Executioners!

[Dalamar]

After the Buckeye Battles, where I got my behind handed to me rather solidly, I have realized a number of things.

1. I have been out of competitive Warhammer for far too long and need to get back to it.
2. Massed shooting, without access to crazy template war machines, no matter how powerful, can't reliably deal with deep ranked units.

With those points in mind I had to come up with a new idea. An idea of breaking tough, ranked up units. We do have a weapon perfect for the job - Executioners! But, they have their large, glaring weaknesses. For those who haven't tried using executioners before, here they are:

1. Always Strikes Last - this is the biggest issue they have hands down, not being able to strike before your opponent means higher casualties, and only way to prevent higher casualties is to increase the survivability or remove ASL. Unfortunately we have no access to Lore of Light (which would give us access to Birona's Timewarp for ASF, nor to Lore of Life, which would allow us to field T5-7 execs. What we do have access to is:
Dark Magic - WS1 enemies won't hit many execs, Death Magic - Soulblight makes Execs a little more survivable, Shadow Magic - Miasma and Enfeebling Foe will definitely make Execs last longer and Metal Magic - Glittering Robe will make their armor on par with chaos chosen.
And don't forget the most important thing that only better tactics will allow and fickle magic is not involved - the less models can attack you, the less will hit you - Frontal charges are a suicide, that's what Warriors are for, Rear charges are great CR boosters and opponent's morale breakers but allow more models to hit you back (units tend to be wider than they're deep). Flank charges are your friend! Usually only 4-5 models will be able to hit you back, and for each rank you manage to remove, that's one model less to hit you (something hard to achieve in 8th edition). Of course never forget about the Cauldron and 5+ ward.
2. No matter how hard they hit, they are still only T3 AS 5+ elves. Lets face it, if you're playing Dark Elves you should be used to the fact that our warriors die when someone looks at them sideways. This weakness is overcome in the same ways.
3. Try as they might, they are infantry, M5 doesn't allow for much in terms of maneuverability but it's still better than most armies. Standard of Swiftness will help in a pinch.
4. Ld8 - While this may be high for most armies, this is low for us. And when our units fail their Ld tests we feel the pain. I remember one game where my Executioners were ready to flank charge a unit of temple guard with slann... but they were hit by a stray salamander template, a couple died and they ran off due to failed panic. They rallied the next turn but the Slann unit recovered by then.

Before anyone says: "Use Death Hag BSB with Banner of Hag Graef" - I won't. Not because I want to deliberately handicap myself, but because I believe a death hag bsb is a weakness for the unit, T3 2W model with no protection whatsoever, in a world of large blocks she will likely be dead after first round of combat, second if she's lucky. Anything stronger than core troops and she will definitely be dead after first round.

Having a unit only take part in one combat throughout the course of the game is not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on how important that combat was. Were your executioners bogged down by a core unit? They probably weren't worth it. Did your executioners cut a bloody swathe through enemy heavy cavalry? They can probably retire for the rest of the game as that cavalry would have likely ran over your other units.

In this thread I'm planning to report my current experiment:
30 Executioners with full command and CoB support. Banner is irrelevant. First time I used them today, they had the scarecrow banner since I had spare 5 points... and my opponent had no flying units. Next game they might have another banner, or none at all.

Here's their performance in a game against Vampire Counts:
Turn 1: Walk into a forest, discover it's a wildwood, two execs die to branches.
Turn 2: Attempt to walk out of the forest, there were Black Knights waiting on the other side so they chose to exit to the side, last rank remained in forest but none died to insane trees.
Turn 3: Walk towards Black Knights who are facing sideways (they were also threatened by Cold One Knights and blocked by Harpies)
Turn 4: After Black Knights reformed to have both my knights and execs in front, their nearest corner was now 10" away so execs charged, blessed by CoB with +1 attack. In combat I lost about 5 execs, but return 19 attacks (they were 6 wide) resulted in 5 Killing Blows, 5 Wounds and 4 failed saves. 9 Wounds on a unit of 8 Black Knights and the undead went up in splintered bone. Execs reform towards horde of 50 Ghouls and are joined by Knights who still haven't seen a single combat.
Turn 5: Execs and Knights march up to the horde, which tried to charge a hydra but failed due to not enough room to maneuver, and stopped 1" away from a building, 10" away from the execs and 15" away from knights.
Turn 6: Execs, Knights and Hydra charge the horde of ghouls, sandwiching it. Hydra was on last wound and died to poison, Knights attacked first, removing regeneration from the unit and killing about 6 ghouls. Ghouls failed to kill any knight then Execs proceeded to swing and kill 10 ghouls (with 13 attacks as cauldron was busy giving KB to crossbowmen in combat with a vamp lord). Three quarters of the unit disappears after this devastating charge, out of 50 ghouls and a necromancer, 18 ghouls and a wounded necromancer remained. And we still had my opponent's turn to do. Following round, Knights and Execs killed enough to win the combat by about 13, with 4 ghouls and necro left to crumble.

