50 Executioners

[Nemesis1020]

Are all of the opinions above still the consensus on using a large unit of executioners, say 30-40? Just wondering if some opinions have changed or if people are still having troubles getting this unit across the field. Thanks.

[The virgin forest]

I have a unit of 30 that never disappoints. Sure they get blasted apart sometimes, but then they take all the heat, while the rest of my army gets in position - and they're great at taking the heat, when blessed with a 5+ ward

I wouldn't go any bigger though, they rarely need all 31 attacks to decimate any opposition, and I prefer having points left for witches and what not.

[Ichiyo1821]

Thing is unless you play 3500 games and up there is simply no DE unit worth running more than 30 a unit. Warriors could go up to 40 but at most cases its not even that good. Everything else cap at 30.

[Azimyth]

I'd have to disagree with Ichiyo. I'm running 1 unit each of WE, Execs and warriors, all 40 strong at 2500; and I have to say that 40 gives an excellent amount of ablative wounds.
Last night in the tower scenario my 40 execs kept 2 stegs, 1 being an ancient and a unit of skinks with kroxis tied up for long enough that my WE could take and hold the tower. Also at the end of the game the WE were 10 strong. If they'd been 30 I would've lost the game.

[Noble korhedron]

Also, even though this isnt popular amongst Druchii.net, Id take a BSB Hag with ASF banner, it will let you strike first most of the time to minimise casualties (even though there is 50, the less casualties the better). The hag is somewhat unprotected, but 30ish attacks from the executioners should be enough to destroy the enemy unit, unless its horde, but in this case you will kill enough for them to lose stubborn and you win combat by a landslide, so if you lose the hag, its not so bad. Give her 5+ ward and hand of khaine also to protect her.

I assume the Hand of Khaine is a gift, but how exactly are you able to give her the 4+ Ward AND that magic banner?!

[Calisson]

I assume the Hand of Khaine is a gift, but how exactly are you able to give her the 4+ Ward AND that magic banner?!

A gift indeed, so you can cumulate with a magic banner.
It is not the 4+ws but the 5+ws given by the CoB.

[Sulla]

Thing is unless you play 3500 games and up there is simply no DE unit worth running more than 30 a unit. Warriors could go up to 40 but at most cases its not even that good. Everything else cap at 30.

I don't agree with that entirely.

For multi-attack units like SSS corsairs or witch elves, where most of the power comes from the front rank, I don't think you need to go over 21 unless they are your main strike unit.

For crossbows, you're probably better off not even going that big. About 7 wide suits my battleline quite well for them, so 14 + a character is about average for me.

But for Executioners I want a horde. That means at least 30 strong, preferably more. Usually, i don't bother to go over 35, but 40 would be handy.

For Spearmen, whose goal is to be steadfast (and where I keep my dreadlord), I want to be pretty big to match my opponent's deepest units, so I usually take about 35 here. Not quite as big as the 50's of skeletons or goblins or 40's of marauders I might regularly face, but close enought that I can reduce them with magic/shooting with a little luck.

[Ichiyo1821]

Nah I didn't say they should always be at 30. They a at 30 means that if I were to max them out, 30 is probably the most I'd have per unit. Yeah I'm ok with 35 spears but 40 honestly I find not to be my style.

[Atanatari165]

I faced a unit of 40 Executioners and they couldn't win their points back. All they fought all game were garbage units. And because my opponent had so many points tied up in that unit, I was able to handle everything else he had. If you cost more than 10 points, you don't go Horde.

12 points is not much more than 10 points. Executioners are very cheap for what you get. A block of 50 with FC and the +1 movement banner is 645 points, but you don't need to add characters to it like most death stars so its actually pretty cheap. They are already stubborn because of the cauldron, they already have crazy damage output, so there isn't a lot that characters can offer other than magic resistance. My usual CoK death star with lord, BSB, and sorceress is over 1,200 points altogether.

