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Generalissimo
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Quote:
units dont have to make their points back, that is sheer nonsense, your total army just has to earn more points than your opponents total army, thats all that counts in the end.


It's not nonsense: a good indication of whether a unit is making an impact is whether or not it makes its points back. If your 6 witch elves are killing less than 60 points then, imo, they're not doing a great job. Of course there are exceptions, but generally if a unit of mine is not consistently making back its points then I certainly do reconsider whether or not its as useful on the battlefield as another unit.

Lets use nicer meta communication as well please people :)

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:05 am
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Trainee Warrior

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To look at the points which you can get back or not depends on how you use the unit.
If you use a combat unit as a stand alone unit, which should do the job all on its own, than it is important.
If you use the unit in combination with other units than it is not important.

F.e.: I sacrificed the witch elves, which did damage for 30 points. (so minus 30), but because of this sacrifice I had the opportunity to charge the big enemy unit with my Hydra in the flank and BG in the front. In such a case the -30 is of no interest comparing with the gane in the next round. I think this is the way how to play with DE.

Off course there are exceptions. :D


Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:24 am
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Dark Rider

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I agree with uruk-hai. Taking into account the points back of a unit is only a good approach in certain situations.

Sometimes, sacrificing a unit to take out a smaller (but more dangerous) unit can give you the game. For instance, sacrificing a unit of shades to take out a cheap mortar-like warmachine can take out that bugger which could screw our army.

You have to take into account that units costs are calculated against their GLOBAL value, not their value against T3, AS6 troops. I mean, if all our opponents were T2, no AS hordes, our witches would probably cost way more than they do now. Same with everything else.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:51 am
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Generalissimo
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I think the key word is 'sometimes'.

Of course, skirmishers and screeners etc are often and rightly used to take the bullet for other models and do not make their points back.

That would be fine - but the point of this post was to suggest that the witches could be used as a kind of 'Close-combat-missile', run up against a typical T3 horde unit - not to suggest that witches should be used as screeners or warmachines (which I would actually be in favour of). If the witches don't make their points back in their role as horde bashers (and I don't think they will), then you're putting a lot of weight on them somehow making an impact.

6 witches = 18 attacks, with hatred
First attack role: 18 dice on 3s = 66% hit rate = 12 hits, including 2 poisons.
Second attack role: 6 dice on 3s = 4 hits, including 1 poison.
To wound roll: 13 dice on 4s = 6.5 wounds
Total wounds: 6.5 wounds + 3 poisons = 9.5 wounds
Goblin armour save of 5+ versus 9.5 wounds = roughly 6 dead gobbos.

That's about 24 points ladies and gents. But more importantly, 6 dead gobbos is unlikely to be enough to make any impact on the battle at all (if your horde opponent loses steadfast because of such a minimal loss then he has played very badly).

I can see that they might indeed have a flank role, but as someone else pointed out, its a big difference between saying "get the flank" and actually doing it, particularly against horde units. If your opponent has a horde army but has left gaping big holes in his lines that you can slip a 6 wide unit of witch elves through then you probably don't need to worry much about tactics against them anyway tbh.

Of course points costs are not always relevant: Malus in 7th ed was a great example of this. At nearly 300 points he cost WAY too much for his actual worth by himself, but the ability to have a unit of cold one knights who didn't suffer stupidity made him a lot more valuable than he would have been by himself. Similarly, harpies rarely do much damage (unless your opponents have lots of warmachines or you get lucky against his wizards) but are great for harrassing your opponet and soaking up missile fire that would otherwise hit those more valuable troops behind.

But with 6 witches: I'm just not convinced that - while used as a hex bomb - that they have the necessary impact or utility to overcome the need for a point versus point comparisson.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:39 am
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I start to like this unit also from the side of the phsychological thread. For only 60 points you have 18 poisoned atacks with hatred, with a high initiative.

If you compare this with the gobbo's for the same amount of attacks you need to have 24 gobbo's in three ranks. And than you are not taking in regard the poisoned attacks, the higher WS and the high initiative.
A lot of units(lets say all toughness 3 units and till 5+ armour save units) will not without hesitation attack such a unit. So for only 60 points you have a unit which can give a real thread to most of your oponent units.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:50 am
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Highborn
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uruk-hai wrote:
I start to like this unit also from the side of the phsychological thread. For only 60 points you have 18 poisoned atacks with hatred, with a high initiative.

If you compare this with the gobbo's for the same amount of attacks you need to have 24 gobbo's in three ranks. And than you are not taking in regard the poisoned attacks, the higher WS and the high initiative.
A lot of units(lets say all toughness 3 units and till 5+ armour save units) will not without hesitation attack such a unit. So for only 60 points you have a unit which can give a real thread to most of your oponent units.