My army in a pinch:
Level 2 Death sorc on peg
Cauldron
40 Warriors
20 Crossbowmen
3x 5 Harpies
5 Dark Riders
30 Executioners
10 Cold One Knights
2 Cold One Chariots
War Hydra.

Opponent's Army
Level 3 Vampire lord
Level 2 necro
Level 1 death necro
20 Grave Guard with Great weapons and banner of the barrows (+1 to hit)
20 Grave Guard with HW/Shield
50 Ghouls
10 Dire Wolves in a single unit
Mortis Engine
8 Black Knights with screaming banner (take fear test on 3 dice picking 2 highest)

Conclusion:
Executioners didn't reach combat until turn 4, they still proved crucial to the result of the game. First, they and knights held Black Knights at bay, because nobody wants to be charged by either one, and with my harpies ready there was no way he'd get a charge on me easily. One could argue that it was the black knights who held up over 600 of my points on one flank, but the rest of my army was standing up to the rest of my opponent's army with little trouble as I had enough re-directors and large units to hold the line. My army was surprisingly large for an elven army - 125 models all thanks to going VERY light on characters.
So Execs didn't see combat till turn 4, Knights didn't see combat till turn 6... But at the end of turn 4 they were both *Behind Enemy Lines* able to pick rear charges at leisure. Ask any player and they will have a handful of stories of how their game turned around on turn 6 from sure win to a bad loss... or from a loss to a massacre win.

Footnote:
Executioners don't need a death hag BSB to be effective, they don't need to be 40 strong ran in a horde formation (my opponent's horde was a liability to him as he got stuck on a building multiple times and was unable to advance). They need to be used where they will be able to bring the most bang for their buck. Pick your targets right, out deploy your opponent so you place them in a favorable match up, do your best to kill off chaff that would try to delay them and protect them from any ranged attacks. If you need to, deploy them on far flanks away from action - Executioners coming in turn 6 to deliver the killing blow while still 30 strong is more valuable than losing 20 execs to shooting and rest to a decisive charge.

Appendix:
Units Execs excel against - Low A targets, Cavalry, Monsters, some Elite Infantry. Generally the higher S the target has the better as those tend to have lower number of attacks. Heavy Cav is usually 1 per model with a few exceptions. Monsters range from 4-7. 4 attacks won't kill many execs, 7 will kill some more, but after a single round of combat that monster should be on a brink of death and not rampaging through your low S units!.
Units Execs are terrible against - Monstrous Cavalry, Core Infantry, high A count enemies. Elves wear paper bags for armor, you don't have to hit them hard, you just have to hit them often. In a match up Execs vs Witch Elves I'd always bet on Witch Elves, and they're cheaper. Monstrous Cavalry stay away from as they tend to be a part of the high A count list, with one exception. If you can get a flank charge with your executioners on a unit of monstrous cav - take it and never look back! Core Infantry is a bad idea in general as you don't want your elves to end up in a war of attrition. Execs might cut their way through 50 skeletons face to face, but your will end up with a unit that is no longer useful for anything. If you get unlucky you might even lose them to a cheaper Core.

So that's about it. I try to play once a week and that's how often I expect updates to show up, in the meantime feel free to discuss merits of one of the best, and one of the hardest to use units in Warhammer.

[Azimyth]

Heh! Finally you have seen the light(or dark, depending on your preference )
Try a unit of 40 with the leadership or flaming banner. A horde of executioners is a veritable beat stick. The flaming banner is a sneaky fix against the black knights, you cause fear in cavalry, so you no longer fear them.
Use the Cauldron, giving them a 5+ ward and you can grind your way through almost all of the nastiest units out there.
I agree with you on the death hag with hag graef, I also find her a bit too squishy.

[Dalamar]

I don't want to use 40 and the argument why is in the post. Sure 30 attacks is something not many units can stand up against, but the unit also becomes over 500 points (with full command and a magic banner). With 40 in the unit you also want them to strike first since they are so unwieldy... cue death hag. 30 is my perfect number. Large enough to take some casualties and small enough to go under the radar.

In this game my knights had the flaming banner. Their higher initiative meant they removed regen before anything else struck.

Cauldron was of course used. Execs don't need it all the time though as in the last turns cauldron was trying to force a KB on vampire lorx.

[Prince daerlythe]

Personally, I prefer Execs with the Banner of Swiftness. Screened by 5 harpies, they're almost as fast as the CoK and make a very effective flank unit that can rapid charge most chaff units, who tend to be both poor combatants (WS, S, T @3, 1A) and few in number. Never underestimate getting an extra 1" on the charge. They'll think they're out of range, until you cut a swathe through them.

There is nothing more Druchii in this game than taking an easy picking while moving into position.

