Redirection - Part 1- Frenzy Baiting

[Miasma]

In this article (or series of articles) I will attempt to describe the use of certain tactics to give players some insight into HOW these units combine,
to make an army and how game plans can be made

Firstly I will attempt to give a tactical analysis of re direction.

This breaks down in my mind at least into two broad categories
Frenzy Baiting
Overrun

Frenzy Baiting became more difficult in 8th edition as the unit has a chance of restraining themselves from charging inot the fray through a passed leadership test,
however certain units can still be baited fairly easily (list of units) these then become your general targets for redirection.

A basic idea of redirection is as follows;



It's the Orc and Goblins players turn, the Dark Elf player has deliberately placed the Dark Riders in a position where they're likely to be charged, the Savage Orc
Big Unit unit charges the Dark Riders, the Dark Riders have a number of choices.
1. Stand and Shoot
2. Hold
3. Flee

In this instance Flee would probably be the best option, because there are no other units that the Savage Orcs can charge they are not likely to catch the Dark Riders
and in effect they're likely to be dragged out of position.



This while useful is not in itself a game changing move, it is a stage in a plan.

Lets assume in the same situation as before the Dark Elf player also has a unit of Corsairs in the picture;



The same thing happens this time around, the Savage Orcs declare a charge. The Dark Riders decide to flee (you can also Stand and Shoot however it is likely that the Savage's will
decimate the Dark Riders in combat and reform to face the Corsairs, which eliminates the advantage that the Dark Elves have in this example) the Savage Orcs fail to catch the
Dark Riders. In the Dark Elves turn the Corsairs charge the flank of the Savage Orcs giving an overwhelming benefit to the Dark Elf player in combat without any magic assistance.



Redirection can also be used in such a way to remove steadfast from an enemy unit and tie an opposing unit down for a couple of TURNS (not just phases) with careful use of magical buffs/
blessing from Cauldron of Blood.

I now introduce one of my favourite units, shades

Now a similar situation presents itself, the Dark Elf player has managed to get a unit of Shades into a wooded area in the charge arc of a unit of Savage Orc Big Uns, this tactic also works well
(actually better) if your shades are in a building, but that it beside the point for this simple tactica.



The Savage Orcs declare a charge and the Shades stand and shoot, taking down one or two of them if the Dark Elf player is lucky, since the Shades are within the wooded area, and the Savage Orcs are now
entering the wooded area the Orc and Goblin unit now loses steadfast so the combat will be decided on Kills (for the Dark Elf Player) and Kills, Charge and Banners (Orcs and Goblins) which although not favourable
for the Dark Elf player as it could be it is still better then nothing.



Again as mentioned earlier, not a game winning move in itself but again as part of a larger battle can change the course of the game, lets assume that the Dark Elf player has that unit of Corsairs in the picture,
the unit charges into the flank of the Savage Orc Big Un unit, which means that the chances that the Big Uns will lose the combat are further increased as the DArk Elf player now has the following advantages




-Charging Bonus
-Flank Bonus
-Banner
-Musician (draw)
-Kills

Compared to the Orcs and Goblins who have
-Kills
-Banner
-Musician (draw)

So that, in a nutshell is Frenzy Baiting and a basic and more advanced use of the tactic on the fields of battle.

I hope that this article is of some use to some players and look forward to developing this article (and others) further

Cheers.

Miasma

[Blackphantom]

Vote for sticky! this was really helpful!! ^^

[Shrapnels]

Really nice description and picturing, had a game today where i did the first manouvre, with black guards 7 wide. decimated my opponoments grave guards.
Will try the shades bait another time for sure, since it seems really good.

Keep up the good work
/shrapnels

[Ming]

Thanks Miasma, your article is really helpful.
I also vote for sticky!
I have a question on example n. 1:
Could Savage Orcs redirect their charge on corsairs, if they fail to reach DR?
Corsairs seem to be in their charge arc, even if they are far away.

[Red...]

Useful article, thanks, it would make a good addition to the DRAICH (this is how tactics articles are stickied @Ming and @BlackPhantom).

In the Corsairs and Dark Riders versus savage orcs example (pic 3), could the savage orcs not simply have re-directed their charge against the corsairs when the dark riders chose to flee for their charge reaction? (Edit, just noticed Ming asked the same thing, sorry for the repetition!)