Of course this is both a blessing and a curse, even if you wanted to add characters and/or BSB, it isn't worth it because the khainite characters are so limited and fragile. A Death Hag BSB with ASF banner is a bad idea because you are paying an extra 125 pts and making your BSB much more fragile just to get ASF. For those 125 pts you could just buy 10 more executioners which would achieve much the same goal (by helping you weather the initial hits). Keep the BSB on the CoB.

How to deal with the issues people have brought up:

Mobility. People have said they can't get into combat as fast as a block of CoK's, but really there isn't a large difference. They can march 10, 12 with the movement banner, while knights can march 14, it isn't a huge difference. The bigger difference is on their charge and pursuit rolls. You don't want your uber unit to get too far from your CoB anyway so some of the knights mobility is wasted.

Vulnerability to template weapons and shooting. Sure they are vulnerable, but with 50 you have 20 spare wounds, which with the cob ward save means you can absorb about 27 wounds. What you need to protect them is a Sorc with Dark Magic. Word of Pain neutralizes shooters and many war machines, Bladewind kills regular warmachines. If you know you are facing WoC bring Shadow instead. Hellcannons have an initiative of 1, and GW marauders can be initiative tested, slowed, and/or S debuffed.


Vs. hordes of cheap troops. SHOOT these to death and bring the Execs up later. Put RxBs in front, Exec's behind. Bait them into charging the RxBs so you can stand and shoot, then bring up the Execs to deal with the opponent's remaining elite troops and monsters.

vs. Magic. There isn't a lot you can do other than bring dispel power and try to kill the enemy mages. But you can use this as an advantage. Opponents are going to be very afraid of this unit and will throw all their magic at it. If they spend all their magic trying to kill the executioner block, that leaves the other 3/4 of your army free from having to worry about spells.

Pros and cons:

pros:
1. Very cheap actually for so many S6 killing blow attacks in heavy armor
2. Lots of wounds relative to more elite death stars like CoKs, losing even 10 or 20 of them is not that painful.
3. Next to the cauldron they are stubborn and will reroll so no worrying about breaking.
4. Not dependent on characters or magic for their damage output.
5. Not dependent on getting the charge or having higher initiative than their opponents
6. Supporting attacks do not lose effectiveness because they only have 1 attack

Cons:
1. not very customizeable because you are limited to khainite characters who can't use regular magic items.
2. Characters can't use them as a bunker
3. Bad armor save relative to CoKs
4. Fewer attacks per point than witch elves
5. Strike last means they really start to lose effectiveness once they drop below 10 or so.
6. Not as reliable at making charges and pursuit rolls as CoK


I think the real problem with bringing this many executioners is they aren't as well rounded as spending those points on Witch Elves or CoK's.

Witch Elves are cheaper, ItP, have more attacks, and each unit can buy a hag with manbane to provide 4 high S poisoned attacks for only 35 pts (less than the cost of 3 executioners). Also if you do the math, WEs with an armor piercing banner are not far behind executioners in terms of damage output.

Knights have 2+ armor, are more mobile, can easily take the ASF banner, are better at charging and pursuing, get more attacks because of their mounts, and have higher Initiative; but most importantly they are open to the usual dreadlords and sorcs you want to field.

I think Executioners can be great against certain matchups, but I wouldn't put more than 20 of them on an all-comers list.

[Ichiyo1821]

I faced a unit of 40 Executioners and they couldn't win their points back. All they fought all game were garbage units. And because my opponent had so many points tied up in that unit, I was able to handle everything else he had. If you cost more than 10 points, you don't go Horde.

12 points is not much more than 10 points. Executioners are very cheap for what you get. A block of 50 with FC and the +1 movement banner is 645 points, but you don't need to add characters to it like most death stars so its actually pretty cheap. They are already stubborn because of the cauldron, they already have crazy damage output, so there isn't a lot that characters can offer other than magic resistance. My usual CoK death star with lord, BSB, and sorceress is over 1,200 points altogether.