[Geist]

I am sorry that you feel this way Dalamar. While exe's are very good and do their job extremely well, they can benefit well from a death hag and being in a 40 man unit. I have used a death hag bsb countless times in exes and out of them, and while she has died a few times to being overly soft, she more than makes its up in her sheer hand to hand power. I have been testing my very boring list that is tittled Bayou Battles in the army thread, and as of late it ends up being the only unit left and just mows throw everything. Of course I only loose the other units in games where the odds are against me or I have just played badly. But that being said the unit always ends up being a total beat stick. Now let me see if I can address some of the problems you have with having a hag bsb.
1 Challenges can be your savior. The right unit with an easy enough to kill character can be the ideal place to put the death hag. This is not a constant effect, but it happens enough.
2 When you charge a unit set it up so that the death hag is on the corner and in base to base with as few as possible, it is also possible to set it up so that the death hag is not even in contact. This can be great because most of the time she wont need to make way and just sit there and the unit just sit there and kill em all.
3 Challenges refusing the right one, if some one issues and you don't want to risk it refuse it and head to the back. Keep the cauldron near by and your a stubborn 9 that wont break. Cant get a reroll leader but stubborn 9 and odds are most of the time you will be the one winning.
4 If you add another hag or a assassin, and let your unit champ take the challenge, you will kill a crap ton of guys just with 2 models.
5 Lets have an honest look at which units can really threaten the hag.

Chaos knights wont be wide enough and if they have a unit champ he must issue a challenge. That champ is dead, even if he is a nurlge marked. 5 attacks base at st 5 ap plus d3 extra. The champ is dead, only need one wound.
Chaos characters same problem until lord level and then you just suck them out with your champ.
Chaos warriors, same problem. Very few will be running a horde 30 or 40 brick. Even if they do you have a 5++ they at best have a 6++. So good luck to them.

That covers the most hard core fighting unit in the game. Skull crushers are in the same boat, and I am sorry I highly disagree that exes will suffer against monsters inf or cav. You will swing at same time or better, you are base -3 save, with lore of metal or ap banner -4 with the ability to go more. So that unit will just poof. Against other elves?

Lets take a look at that, if they swing before you the st will not be greater than a 4, with your ward save thats ok. Worst case is your onto wards only, and then you swing back with rerolls. Sure it hurts but they will be hurt worse.

While there are countless variations and permutations of combat, effects units and what can happen where, most of the cases support the exes being superior in combat. Tossing extra bodies in for shooting chaff is just a good idea, same for once you actually get to combat.

I know what I have said has a very low chance of making you see things other than you do now, but please do bare in mind, that having that type of character support in a unit does not just help it makes that into a unit that most of the community fears.

[Dalamar]

I see your 40 Executioners with a *frenzied* hag and I raise you multiple units of harpies having fun with half of your army for the entire game.
I honestly don't see how a unit like that can be effective against an opponent with enough chaff to deal with it. Then a charge into both flanks and those execs are toast.

I agree that if execs with a hag have an open field and all you need to do is march forward (don't even need to charge) then they will slaughter everything in their way. Sadly, most games don't happen that way.

You're saying opposing elites won't be wide enough to kill the hag... but who cares about elites? I would set my warriors 10 wide and put 6 attacks into the death hag. Doing 2 wounds is not that hard.

100 skaven slaves would grind this unit down. slowly and painfully, but at a quarter of the cost.

[Geist]

I see your 40 Executioners with a *frenzied* hag and I raise you multiple units of harpies having fun with half of your army for the entire game.
I honestly don't see how a unit like that can be effective against an opponent with enough chaff to deal with it. Then a charge into both flanks and those execs are toast.

I agree that if execs with a hag have an open field and all you need to do is march forward (don't even need to charge) then they will slaughter everything in their way. Sadly, most games don't happen that way.

You're saying opposing elites won't be wide enough to kill the hag... but who cares about elites? I would set my warriors 10 wide and put 6 attacks into the death hag. Doing 2 wounds is not that hard.

100 skaven slaves would grind this unit down. slowly and painfully, but at a quarter of the cost.

The first problem rarely happens due to my own counter chaff and repeater fire.
There are ways to handle being flank charged and with being stubborn you dont break that easy.
Warriors set 10 wide will not do the job, you would need a ungodly number of them 30 to 40 (assuming this is warriors of chaos), and even then there is the must issue challenge problem. Which makes the hag safe. Also again you can set it so that your BSB does not make contact.
100 slaves could do it and they did do it me ONCE. There are so many ways to keep her safe and alive in a skaven conflict. Hit the flank of a skaven brick, easy enough given how large they are. Be the one charging so that you can set up how you want. Place a flying unit in the way so that they cant make contact.

I keep giving you valid tried and true methods and you keep acting like they can not happen. You started this thread off admitting change was a must, well take it another step forward and admit to yourself that things that you are not overly familer with can work as well. How many times have you actually honestly tried to make a hag bsb work? Almost all my Dark Elf rosters use a death hag BSB. In fact only a score of my rosters (less than 6 out of about 60, yah I have no life I make rosters all the time), use a none hag bsb. One of those is my flying BSB, the other is my cold one BSB who ran with cold one knights. Thats it, the other 50ish all ran a death hag in some unit or another. Shade star, corsairs, repeater crossbow star(that was a very interesting roster) and of course with exes. I think I have learned a trick or two about how to make a large block of frenzied guys not just do as told, but not get their glorious bsb killed as well.