The shades example seems rather bizarre - there is almost zero percent chance that the shades will survive even a single round of combat against savage orcs - they would either be wiped out or forced to flee (savage orcs are sick in combat, and shades with T3, 1 wound and at best a 6+ armour save are not going to survive against them, and even if they do then the combat res will be so greatly against them that they will almost certainly break). Yes, the corsairs could then charge the savage orcs in the flank, but they would need to be positioned further back to be able to charge the savage orcs where they ended up (i.e. 2D6" past where the shades were originally before being cut down to a man / forced to flee from combat).

[Daeron]

Redirection can also be used in such a way to remove steadfast from an enemy unit and tie an opposing unit down for a couple of TURNS (not just phases) with careful use of magical buffs/

It may be interesting to note here that steadfast is not removed by flanking a unit with 2 ranks or more. This removes the rank bonus of the flanked unit in the combat resolution, but not steadfast. Steadfast is removed only if you bring at least 1 unit with at least as many ranks as the enemy.

Still, supporting attacks are only delivered to the front. Flanking a unit means only a minimal amount of attacks can be made by the enemy, while the power of your own charge hardly weakens. This may lead to sufficient kills dealt to the enemy, and a lack of kills returned by the enemy, perhaps enough to rival his remaining ranks and break steadfast.

[Miasma]

All I am attempting to edit and rectify my post in responce to questions raised however it'll take time so bear with me.

In the meantime keep questioning and commenting so that the "finished" article is as complete and robust as possible.

Thanks

[Paricidas]

Some points that I think could use some additional working:

1st example:

a. You say that the Orks are unlikly to catch the DRs. This only holds true under certain circumstances (= distance between DR and Orcs). If the DR are only 1 inch away from the Orcs, the orks will need to roll higher with 2d6+4 than the DRs 2d6 (highest 2 of 3) +1. I am to lazy to calculate the odds, but I guess there is quite a good chance the the orcs catch the DRs and simply kill them, allowing them to reform.

b. Therefor the decision whether to flee with a redirector or to hold is influenced by three factors:
1. distance to the redirected enemy
2. potential fleeing distance of the redirector mainly dependent whether he has the swiftstrider rule or not as there are very few units like the HPA and the doomwheel who flee with more than 2d6.
3. potential charging distance of the attacker (and therefor the movement speed, because unlike the fleeing unit, the pursuiing unit adds its movement rate).
It is perhaps worth mentioning, thjat if you try to pull that one off against HE cav with De infantery, you will need quite a long distance between the two units to come out alive

c. If you add in another unit like the corsairs, no sane player would declare a charge on the DR. If the DR hold, which in this case they should do, they will be slaughthered and the overrun would carry the orcs into a very bad position to be flank charged. So why would the orc declare a charge on the DR?

d. The orc has 2 options:
1. stand still
2. charge the corsairs: As the DE player has misplaced the DRs, they do not redirect at all as the orc can simply charge the corsairs without the DRs being in the way of the charging unit at all. Of course the DRs can in their own turn declare a back charge into the orcs, but as far as I know orks, they wont give a damn about it, as they will hack the corsairs to pieces the round before...

2nd example:
a.this is not an example for redirecting at all imho, nor does it include any situations that are caused by the frenzy rule. An anvil (steadfast shades) blocks another unit (orks) until they eat a counter charge in the flank, this can be done with any steadfast/stubborn unit against any enemy, so I think I dont get the point here.

b. You say that the orcs lose their steadfast because they are in a forest. This is not true as you only lose steadfast if more than 50% of the units models stand in the forest. In your example, the poor shades would have to kill around 50% of the orcs to remove all the back ranks, I dont think thats quite realistic. I would make the forest a little larger, so the entire orc unit stands in it befor the cc phase starts...


Last not least: If I understand the intention of this article, one of its main purposes is to describe redirection from the basics to the advanced tactics. Imho any redirection articles should beginn with an answer to the question: How do i place my redirector in a way that the forced charge will handicap the redirected unit as much as possible. In your first example with the DR and the orcs, the orcs are only redirected by around 45°. If you are willing to sacrifice the DR, you can easily redirect the orcs by 90°, which in some cases would be better.

Please take this as just my 2 cents and if I am wrong somewhere or my poor english led to any missunderstandings just give me a nice cup of stfu.