I advocate the COK bus but 1200 points is like asking for it. Really, I can understand that some people can take risks like failing a ld 10 re-rollable COK charge but to put your Level 4 in there AS WELL AS putting her on CO is just crazy. The unit is Dwellers resistant but If I see my opponent field a 1200 point unit I'm throwing everything at it. What kind of armies or players do you face?

How to deal with the issues people have brought up:

Mobility. People have said they can't get into combat as fast as a block of CoK's, but really there isn't a large difference. They can march 10, 12 with the movement banner, while knights can march 14, it isn't a huge difference. The bigger difference is on their charge and pursuit rolls. You don't want your uber unit to get too far from your CoB anyway so some of the knights mobility is wasted.

No and no. Certain scenarios and tournaments penalize slower armies and units. Battle for the pass is and Meeting engagement is a good example. The extra turn of shooting or the potential first turn charge can be game changing. An extra turn of a magic heavy Slaan or Empire/Skaven shooting is game breaking. Execs even with Banner of Swiftness (imo what I would put on them) can't compare to COK movement. COK also rarely fail their pursuit rolls which is vital. the last thing you want is to beat a unit in combat then fail to catch them then not get that unit's points since you have invested heavily on a COK unit (close to 400 pts)

Vulnerability to template weapons and shooting. Sure they are vulnerable, but with 50 you have 20 spare wounds, which with the cob ward save means you can absorb about 27 wounds. What you need to protect them is a Sorc with Dark Magic. Word of Pain neutralizes shooters and many war machines, Bladewind kills regular warmachines. If you know you are facing WoC bring Shadow instead. Hellcannons have an initiative of 1, and GW marauders can be initiative tested, slowed, and/or S debuffed.

20 spare wounds? 50 Execs would equal to 600+ points, more than a quarter of a 2k army allowance and you are telling me losing 20 elite infantry just so I can deal a couple of s6 KB strikes last by turn 2 or 3? Id rather not really. Word of Pain punishes 1 unit of Bs shooting and you need to burn PD to do that. Bladewind is great but against true Warmachine armies, this is not that profitable as he will have atleast 3+ warmachines all of which will be out of Bladewind's range by turn 1 and at best 2. Sure you have dealt with the Hellcanon but really a 50 man Marauder unit will kill your Execs and literally cost half as much. You can't say " I' m going after his Warriors and Knights not the Marauders with my Execs" as any opponent worth playing against is thinking "I'm not letting those anywhere near my Warriors, here take on my Marauders, we strike at the same time but I cost half as much, KB is useless anyway as we won't have armor but look you have 5+ save, fair trade."

Vs. hordes of cheap troops. SHOOT these to death and bring the Execs up later. Put RxBs in front, Exec's behind. Bait them into charging the RxBs so you can stand and shoot, then bring up the Execs to deal with the opponent's remaining elite troops and monsters.

You've spent 600 points on Execs, what else is left on your army? The only horde army with no warmachines is VC. Everything else has one. Not only are you gimping yourself by using expensive unit to later on kill 2-7 point models, you are getting shot while trying to do it.

vs. Magic. There isn't a lot you can do other than bring dispel power and try to kill the enemy mages. But you can use this as an advantage. Opponents are going to be very afraid of this unit and will throw all their magic at it. If they spend all their magic trying to kill the executioner block, that leaves the other 3/4 of your army free from having to worry about spells.

More like 1/3 as you spend points for your characters.

Pros and cons:

pros:
1. Very cheap actually for so many S6 killing blow attacks in heavy armor
2. Lots of wounds relative to more elite death stars like CoKs, losing even 10 or 20 of them is not that painful.
3. Next to the cauldron they are stubborn and will reroll so no worrying about breaking.
4. Not dependent on characters or magic for their damage output.
5. Not dependent on getting the charge or having higher initiative than their opponents
6. Supporting attacks do not lose effectiveness because they only have 1 attack

Cons:
1. not very customizeable because you are limited to khainite characters who can't use regular magic items.
2. Characters can't use them as a bunker
3. Bad armor save relative to CoKs
4. Fewer attacks per point than witch elves
5. Strike last means they really start to lose effectiveness once they drop below 10 or so.
6. Not as reliable at making charges and pursuit rolls as CoK


I think the real problem with bringing this many executioners is they aren't as well rounded as spending those points on Witch Elves or CoK's.