You cannot compare the two in any way shape or form. Even if they would amount to the same points, the percentage that six WE for the DE is NOT even in the same vicinity of what 24 Gobbos are to a OnG army. Their purpose is also different, 24 Gobbo's would equate to 3 ranks and maybe even a banner that would give you 4 static res and can be used for a multitude of things all for being a fraction of the army being a horde army and the same cannot be said for the WE. Again killing 2 WE alone renders the unit useless and again cause panic at times to you other units all for what? y]You need to kill atleast what 6 or 7 Gobbo's and with their size matters rule it doesn't even make his units panic. another point is, he will always have Gobbo's against everyone and they will always have a use. The 6 WE's use are SITUATIONAL and will work against some armies in some lists sometimes. That is what trying to get across with using 6 WE. If you like seeing heroic performances every now and then they are fine, but to see them consistently pulling it off, that is a different story.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:19 am
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Dark Rider

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well,

what we have here, is ppl bashing a unit on ONE suggested use for them.

the 6 WE however is a unit that has multiple purposes that can be defined at the start of the battle.
6 wide, they will indeed be a sort of close combat magic missile that can either thin out a horde block,screen other units, and just simply be used as a deployment slot.

however, we dont need to write down deployment formation on our list nowadays as well do we?

So imagine there are no hordes to thin out, but some nice and juicy chars in infantry (or heck, in cavalry), or forward deployed warmachine's, or big scary high toughness monsters?

then we just deploy our 6 WE as a 2x 3 and launch them as a suicide missile to assassinate a char, or a warmachine, or a chariot if the option arrives. Not to mention that getting a flank as a 6x1 deployment can be hard to archive, as a 3 x 2 deployment, its peanuts to get there, esp if you outdeploy the opponent, and 60 pts units help a lot on getting there.

dont bash a unit because you dont like one singular option available to them, its the versality and the high sacrificial value that makes units like these worth it.

like i mentioned earlier, I have at start 7th ed DE used hellebron with 10 of these units (and some harpies and execs and a CoB) and the havoc you can create with cheap, non panicable, but highly destructive units like these is huge.

they simply have only gotten better in the 8th edition due to being almost guaranteed to get their hits in, no longer needing to charge first to strike first.

Just dont expect them to start a combat and win it on their own, they simply carve a path the rest of the army has to follow to victory.

but well, in the 6th edition DE army, we were real dark elves, we easily sacrificed for the greater good, coming 7th edition, everything seems to have to make their points back, we invented death stars instead of synergy in the army, we made uber Lords of doom instead of support heroes, we basically went to the realm of chaos for real it seems. If ye ask me, we became infected by the bandwagon jumpers for the next strongest army that took their former power army philosophies with them and these have ruined the 6th edition dark elf/ druchii net thinking for good


Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:42 am
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Valkyre wrote:
but well, in the 6th edition DE army, we were real dark elves, we easily sacrificed for the greater good, coming 7th edition, everything seems to have to make their points back, we invented death stars instead of synergy in the army, we made uber Lords of doom instead of support heroes, we basically went to the realm of chaos for real it seems. If ye ask me, we became infected by the bandwagon jumpers for the next strongest army that took their former power army philosophies with them and these have ruined the 6th edition dark elf/ druchii net thinking for good

All the power-builds that we used to have are gone with 8th edition, and instead, we have exactly what you seem to be complaining about us not having, a need to have synergy, instead of deathstars and powerhouse lords.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:46 am
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@ Ichiyo: I totally realize that Gobbo's and Witch elves have a totally different function. What I mean is, that I learned that most of my opponents before attacking are more or less calculating the damage they can expect. All i wanted to say that from this perspective the 6 Witch Elves will do most probably more damage to a unit during the first round, than 24 gobbo's. And that only for 60 points.

@ Valkyre. Totally agree. First tactics I tried after reading the new rules where big units. (20 BG, 30 Corsairs,and so on together with support) For me this was not a good tactic. Everything too fragile, and too easy to kill for warmachines. Now I am experimenting to use as cheap as possible units with an as great as possible threat for the opponent. Where every unit at least from turn 2 should have a function (or shooting, or magic, or disturbing, or combat or most important: is threatening the opponent to combat.) Sacirficing 60 points in such a tactic is totally acceptable. But for only 60 points you have a lot of tacticle possibilities with them, and they can give a lot of synergy to my other units. (for only 60 points)


Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:07 am
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Executioner

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This discussion seems to have derailed alitle bit into a point back effectiveness and I don`t think that was the purpose of the author. I personally find that always counting point effectiveness takes some of the fun out of the game for me.