I am far and way from perfect in this game, I am also no push over. When I tracked my wins over at RHQ.com I was page 1 or 2. Not just for a few days for years. Yes I am boasting just a tad, as should anyone who makes it the the near top of over 3k tracked players. But it does make a point, that I have a vague clue of what I am doing. I have never made it to the summit, but always been painfully close.

[Dalamar]

I was talking Dark Elf Warriors, 40 of them set 10 wide. Assuming equal numbers reach combat, two full files will get to attack (champion will just refuse the challenge, no biggy).

8 attacks against the Hag - 6 hits after hatred - 3 wounds. If she has 5+ ward that turns into 2 wounds, she's still dead. Bear in mind those were elves, lets take clanrats for another example, no hatred reroll so only 4 will hit and 2 wound, she's still dead in first round of combat. I'd just make myself 12 wide to get at least 9 attacks against her anyway (now being more narrow that my unit, execs would have to hit the middle so most models fight, putting death hag in base contact with 3 files).

Of course repeater fire and chaff vs chaff war decides a lot, but when doing theoryhammer you can't effectively take any of them into account because calculations become near impossible. Enough said, if I have 3 units of harpies sitting behind my own units, so you shoot them at additional -2, and only fly out to redirect execs one at a time, even if you kill them right away, they have still done their job stopping your movement.

Skaven Slaves is just an example, I wouldn't expect a horde of execs get far after getting hit by two WLC templates and possibly a doomrocket on turn 1. Against heavy shooting army your horde will reach the enemy lines in tatters because they have a giant shoot me sign over them (might as well paint a bullseye on their banner)

I'm not saying horde of execs with a death hag bsb can't work. I know people who use it all the time. I find it a crutch and a liability that can be exploited by a smart opponent. Perhaps your opponents range in the category (far too common at that) of "whine about an overpowered unit and not try to figure out how to beat it".

As you realized, the point of the thread is to show that horde of execs is not the only way to go. It's been done before, obviously it can work in certain settings and specific lists. But I see any unit that consists of about a quarter of our army as a big liability. Only exception to that rule I have is big flying monsters as they make up their cost with their ability to avoid what hurts them the most.

Let me ask you a few questions though as I'm interested in how you handle that horde. A couple scenarios so to speak.

Deployment: With an expensive unit like this you likely have less drops than opponent. You put down your horde, and your opponent places a horde of skaven slaves right in front of it. small one, say 50. You can see that your opponent has enough shooting/chaff that your own chaff will struggle staying alive. What's your strategy?

Redirecting: Your 10 wide executioners are stopped by a unit of dire wolves, aligned with the 10th exec in line but sideways to the unit, so if you charge them, you will make a 90 degree wheel and face towards the side (and due to Death Hag will have to overrun, leaving your flank exposed to the entire army of the enemy. What's your plan?

Shooting: You face a gunline with many, well protected template war machines, we're talking mortars/catapults/WLCs. Single small template will cover a 3rd of your unit, large one will hit about half. They will have at least 1 turn of shooting, possibly 2 and if well protected even 3 or more. How do you cross the field before Execs become useless?

[Geist]

I was talking Dark Elf Warriors, 40 of them set 10 wide. Assuming equal numbers reach combat, two full files will get to attack (champion will just refuse the challenge, no biggy).

8 attacks against the Hag - 6 hits after hatred - 3 wounds. If she has 5+ ward that turns into 2 wounds, she's still dead. Bear in mind those were elves, lets take clanrats for another example, no hatred reroll so only 4 will hit and 2 wound, she's still dead in first round of combat. I'd just make myself 12 wide to get at least 9 attacks against her anyway (now being more narrow that my unit, execs would have to hit the middle so most models fight, putting death hag in base contact with 3 files).

Of course repeater fire and chaff vs chaff war decides a lot, but when doing theoryhammer you can't effectively take any of them into account because calculations become near impossible. Enough said, if I have 3 units of harpies sitting behind my own units, so you shoot them at additional -2, and only fly out to redirect execs one at a time, even if you kill them right away, they have still done their job stopping your movement.

Skaven Slaves is just an example, I wouldn't expect a horde of execs get far after getting hit by two WLC templates and possibly a doomrocket on turn 1. Against heavy shooting army your horde will reach the enemy lines in tatters because they have a giant shoot me sign over them (might as well paint a bullseye on their banner)

I'm not saying horde of execs with a death hag bsb can't work. I know people who use it all the time. I find it a crutch and a liability that can be exploited by a smart opponent. Perhaps your opponents range in the category (far too common at that) of "whine about an overpowered unit and not try to figure out how to beat it".

As you realized, the point of the thread is to show that horde of execs is not the only way to go. It's been done before, obviously it can work in certain settings and specific lists. But I see any unit that consists of about a quarter of our army as a big liability. Only exception to that rule I have is big flying monsters as they make up their cost with their ability to avoid what hurts them the most.

Let me ask you a few questions though as I'm interested in how you handle that horde. A couple scenarios so to speak.

Deployment: With an expensive unit like this you likely have less drops than opponent. You put down your horde, and your opponent places a horde of skaven slaves right in front of it. small one, say 50. You can see that your opponent has enough shooting/chaff that your own chaff will struggle staying alive. What's your strategy?