Witch Elves are cheaper, ItP, have more attacks, and each unit can buy a hag with manbane to provide 4 high S poisoned attacks for only 35 pts (less than the cost of 3 executioners). Also if you do the math, WEs with an armor piercing banner are not far behind executioners in terms of damage output.

Knights have 2+ armor, are more mobile, can easily take the ASF banner, are better at charging and pursuing, get more attacks because of their mounts, and have higher Initiative; but most importantly they are open to the usual dreadlords and sorcs you want to field.

I think Executioners can be great against certain matchups, but I wouldn't put more than 20 of them on an all-comers list.

Again if you don't have the bodies to soak wounds then 20 is bad. Even HE equivalent SM who get to strike first with 2 s5 attacks get shot to death even before they get into combat. 20 Execs don't belong in an all-comers list. Execs actually in my opinion on't belong in an all-comers list.

[Red...]

Pros and cons:

pros:
1. Very cheap actually for so many S6 killing blow attacks in heavy armor
2. Lots of wounds relative to more elite death stars like CoKs, losing even 10 or 20 of them is not that painful.
3. Next to the cauldron they are stubborn and will reroll so no worrying about breaking.
4. Not dependent on characters or magic for their damage output.
5. Not dependent on getting the charge or having higher initiative than their opponents
6. Supporting attacks do not lose effectiveness because they only have 1 attack

Cons:
1. not very customizeable because you are limited to khainite characters who can't use regular magic items.
2. Characters can't use them as a bunker
3. Bad armor save relative to CoKs
4. Fewer attacks per point than witch elves
5. Strike last means they really start to lose effectiveness once they drop below 10 or so.
6. Not as reliable at making charges and pursuit rolls as CoK

This is an excellent summary - not bad at all for your second post!!!

That said, I disagree with your later conclusion. I actually think a horde unit of Execs has more place in an all comers list than lots of other units, for example.

Blackguard: great against about half of the armies out there, but not so good against others. Costing 3 more points per model than a corsair/RxB, it costs a lot when they die to arrow fire, and with just S4 they can really struggle against units with T4 and/or high armour. They can't be taken as a horde, which means every casualty hurts, and Dwellers Below really hurts them too.

Witch elves: Awesome in combat, very cheap, ITP is great. But they turn into mush against sustained arrow fire or massive magic attacks. Dwellers Below really hurts them too.

CoKs: Very quick, very hard hitting, very expensive and very painful if you get caught out by some heavy artillery, magic or even massed bow/crossbow/xbow/handgun fire. They also bog down in combat if stuck there for more than a turn, due to 1 attack each at just S4. Stupidity can be a pain too.

Execs: Cheaper than BlackGuard, but still with WS5 and S6 in combat. They can be taken as a horde, which allows them to soak up some attritional damage and then still hit back hard and deep. They perform against all enemies, regardless of toughness and armour (S6 cuts through T4 like butter, and is actually quite nasty against even 1+ and 2+ armour saves, particularly if combined with the Banner of Murder). They can be made stubborn via the Cauldron and they take just 33% casualties on average from Dwellers Below, rather than the 50% average for Black Guard and Witch Elves. Their biggest weakness, imo, is Ld8, as failing fear tests is a bummer.

P.S. Yes, I am fixating on Dwellers Below a bit, but as the nastiest spell in the game - which is available to a suprisingly large number of good armies - it's a pain in the backside when it happens. Nothing more frustrating than that Empire/Wood Elf/High Elf/Lizardmen/Bretonnia army smacking your big tasty unit of elite troops with an irresistible casting and watching half of your unit disappear!