[Chukie]

The way I looked at all of the pictures and read the guide was not literal but in relation to bigger picture and without paying mind to the actual distances between units, or coverage of the woods for that matter, in the picture(s). My first thought of pictures 2 and 3 was that the Corsair unit must be outside the Orcs' probable charge range... Say at least 14" and thus they'd be relatively safe from redirected charge if the DRs flee as charge reaction as the Orc player would have to be quite lucky on the charge roll.

Sure, the current pictures aren't really that viable tactics by themselves, but if you'd place a third DE unit behind the DR unit, far enough from the Orcs so that they (probably) wouldn't reach the unit with their redirected charge move, the situation would be a lot different. This would impose two threats on the Orc unit if they decide or have to charge the DRs.

[Trax]

The shades example seems rather bizarre - there is almost zero percent chance that the shades will survive even a single round of combat against savage orcs - they would either be wiped out or forced to flee (savage orcs are sick in combat, and shades with T3, 1 wound and at best a 6+ armour save are not going to survive against them, and even if they do then the combat res will be so greatly against them that they will almost certainly break). Yes, the corsairs could then charge the savage orcs in the flank, but they would need to be positioned further back to be able to charge the savage orcs where they ended up (i.e. 2D6" past where the shades were originally before being cut down to a man / forced to flee from combat).

While the Shades' chances to come out alive let alone on top are slim, a sole survivor would be enough to get you a stubborn Shade that holds the line. The Orcs may reform, sure, but perhaps having the Savage Orcs kept at this spot is all you wanted since the following turn would be yours and might allow a combined charge to break the unit.

[Amarok]

Questions about specific units used in Miasma's tactica aside, I think the format is very simply presented and easily understood. Keeping it simple helps those of us who don't have much game time under our belts, whilst enabling us to see how we could apply simple tactics to a wider array of situations, and in a more complex manner after we get the basics down.

Cheers Miasma. I look forward to reading it when it is finished

[Azimyth]

you can also Stand and Shoot however it is likely that the Savage's will
decimate the Dark Riders in combat and reform to face the Corsairs, which eliminates the advantage that the Dark Elves have in this example)

Frenzied troops have to over run. So stand and shoot allows a for a better chance to get the flank of the savages.

[Lorddrittz]

An excellent set of diagrams and examples Miasma.


Okies my maths isn't brilliant but the average flee roll for DR's is 3D6 pick the best 2 is 10.5"s while the Orcs 2D6 + 4 is an average of 11"s.

So the mathematicians can work out the optimal distance for the DR's to sit off the Orcs, and ensure they aren't caught if they choose to flee..

In the second diagram where the DR's Flee, can't the Orcs just re-direct into the Corsairs if they pass their Leadership Test. This may be a failed charge but would re-align the Orcs to face the Corsairs? or have I got this wrong.

[Killerk]

an average swift stride move is 9"

the DR + Corsair combo in real life will never work. You would have to hold with the DR, make sure they are wiped out (99.9% chance here) do to frenzy the savages would be obligated to overrun as per frenzy rues. Then you counter charge with the corsairs (but keep in mind that the corsairs alone might not come out victorious)

For the second option with the shades you would need a unit of about min 7-8 shades in a conga line, for it to work.

A much better scenario is, having a unit small unit rank and file + unit of 5 shades who are behind them in a forest. When the savages go in, massacre your unit, they now must overrun. So they hit your 5 shades. End of turn. Now it's your turn turn, you flank the unit, with say a hydra, use breath weapon, attacks and Tstomp, and thanks to the forest the savages cant claim stead fast, and should be broken.

But a good effort, nice diagrams, keep it up.

[Paricidas]

Why are the DR in the example placed in a 45° angle to the charger?
Why dont you simply place them directly in front of the "S"-enemy, so you can get a rear charge with the corsairs?

[Miasma]

Apologies all for the severe delay in replying, I was in a car accident in early January and recovery has been slow and frustrating. I will get this discussion back up and running as well as answering questions as best I can, considering i have had about 6 weeks out the game.

Its worth noting that these are examples to show how certain moves can be done, also due to this thread being for two websites the examples are probably not the best for each scenario but have sufficed to gain some more information that I need to include in the finished articles

[Killerk]

Good to hear your ok. speedy recovery.

It's like riding a bike, you don't forget, you just get out of practice.