Redirecting: Your 10 wide executioners are stopped by a unit of dire wolves, aligned with the 10th exec in line but sideways to the unit, so if you charge them, you will make a 90 degree wheel and face towards the side (and due to Death Hag will have to overrun, leaving your flank exposed to the entire army of the enemy. What's your plan?

Shooting: You face a gunline with many, well protected template war machines, we're talking mortars/catapults/WLCs. Single small template will cover a 3rd of your unit, large one will hit about half. They will have at least 1 turn of shooting, possibly 2 and if well protected even 3 or more. How do you cross the field before Execs become useless?

D R and S

D Engage the unit in question, focus fire with repeaters towards which ever warmachines that I can target. Land lord so that bsb is behind cover and can not be engaged in combat. Align charging exes so that bsb is not in contact. First few turns will be rough but depending on mission and how the game plays out should work in the long run.

R With direwolves in the way that is fine, I over run fairly far from rest of battle line. My unit is now where it works best in the middle of low ws low initiative troops with no armour save to speak of. If my flank is truly in jeopardy then I land my lord on the flank to take the brunt of any charges. Use harpies to redirect anything that the exes cant truly handle. Which in a vc list are far and few between.

S The only option in a case like this (which we will call empire as that would be skaven twice and that makes lil sense to address it thus). Harpies and lord fly out at best speed towards warmachines, not all will make it but enough will to either engage or silence the guns for a turn. Exes will take hits this is a given, so we must get ward and better armour save buffs up asap. Repeaters can maybe provide some respite, I have had a lucky cannon die due to mass fire. Some times 20 shots at long range is all you need.

Are these plans a given? No what they are is tactics that work for me,

[Calisson]

Interesting discussion,
thanks Dalamar and Geist for showing us the merits of your respective approaches.

[Cold73]

Indeed...well spoken both of you.
I've used the 40 Executioner horde with Death Hag BSB and have either won big which didnt really need many tactics..or i lost handily.
Since neither is my preference I've decided to use other units.

But I think I will use the 30 strong Executioner block on the side some time.
No way to know how i like that untill i try them...

[Azimyth]

If you are not hording the executioners 30 is a good number. How wide would you field them?

If you do horde them, my opinion is 30 with hag bsb or 40 without. I tend not to field lord characters, so my hero slots are fully utilised hence my preference for 40

[Setomidor]

I've been playing with non-ASF Executioners a lot and I have rarely been disappointed with how they perform (for a post-tournament review see Executioner Horde - A Love Story). I usually run mine about 32-35 models strong with a musician and maybe a champion, which weights in at about 420 pts. I wouldn't want the Hag BSB in there because the unit suddenly jumps to about be worth around 700 VPs, which is a considerable difference! At only about 420 pts I wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice them to, e.g., chance a KB on a Vampire Lord event though I run a big risk of losing the unit.

[Ichiyo1821]

My 2 cents.

With the exception of Spearmen [and even with them I rarerly do], I find it conter productive to have any DE unit to more at 40 models below the 2500 point level. For the lack of time I will assume that everyone reading this post are DE veterans. I see no real advantage of units being 40 large when we almost always go first, fast enough to get into close combat and being expensive as per model/point basis. Both Dalamar and Geist have their points and again the difference lies in the local meta. Perhaps Geist's meta is way different from Dalamar's as it is from mine thus the difference of the extra 10 bodies and the need for a WH BSB.

Again personally I agree with Dalamar that I see the BSB Witch HAg in a Exec unit to be more of a liability rather than beneficiary. I am aware of the tactics one can use as not to get the BSB killed but at the same time I am also aware that a more seasoned general can exploit it. I am more of a " the sum is greater than the parts" guy so I prefer all my units to be as much as possible independent and focused which ironically makes the synergy stronger. With a 40-man Executioner unit and a WH BSB all my points are in one tasty basket which my opponent can just magic all day or avoid. DOn't get me wrong Execs with this setup WILL MURDER all that is holy like it was Khaine's Bachelor's party but the problem is what else will be on the board when all your points are there. It's a miss or hit thing, if you face WOC and the likes, that one unit pointsink deathstar will seem like the best thing since pie, but face Skaven, OnG with NG spam, VC and Empire Arty shooting party and suddenly it becomes one ugly buffet.

I think you get the gist of my experience with Execs. In my local meta, I face A LOT of arti shooting from all across the board, Skaven, Empire, OnG ith lotsa Divers and Lobbas hell almost all Brets in our area field 2 Trebs! This is on top of other HE, DE and Lizardmen with a bucketful of 5-6 Skinks/ Terradon players. People in our meta have shifted from 40+ units back to 35-30 strong per unit because of this and with the addition of the new monster cav and 1+/2+ as units, people have realized that it's better to have more units as one big one will eventually just get bogged down or bounce off such units where battles are decided by just a single round or unit vs unit combat. Again it all depends on the meta and for me its safer to have a smaller unit of Executioners given that I just want them to open up armor.