[Saintofm]

What about a unit that was four ranks deep and seven models wide? Would that work, or no?

[Ichiyo1821]

That said, I disagree with your later conclusion. I actually think a horde unit of Execs has more place in an all comers list than lots of other units, for example.

Blackguard: great against about half of the armies out there, but not so good against others. Costing 3 more points per model than a corsair/RxB, it costs a lot when they die to arrow fire, and with just S4 they can really struggle against units with T4 and/or high armour. They can't be taken as a horde, which means every casualty hurts, and Dwellers Below really hurts them too.

Witch elves: Awesome in combat, very cheap, ITP is great. But they turn into mush against sustained arrow fire or massive magic attacks. Dwellers Below really hurts them too.

CoKs: Very quick, very hard hitting, very expensive and very painful if you get caught out by some heavy artillery, magic or even massed bow/crossbow/xbow/handgun fire. They also bog down in combat if stuck there for more than a turn, due to 1 attack each at just S4. Stupidity can be a pain too.

Execs: Cheaper than BlackGuard, but still with WS5 and S6 in combat. They can be taken as a horde, which allows them to soak up some attritional damage and then still hit back hard and deep. They perform against all enemies, regardless of toughness and armour (S6 cuts through T4 like butter, and is actually quite nasty against even 1+ and 2+ armour saves, particularly if combined with the Banner of Murder). They can be made stubborn via the Cauldron and they take just 33% casualties on average from Dwellers Below, rather than the 50% average for Black Guard and Witch Elves. Their biggest weakness, imo, is Ld8, as failing fear tests is a bummer.

P.S. Yes, I am fixating on Dwellers Below a bit, but as the nastiest spell in the game - which is available to a suprisingly large number of good armies - it's a pain in the backside when it happens. Nothing more frustrating than that Empire/Wood Elf/High Elf/Lizardmen/Bretonnia army smacking your big tasty unit of elite troops with an irresistible casting and watching half of your unit disappear!

Against what you say?

BG. They are stubborn and ITP with or without a Cauldron and can hold a flank of their own and grind almost anything except Knights where they might struggle. They have initiative 6 and can hit almost everything first except HE and Lord level characters that are not humans. They are s4 making them as resilient to Dwellers as COK and Execs. Their only downfall is they cap at 20 meaning you just need to pick your targets or assign them a role as a flank holder or hammer unit.

WE. They deal horrendous damage to horde units and monsters, Banner of Flame being their most popular banner. They are ITP and could also be stubborn with a COB nearby. High initiative also means they deal all their attacks first therefore can negate steadfast easier and at 10 points each they are golden.

For the first two examples, you die anyway to almost every form of shooting that is prevalent in this edition. Warmachines of Empire, Dwarves, Skaven and even Bretonnia are either s5 or no armor save at all making armor save redundant. BG are 5+, Execs are 5+, WE are naked. Putting the debate that WE are less survivable to Execs against shooting is a thing of the past.

COK. They are fast thus less turns getting shot at and resilient with their 2+ as. Now with the prevalence of COB, the downfalls of a COK unit is barely there. You can get 2+/5++ on a unit that is effectively ITP. On their own they are I6 can deal a hell lot of damage on the charge specially if you buff them with the COB +1 attack. They are resilient to Dwellers, Pit of Shades and at 5-6 front 2 deep, they are not as cumbersome and hard to maneuver as say a block of Execs 7-10 wide making warmachines less likely to hit them than the latter. With Banner of Hag Graef they become even better. Not only do you strike first against even He, your CO themselves get to hit first with s4. Against LM and Dwarfs they strike first and even get a re-roll to hit. On latter combats because of SoHG you strike first again and retain your "hatred" and since you are already in combat, the COB blessing again makes you hit at s4 with 2 attacks per knight + 1 for a CO making it 3 S4 attacks in prolonged combats provided they even survive the 18++ S6 attacks it dealt earlier. Put a stubborn Dreadlord there and call it a day.