My next game I will take 3-4 small units of we, maby just 5 models, to use as harrassment units. Earlier Iv used small units of spears for this cuz they are onlyu 6p, but then again they are no treath at all. The idea of usiing small harrasment units has 2 main purposes
1. More deployment to see our oppoents hand, very handy imo
2. Disrupt your opponent batle line with carefully moving and angeling so that your oppoents units get in each others way and make a clutter of the line.

This is the way I like to play. Trying to outmanouver my enemy. Maby its just me, but win or loose, the game needs to be fun and challenging for me.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:04 am
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jb, since WE are still special, in normal game sizes, 3 units are the max (unless ye deploy hellebron, then they become core)


Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:58 am
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Quote:
This discussion seems to have derailed alitle bit into a point back effectiveness and I don`t think that was the purpose of the author. I personally find that always counting point effectiveness takes some of the fun out of the game for me.


My point about point effectiveness is that it is one good tool for measuring a unit's worth - yes, there are others, but if you lose sight too much of a point vs point comparisson then you end up risking taking a unit that doesn't have enough impact on the game to justify taking it.

I agree that other methods can and should be used to analyse a unit's effectiveness: but point vs point analysis remains valid and beneficial.

In this example, the author isn't referring to using the unit as a screener or harrasser, he's talking about using it as a single-shot horde munching bomb. In this example, it is useful to compare exactly how much points of horde the unit could kill vis-a-vis how many points it will cost when they die.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:18 am
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Quote:
point vs point analysis remains valid and beneficial.


I'm not going to call this nonsense as has been done before because it is one way of determining a unit's use, as you said. But at the same time it sort of limits your perspective. If a unit helps another (more expensive one) to make back three times it's points worth, eg. by rear charging, or for example if your warriors cancel steadfast, hold the enemy in place and then your black guard charge in and annihilate them, then run them down, then the black guard have made a lot of points back, but the warriors haven't (they might even have lost some in the process) yet overall you are better off.

On the topic of hex bomb, I don't really like it. 10 musketeers for example will make rather short work of them, as would the ten archers that I use to screen my halberdiers. Bascially you are giving a unit that would have no use at all (other than dying instead of something else), a possiblity to make points back that they wouldn't have had otherwise. In this case, you'll notice that an analysis based on how many points a unit used is rather useful.

I've also never liked the idea of suicide units (other than to lure other units into traps, like forcing a charge with harpies), especially not elites. Adding to that is the fact that whatever they hit will then get 2D6" movement, or a reform. All in all, I think not a worthwhile thing to do.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:29 am
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
Quote:
point vs point analysis remains valid and beneficial.


I'm not going to call this nonsense as has been done before because it is one way of determining a unit's use, as you said. But at the same time it sort of limits your perspective. If a unit helps another (more expensive one) to make back three times it's points worth, eg. by rear charging, or for example if your warriors cancel steadfast, hold the enemy in place and then your black guard charge in and annihilate them, then run them down, then the black guard have made a lot of points back, but the warriors haven't (they might even have lost some in the process) yet overall you are better off.

On the topic of hex bomb, I don't really like it. 10 musketeers for example will make rather short work of them, as would the ten archers that I use to screen my halberdiers. Bascially you are giving a unit that would have no use at all (other than dying instead of something else), a possiblity to make points back that they wouldn't have had otherwise. In this case, you'll notice that an analysis based on how many points a unit used is rather useful.

I've also never liked the idea of suicide units (other than to lure other units into traps, like forcing a charge with harpies), especially not elites. Adding to that is the fact that whatever they hit will then get 2D6" movement, or a reform. All in all, I think not a worthwhile thing to do.


Totally agree with him on this. I never liked the idea of fielding a "suicide squad" who may or may not get to do its job and even if it does may or may not be worth it. I can think of better ways to spend 60 points across my army which is guaranteed to be better spent against ANY army I will face. i would even dare to compare another army that employ such tactics and most of the time it doesn't even work as much as you would want to. If you really want to play detachment style MSU whatever you call it, just play Empire or OnG. I heard those fanatics love to kill themselves too... :lol:

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:44 am
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This evening I tried the 6 witch elves and to be honest I was a bit disappointed. For my style of playing nowadays they are too slow and too difficult to maneouvre with them. Maybe with a musician it will be a little bit better, but then there you go, some extra points here and extra points there.