[Ilmaestro]

Deployment: With an expensive unit like this you likely have less drops than opponent. You put down your horde, and your opponent places a horde of skaven slaves right in front of it. small one, say 50. You can see that your opponent has enough shooting/chaff that your own chaff will struggle staying alive. What's your strategy?

Engage the unit in question, focus fire with repeaters towards which ever warmachines that I can target. Land lord so that bsb is behind cover and can not be engaged in combat. Align charging exes so that bsb is not in contact. First few turns will be rough but depending on mission and how the game plays out should work in the long run.

I think you're sort of missing the point of the tactical conundrum here - of course you could just rush forward and engage the 50 skaven slave unit, but that is almost exactly what the opponent would want. I mean, it's easy enough to negate the implications by saying that the first few turns 'will be rough', but that's definitely an understatement imho. You're being held up by a unit that is almost 1/7th of your cost, you stand a fairly good chance in 2-3 rounds of combat (which with general + BSB re-roll you are likely to have to put up with) of losing your prized BSB, and you've simultaneously let the rest of his army avoid your uber-killy unit, or conversely weigh in to the fight and lay down some serious hurt.

I think the point of this situation is that it's not an easy one to deal with, simply because a 40 exec horde is relatively unwieldy, and if you've got no easy targets to direct against other than his cheap tar-pit, you have to weigh up taking the bait and hoping for the best (given the situation) or trying to outmaneuver his army. A bit more complex than 'engage and hope'.

Redirecting: Your 10 wide executioners are stopped by a unit of dire wolves, aligned with the 10th exec in line but sideways to the unit, so if you charge them, you will make a 90 degree wheel and face towards the side (and due to Death Hag will have to overrun, leaving your flank exposed to the entire army of the enemy. What's your plan?

With direwolves in the way that is fine, I over run fairly far from rest of battle line. My unit is now where it works best in the middle of low ws low initiative troops with no armour save to speak of. If my flank is truly in jeopardy then I land my lord on the flank to take the brunt of any charges. Use harpies to redirect anything that the exes cant truly handle. Which in a vc list are far and few between.

Again, I think you've trivialised this situation - if it were in your best interest to charge the dire wolves and overrun perpendicular (or thereabouts) to your own battle line, he wouldn't offer that sort of scenario. The thing is, that's not the case. The whole point of the dire wolf redirect is that it forces one of three scenarios.

1) You don't charge, hoping that you can clear the dire wolves with shooting+magic+psychology and therefore still have your unit in place to charge whatever target is behind the wolves that they were protecting, thus using your execs as you need them to be used. Downside is that you probably don't move forward much (if at all), and are exposed to another turn of shooting+magic yourself. And what if they don't get cleaned up? Rinse and repeat the scenario.

2) You charge the dire wolves and beat them, causing overrun into the middle of nowhere and exposing your flank to counter charges. Now, this does depend on how far you overrun, with the further you go the more likely you are of being out of immediate trouble, so let's assume the latter for now. So, yes you've cleared up a small unit of dire wolves and haven't been hit in the flank in the mean time, but you're basically still in situation no.1, however now you will have to reform before you can face the enemy you really want/need to engage, so you're now facing 1 if not 2 turns more of shooting+magic, as well as your prized combat and point-winning unit not doing their job.

3) You charge and somehow don't beat them and are stuck there. This can often be the worst case scenario, because not only have you lost the opportunity to engage the unit you want to in the manner you want, but you are now at risk of the flank charge we are worried about in the first place. This is also the possible outcome of scenario 2) by the way, except that you will have a few extra VP points from the wolves. I can go into the problems with this outcome, but I think we all know what happens next...

Shooting: You face a gunline with many, well protected template war machines, we're talking mortars/catapults/WLCs. Single small template will cover a 3rd of your unit, large one will hit about half. They will have at least 1 turn of shooting, possibly 2 and if well protected even 3 or more. How do you cross the field before Execs become useless?

The only option in a case like this (which we will call empire as that would be skaven twice and that makes lil sense to address it thus). Harpies and lord fly out at best speed towards warmachines, not all will make it but enough will to either engage or silence the guns for a turn. Exes will take hits this is a given, so we must get ward and better armour save buffs up asap. Repeaters can maybe provide some respite, I have had a lucky cannon die due to mass fire. Some times 20 shots at long range is all you need.

I think that Dalamar could be charged with entrapment here, because this is basically the hard-counter (if there is one) to the exec horde imho. I think that if you came up against this list, you would really be trying to mitigate any losses you could and hoping for the best, but there is not much hope outside of sheer luck. But I guess I can't really comment on this one too much, simply because I don't have the experience playing against a gunline and having one big, squishy unit I need to try and protect, just because of my lists.



Anyway, for those still reading, all I'm trying to say is that what Dalamar pointed out are some of the issues with fielding these larger exec+hag BSB hordes, and the truth is that they often can be exploited by better, smarter players. Oh, and I'm not picking on you Geist, you were just the one to answer, but this is something that I think everyone would need to consider. Of course, that's just my opinion

[Dalamar]

I field them 6 wide and 5 deep. This way after proceeding with their slaughter they are likely to have more ranks rsmaining than all but the largest units (and you just dont charge those with a single exec block) and break steadfast on the charge. In my game execs were reliably causing around 10 wounds per combat phase.