How can any of those three come after Execs? Execs need the numbers to even be effective. They are only effective against a certain number of enemies which will often be avoided by any general worth his salt as compared to the other 3 which you can almost throw at anything and still be effective. They are not as expensive as a 30-50 man Exec unit whose use is situational but die just as fast anyway. It is always better to spread your threats making it harder for your opponent to decide who to target. A block of COK and a Hydra is almost as high in points as 50 Execs and much harder to take out than a single unit and has more chances of handling multiple levels of threat.

With the exception of dealing with Characters and Knights, BG,WE and COK can do everything better than Executioners in any true all-comers list


P.S. About BG and Dwellers, no matter how you add it up, even if 10 out of BG die, the entire unit is 1/3 the price of 50 Execs. If 33% die as compare to that of BG, atleast I have the points spent elsewhere. Go ahead Dwellers my BG, I have 2 other hammer units and they are ITP and will never panic. A singe Dwellers on Execs who fail their ld test is points and time gone. Yes you have a COB nearby, what if it fails? You'd have lost all your hitting power. 600 points + 225 BSB is 800++ points, almost half of 2k to 2500 armies. At higher point levels you can be taking more Hydras, more COK, more Spearmen or Corsairs who get better with higher magic levels that you normally find in large games. I love my Execs but for now they warm the benches with my the Bolt thrower crew and Manticores.

[Red...]

Black Guard

BG. They are stubborn and ITP with or without a Cauldron and can hold a flank of their own and grind almost anything except Knights where they might struggle. They have initiative 6 and can hit almost everything first except HE and Lord level characters that are not humans. They are s4 making them as resilient to Dwellers as COK and Execs.

Sorry, that's factually inaccurate. BG are S3 with halberds. And there are lots of things that BG struggle against, including:

- Heavy Cavalry: Empire Knights, Brettonnia Knights, WoC knights, Cold One Knights, etc etc
- Chariots and monsters with high saves: Steam Tanks, Hydras, Dark Elf Chariots, High Elf Chariots, O&G Chariots, etc etc
- Heavy Infantry: Chaos Warriors with 3+ saves, Dwarf Warriors with 3+ saves.
- Heck, even troops with light armour and shield get a 6+ save against them!

Sure, an Armour Piercing banner helps a bit, but not enough.

And don't get me started on using them against T4 foes. Run your blackguard unit into a big unit of orcs and see if that changes your mind. Wounding on 4s versus super cheap models sucks big time.

Ultimately, Black Guard really struggle against heavy infantry or cavalry. Combined with their unit cap of 20 and high cost, this limits their temptation value as an auto include.

Witch Elves

WE. They deal horrendous damage to horde units and monsters, Banner of Flame being their most popular banner. They are ITP and could also be stubborn with a COB nearby. High initiative also means they deal all their attacks first therefore can negate steadfast easier and at 10 points each they are golden.

No armour save. Period. Against any gun or missile line they vanish astonishingly quickly. S3 really struggles against foes with high armour too. Even with the cauldron, I don't believe in relying on 6s to wound to win the day, it's way too fickle.

Hydras = crispy kebab versus too many things these days. Bowmen with flaming sword of rhuin. S4 foes with the flaming banner. They all hurt a lot. Sure, take one if you know you're not up against any fire missiles or magic, but that's not very useful in an all comers list, because more often than not you'll be facing opponents who have access to flaming spells (lore of fire, lore of metal, lore of Tzeentch, etc) or missile fire.

CoKs. The problem with a 2+ armour save on a model that costs nearly 30 points is that every failed save REALLY hurts. And again, once you start facing S4+ or AP foes, that save tumbles pretty quickly. Heck, even facing a line of our RxBs spells a headache. And again, come turn 2 in a round of combat and you're going to struggle to do any real damage versus T4 and heavily armoured foes.

