has to use "the model's unmodified leadership value", which one is this going to be?
A. 9. A model’s unmodified leadership is the highest leadership characteristic in the unit without modifications from any source.
and
If a LD8 character joins the same unit as a ld 10 lord, will the leadership that you use for Spirit Leech be 10?
A. Yes.
..then I'm pretty sure thats currently the best way in which most people agree to play until we get an official response from GW.
We can discuss it to death but all your trying to do is play the rule as you think it is intended instead of playing it like it is currently written.
Skrits wrote:We can discuss it to death but all your trying to do is play the rule as you think it is intended instead of playing it like it is currently written.
There is no written rule about this. There is only a rule about Leadership tests. This is not a Leadership test.
There is only an FAQ entry with the context of taking a Leadership test, which can be extrapolated to also cover situations that are not a Leadership test (or not).
Let me ask a different question...
When you cast Okkam's Mindrazor on a unit containing a (higher Ld) character. Do you use the higher Leadership for all attacks?
If you think about it... it's really quite a similar case.
Why should it work any different here?
Because it doesn't say "unmodified"? So "unmodified" is now more than "not unmodified"?
Bye
Thanee
Errd wrote:BRB Faq says:
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.
Despite the original question was about leadership test I think this definition is for all cases when we need 'unmodified leadership'. So for Bell/Furnance we will use Ld of a Seer/Plague Priest or other highest in the unit it is in.
so then by this "unit" thing does that mean that if I have to use my leadership on the plague furnace I use the leadership of the plague priest as it is the highest leadership in the unit? (so leadership 6?) So thus leadership is a special characteristic test since its the highest in the unit not of the model?