[Killerk]

I used 27-30 exes in horde formation, with much effectiveness, but I uses 11 CoK and hydra banner bsb to draw attenuation away from them.

They can hold their own, and don't need much support, unlike our other units.

[Scyloc]

First of all, I mostly play under ETC-comp, and therefore you need to see my feedback in that light.
This means I do not have experience playing for instance 18 strong troll hordes led by Throgg, etc. Therefore I base my feedback on the tournament scene I am part of, which is almost solely comped by ETC or ETC-like comp.

Last year (ETC 2012) Phillip Bauer (Austria) played a very interesting list consisting of a CoB and 2 main combat units: CoKs and Executioners, and he did very well with that build.

Philip Bauer, Dark Elves
Supreme Sorceress: General, Lvl 4, Death, Lifetaker, Null Talisman (3x), Dispel Scroll, 360
Death Hag:BSB, Additional hand weapon, Cauldron of blood, 225
Sorceress, Lvl 1: Fire, Seal of Ghrond, 130
Master on Dark Pegasus: Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Biting Blade, Pendant of Kaeleth, Dragonhelm, 190
5 Harpies: 55
5 Harpies: 55
5 Dark Rider: Musician, 92
11 Crossbowmen: Musician, Champion, 120
12 Crossbowmen: Musician, Champion, 130
38 Warrior: FCG, Standard of Discipline, 258
10 Cold One Knights: FCG, Standard of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony, 370
30 Executioner: FCG, Banner of Murder, 415
Total: 2400

For me, that build opened up my eyes for, what i until that point had considered a subpar choice in the DE-army, and I have been doing much testing af various spin-off-builds and also other more extreme executioner builds for this years ETC. Builds like 2x37 Executioners, which after some playtesting was simply found to have too many inherent weaknesses to be playable in a competitive tournament. I have also done a lot of testing of dual rending star assassin builds with much greater success, but thats another story.

This year, I am surprised NOT to see any builds, like yours and Bauers, attending. Because I think it is a really solid build, with a lot of punch, and an answer for most armies out there. And very well in the "new" metagame with much more heavy armor. Furthermore its an army that can easily win 20-0 victories, which is very important in most tournaments (less so in ETC though).

Regarding Death Hag ASF BSB:
I whole-heartedly agree with you and any other who find, that having Frenzy on your main fighting block unacceptable, for much of the same reasons you have allready posted. Yes, frenzy can be mitigated, but when you play an evenly matched opponent, you just spend resources dealing with a weakness of you own choice, instead of exploiting his weaknesses. And when the game comes down to the 5th and 6th turn, and you are trying to clean up for the big win, it is heartbreaking having to have to overrun instead of reforming for that last turn assault that brings your win from 14-6 to 20-0.
To the people who prefer the death hag BSB. Yes she does indeed transform the unit from a strong unit to a absolut blender unit, however in my experience the cost (frenzy) is too great.

Regarding Executioners:
I have done a lot of testing the past year. At first executioners really opened up my eyes, and I started praising them highly. They do bring a lot of things to the DE army, that is sorely lacking: High S attacks. True, CO Knights bring S6 on the charge as well, but in can be very difficult to get the game-winning charge if you face a very skilled opponent, with more chaff than you have.
The executioners give a constant threat of S6, even when charged, and thats a big plus. Furthermore, the KB, adds some interesting threats, when your facing infantry or cavalry characters like in most VC armies or an empire knights-"star". And in my meta, these armies are very common. So, thats a big plus.

I mostly tested executioner units in size ranging from 30 to 37. The maximum you can bring in the ETC is 37 with a musician. I always supported them with a CoB, which obviously provided 5++ ward most turns.

An intact unit of 37 supported by 5++ ward is a power-factor, which allow you to dominate the board, by advancing aggressively. However, I found that if your opponent manages to dwindle their number to below 30 and if you approach 20 elfs left, they lose A LOT of offensive punch. This is due to the fact, that executioners strike last, so if they are met by strong opposition, too many will die before striking back, and they can lose big without doing much damage to your opponent. Which can be a real game decider.

This, I find is, their biggest liability. If their numbers get significantly reduced, they can be taken out WITHOUT causing much damage to (one of) the opposing main combat unit. In other words:

Most enemy main combat units can go through a dwindled unit of executioners relatively unscathed.

If your compare this to a 20 strong BG unit: You sacrifice the BGs to an opposing main combat unit, and the opposing unit pays a prize, and they become significantly weakened, and much easier to deal with afterwards for the rest of your army.
With executioners, you do not have that option. 9/10 they either murder their opposing force, while still paying a solid price in lost executioners, or they die without causing much damage, and therefore not giving your remaining army an easier time. And that is the main issue I found with the executioners.

It is important to say, that a 20 man strong executioner unit (or less), can still do well as a stubborn roadblock (near the CoB), setting up the finishing punch for other units, but they lose most of their offensive potential.