Now here's the thing about a horde of Execs for me:

- They are cheaper than BG
- They have an okay 5+ armour save. As a horde unit, they can soak up a bit of damage before becoming useless.
- They synergise very well with the Cauldron: stubborn and a 5+ ward save? Yes please.
- They can be taken in a horde, unlike BG
- They hit at S6 which means no matter what kind of foe you are facing you are going to do some serious damage (not like the ping pinging of those S3 and S4 attacks of our other troops)
- As a horde they can dish out a sick number of attacks even against horde armies. 31 attacks at WS5 and S6 = a lot of dead anything, be it goblins or chaos warriors.
- If you are really worried about the ASL element, then add a death hag BSB and stick her on the end of the line. Don't accept any challenges with her and, even if she is killed during the first round of combat, you will get at least one full combat round where you strike at I5 (the same or better than most opposing troops, except high elves).


That all said, I think the overall problem at the moment is that there is no peerless Dark Elf special choice. They all have very good strengths, but also lots of nagging weaknesses. That's probably how it should be: Dark Elves have and always will be a deadly lethal force, but only when finessed.[/b]

[Ichiyo1821]

Oh yes I forgot about that one my bad.

The problem is you are missing the point that a horde of Execs take too many points for minimal benefits as oppose to multiple units that you can mismatch several army builds hence "all-comers". Sure Executioners do very well against knights and Warriors of Chaos but how many of that do you face that you need a horde of s6 ASL t3 5+ guys? If you are spending 600 points on Execs what is left of your army? What use is S6 KB when all your opponent throws at you are Night Goblins or Clan Rats, Slaves etc etc. You are paying premium price for a unit whose role can be fulfilled by one at half or a third of the price. Sure BG can't kill Knights as reliable as Executioners but is a unit's killing power it's only gauge for competitiveness? Sure you can argue that Execs can also be Stubborn with COB but that is exactly my case. A 200 point BG can survive and hold a flank unsupported while the rest of your 2200 army go about as compared to throwing a large chunk of your army to handle an insubstantial threat but a threat nonetheless. Run down the number of ideal enemy units an effective Exec horde can handle to what a combination WE, COK or BG or even Corsairs for that matter of the same pointage can and you'll see the only things Execs have an advantage are armored knights. That alone is enough justification. Who has knights or heavily armored units?

Chaos Warriors -2 or so small units
Bretonnian Knights- 3-4 Bret trains
Empire Knights- one block of 10 perhaps
Bloodknights- 5-7 knights
Cold One Knights- 5-10
Dragon Princes 5- 10
Dragons 1 per 2500 game or not even
Dwarves - Warriors, Longbeards mostly the rest managable

Everything else
Entire Skaven Army
Goblin Themed Army
Orc n Goblins with the exception of Black Orcs but then still not really
Empire Army except Steamtank but moot point as Execs still wound on 6 and ST still gets 4+
VC - except Bloodknights
Beastmen
Deamons (any build)
HE army
WE army
DE army
WOC - Marauder horde list
Tomb Kings -
Ogres t4 almost no armor buggers

Any of our Specials can handle more threats at a cheaper price as MSU against entire armies as opposed to Execs that can obliterate specific units that can be handled by other means such as redirection or multicharging. Killing models out right is not the only way to win. That is what multiple units are for, to gain ACR and SRC at the same time but ofcourse you already know that. I will always prefer 2-3 units of mine multicharging one unit that to go head to head 1 uber unit per uber unit any day. For 600 points that buy me 2 Hydras and 1 unit of 30 Spears. I will take the latter any time. 3 threats, 3 units that are multi-dimensional. If the Execs can't kill, they are useless, if they kill something that are not worth their enormous price tag, its rare that they actually "pay for themselves". i don't know how you could say that Execs are ever a better all-comers choice for our specials.

[Red...]

Who has knights or heavily armored units?