Was playing against beast of Chaos. They got first turn and because of scouts and because he put razorgors, gors and minotaurs immediatly to the front, there was during first turn not much to maneuvre. Everything was already too much in my direction to move to the opponent in order to get some space. (I am using 1 unit of harpies, 1 unit of Dark Riders, 1 CoC, 1 unit CoK, 2 hydras, 10 BG the Witch Elves, two units of 20 Repeater X men, and two sorceres)

The tactic was first to soften the main units with magic and shooting. Assassin is in this respect with Manbane and Rending stars very effective. To sacrifice the harpies, DR and BG to get the enemy units in the right position to attack them, in case you cannot get them immediatly in the right place. (BG is using stubborn and should hold ground.)
For this sacrificial purpose the Witch Elves were much too slow and difficult to manoeuvre, In fact they were standing only in the way.

The result was a wipe out, with from my side the loss of shades, Harpies Dark Riders and Black Guard.


Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:38 pm
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Executioner
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in 3k games (I play against Chaos regularly) I field 3x7Witch Elves.
Hounds die instantly and they are insane against a flank of Great Weapon mauraders.
The Great thing about small units is.
You attack (do insane dmg against some troops)
if they are big enough they fight back (But they can only Kill 7 or 6 or 5, whatever).
While if you take BIG units they maybe kill 20.

I love MSU Witch Elves.


Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:59 am
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six is not small, it.s diminutive... :twisted:

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Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:18 am
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Ichiyo1821 wrote:
six is not small, it.s diminutive... :twisted:


6 harpies are also only 6, but they are very, very, very effective. ;)
But off course they have a totally different function in the game :D


Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:50 am
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Arnold Layne
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Not totally different to what Cat wants to do with Witches here. You use Harpies to pull things out of line so you can stacks-on them. Here Cat uses Witches to pull them out of line also, but to beat them up a bit first. Harpies do it sooner, Witches do it harder, just depends what fits into your plan.

Anderson has it really - it's not whether your 60pts gets its points back, it;s whether you 2000pts or whatever gets its points back. If you can manage to sacrifice a 60pt unit and thus sufficiently weaken and displace a 150pt unit so that something stronger can come in and beat the tar out of it, and then go on to outflank something even bigger and whump that too, then you win that encounter.

Then again, as the Spartan runner to King Philip ; If.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:08 am
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Highborn
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uruk-hai wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
six is not small, it.s diminutive... :twisted:


6 harpies are also only 6, but they are very, very, very effective. ;)
But off course they have a totally different function in the game :D


And yet another point of mine. 6 harpies costs as much, can do block role, fit into tight spaces, chase warmachines, suicide charge on mages, easily provide dangerous terrain checks due to movement advantage, potential march block, deployment trap, used to throw your opponent's deployment off, casue skirmishers to rank up easily and a hell lot more for what they are worth, let's see those witches do even half of that...bottom line, there are way better options to use those points thus in my opinion they are not viable.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:31 am
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Ichiyo, after a few try outs with the Withc elves, I totally agree with you. I have more use from 5 harpies than 6 witch elves. ;)


Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:58 am
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Time to break out those sexy ladies.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:29 am
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hmmm, that could be pretty fun to do, send in a unit of 7 witch elves into some odd unit, cast mindrazor on them, and watch them go to town on said unit. Would have been a great idea against the brettonian guy I played! 21 S8/9 attacks with hatred :)

against those pesky grail knights (assuming flank charge so all 7 get attacks), it'd be:

21 attacks - 10.5 hits - 15.75 after rerolls, 2.625 poisoned.

13.125 hits - 10.9375 wounds.

13.56 wounds - no armor save (-5 on a 2+) so 5+ ward only (prayer) - 9 wounds.

Assuming my math is right, which it might not be since it's late and I've had a long day, then that's pretty good use for 70 points, no worries if it gets wiped out afterward.


Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:21 am
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Don`t forget harpies are ld 6 and not itp. 50% chanse of panic is not so good. I still bring 2x6, but sometimes they do nill. Totally different role than the we`s. 5-6 we can be really nice to tie up a big block of skaven slaves. In some games 2-3 small units of we will really shine, but in other games they might to nothing for you. You will probably not see msu we in ETC, but I think they might be fun to try out annyways.

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:05 am
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Well,

Now we go on how to support the Hexbomb.

1 KB or another attack from the Cauldron. Good if you don't need the buff somewhere else, but hey - it's turn 2 for the bomb to be exploding.

2 A spell, like the mentioned mindrazor or the one reducing the opponents To. Even Swords of rhuin or word of pain will help. But only if you have spare casting dice after apllying damage spells! The idea is to have some addition to the common laser&shooting by taking a hexbomb, not relying on it.

Right?

CATR

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Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:25 am
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