On sidecharges:
If you succeed in getting a side charge on your opponent, you are in a superior position, but generally i find, that if I am able to pull these kind of "tricks" on my opponent, I would be able to win with most DE armies due to skill difference.

Support of Executioners:
I partly agree with KillerK who mentions, that they dont need much buffs to be effective (beside a 5++ ward from the cauldron). However you really need to focus on keeping their numbers up, in order for them to be effective. And that can put a strain on your magic/support/redirecting resources, and they are therefore IMO not quite as low maintenence as they seem at first.
This all assumes that your oppoent is well aware of their greatly reduced effectiveness, when reduced in numbers, and that he tries to exploit that. In some games, you will succeed in presenting him with so many hard decisions/threats, that he will have to let some go through. And, an unhurt executioner unit is a force to be reckoned with.

Overall:
But my overall findings where, after much playtesting, that their inherent elf weakness of T3, 5+ as coupled with ASL, was too "costly" to overcome. A 5++ ward save helps a lot, but they still suffer from a very steep curve of combat effectiveness, where just a small handfull of executioner bodies (or a small debuff), can mean the difference between winning comfortably, and losing most of your unit without causing much damage to your opponent, total disaster.

As such they can be labbelled: Weaker White Lions (with KB).
They have a much greater need for "staying healthy", and lose most of their offence if they take casualties.

[Setomidor]

Very interesting post Scyloc, thanks!

One thing that I think need emphasising is that you can avoid a lot of the damage done by template warmachines by running the Execs in a very wide formation, and then reform them into a fighting formation just before the enemy engages. For example, deploy them 2 ranks deep and 17 wide. During your second turn or so, make a quick reform into a 10 wide unit and move 5" forward to force the enemy to engage during his turn. If you are really lucky, you'll break him when he charges which allows you to combat reform and punish him severely during your next turn.

[Cold73]

@Setomidor
Why would your opponent charge you if you place them in front of his own unit?
If I were that opponent i'd thank you for doing just that.... I'd move my unit in front of you 2" back..and unleash all my warmachines; regular shooting and magic on you.
You have just gave me one more turn to kill one of your most deadly units.

If i'd be feeling particularly nasty i'd even park a throw away unit of even low cost character at an angle so that you'd not even be able to charge the unit you were after.

[Setomidor]

Because you are probably going to outshoot and outmagic most armies you face, and they may be forced to engage in close combat to score any points of you. It is one of the decisions you have to take while deploying, but you should not decide on the formation to use when building the army list, but rather change that to suit the matchup.

[Gidean]

Before anyone says: "Use Death Hag BSB with Banner of Hag Graef" - I won't. Not because I want to deliberately handicap myself, but because I believe a death hag bsb is a weakness for the unit, T3 2W model with no protection whatsoever, in a world of large blocks she will likely be dead after first round of combat, second if she's lucky. Anything stronger than core troops and she will definitely be dead after first round.

Well I watched and played against a fellow who used the death hag bsb in his 30 man unit of Executioners take Best General at a 103 player tournament a couple of weeks ago. He won all 5 of his matches by combining those executioners with the buffs and debuffs from Shadow and Dark Magic. Killed all 5 of my Skullcrushers before I got to roll a single die. The unit standard was the banner of Murder. He would put the hag on the very end in a horde formation so often she was not in contact with enemy models. This player is the only one who beat my WoC. I went 4-1 in the tournament.

I, myself, am going to try to emulate his success.

[Dalamar]

That's great, but that totally beats the point.

It is obvious that an executioner horde is unstoppable if someone doesn't know how to deal with it. And very easy to deal with if someone is prepared for it (and if you're not prepared for it, then you're not prepared for any deathstar).

I can list you how any army can deal with 30 execs + death hag without sacrificing too much of their army, and certainly less than the cost of the unit.

[Demetrius]

Dalamar, I agree it is better to work without the Hag if you can. Frenzy is too big of a liability, especially on a horde worth over 700 points with the Hag. And, it is quite easy to lose the Hag if you are not careful, giving up 300 VPs and your crucial BSB rerolls. If you take her, you suddenly start caring about Death Snipes etc, which can be detrimintal to the army as a whole.

What formation are you running them in? I assume its not Horde formation at only 30 strong, perhaps 6 wide, 5 deep? I can see this working decently. Metal magic would surely work well with the unit, need some Glittering Robes action for a 3+ save, and Enchanted Blades makes them punch through 1+ a lot better. Obviously, the Cauldron is essential.

It is still close to 400 points with command though, which can get you 11 Cold Ones with FC, ASF banner and OTS. This unit also throws out S6, but strikes first, has 2+ armour, M7 and Swiftstride.

[Dalamar]

I went minimal magic for more troops, with only level 2 death wizard on a pegasus.

I run them 6x5 indeed, and so far they've done great. Last wednesday my Skaven took to the field instead so I had no chance to further test execs.

I can get 11 Cold Ones with FS, ASF and the OTS... which are 11 wounds compared to 30 and in today's world 2+ armor save means very little as any opponent worth their salt will have an anti-armor unit that will chop through my knights if I'm not careful.

That said my current list still has 10 knights with full command on top of the unit of 30 execs.