Chaos Warriors -2 or so small units
Bretonnian Knights- 3-4 Bret trains
Empire Knights- one block of 10 perhaps
Bloodknights- 5-7 knights
Cold One Knights- 5-10
Dragon Princes 5- 10
Dragons 1 per 2500 game or not even
Dwarves - Warriors, Longbeards mostly the rest managable

Cold One Riders
Silver Helms
Black Knights
Ironbreakers
The new Ogre cavalry
Chaos Chosen
Chaos Knights
Dragon Ogres
Dark Elf Chariots
Chaos Chariots
Orc Boar Boyz
Orc and Goblin Chariots
Tomb King Knights
The list goes on actually...

[Cold73]

This certainly has become an interesting topic.

Executioners are certainly very good troops in my opinion.
High WS; High S. Easily capable of taking out a full unit of knights.
They only thing they have against them is the Always Strike Last special rule.
But that might even be avoided by adding a Death Hag BSB with the Standard of Hag Graef in that unit. (Or am i mistaken on that?)

There are 3 reasons I would never use executioners in unit of more 25-30 man.
1) Opponents fear units with Killing Blow
2) Opponents fear units larger then 25 man
3) Opponents fear two-handen weapons since they can damage most units with ease.

These reasons all mean one thing...the opponent will focus everything he can on the Executioners. Seriously hurting them before they even get into melee.
If the executioners were cheaper i wouldnt really mind....every shot they fire at them is one less at one of my other units....but for Executioners..... I prefer to keep them alive and full when they engage in melee. They are our special unit for a reason....they KILL.....

Personally i prefer to use a large unit of core units so my opponents have something big and easy to shoot at...and will mostly allow my special units to reach them without to many casualties

[Ichiyo1821]

Who has knights or heavily armored units?

Chaos Warriors -2 or so small units
Bretonnian Knights- 3-4 Bret trains
Empire Knights- one block of 10 perhaps
Bloodknights- 5-7 knights
Cold One Knights- 5-10
Dragon Princes 5- 10
Dragons 1 per 2500 game or not even
Dwarves - Warriors, Longbeards mostly the rest managable

Cold One Riders- check
Silver Helms-uhm poor armor save, expensive, you never really see them anymore
Black Knights - against VC they are the last thing I'd worried about...
Ironbreakers - check
The new Ogre cavalry - Mournfangs hurt but not too much of them
Chaos Chosen - hardly used
Chaos Knights - check but they are mostly 5-7
Dragon Ogres - lol
Dark Elf Chariots - not like you will get the charge on them nor will they charge you unassisted, in that case why are you targeting the chariots?
Chaos Chariots - won't see them much
Orc Boar Boyz - check
Orc and Goblin Chariots - won't see them as often as you would like
Tomb King Knights - lol
The list goes on actually...

The list goes on but how many of that do you actually see being fielded by competent generals? Do you really need a horde of Execs to handle those? Hydras, COK, Dreadlords, magic can handle all of that easily and you need not get out of the way of your "normal" DE roster. It's the rest of his army that we have trouble killing either due to numbers or special rules for example say lots of Ghouls, Clanrats or Steamtanks and well placed artillery with engineers, Slaan magic etc etc.

[Lord Drakon]

I collected in total 50 executioners models now as I love the models, but more importantly, my force will be that of Har Ganeth. So as you can imagine topics about executioners like this one are really useful in the forming of my army list. The most consensus seems to be in units of 21, 24 or 30, and they have to be buffed by the COB.

So what about the option of two big units of 24 (6 * 4) of Executioners, in combination of a COB?

My list will likely also bring a gun line of RXB and RB, chaf units of DR, Shades (incl. assassins) and WE. But I can imagine that other player will combine this with double hydra, COK etc.

What are your thoughts?

[Dalamar]

I would wait a week. Our new book comes out and from the looks of it CoB will change drastically (like it did from 6th to 7th ed book).

I'd say executioners will get better simply due to ASF, but CoB might become a very limited use machine.