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ASF for Khainite units: how best to keep the BSB Hag alive? 
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
20 BGs are comparable to 30 Execs in a figth (and 60 pts cheaper), but as 20 is the maximum size of BGs they make a poor large unit.

Quote:
30 Execs (3x10) Vs 20 BG (2x10):


This is a misleading matchup:
30 Execs = 360 points
20 BG = 260 points

If you're going to do a point comparisson match up, then you need to go with equalish values. Otherwise I'll give you a matchup of 10,000 goblins against your 20 Blackguard and conclusively prove that goblins are better.

I see your point about being allowed a max of 20 BG, but if you're going to insist on using 30 Execs then you can boost the points cost of the BG to be even through other ways.

A more appropriate matchup would be:
20 BG (10/10) with FC, Crimson Death and Banner of Murder (345 points) versus 30 Execs (10/10/10) (360 points).

Now lets do the comparisson:


CC Round one:

BG R&F:
28 WS5 attacks (18 from front rank, 10 from back rank) = 21 hits (14 initially, then 7 more from warrior elite)
21 hits = 14 wounds (S4 vs T3 = 3s to wound)
14 wounds = 14 dead (S4 and AP = -2 modifier versus exec's 5+ armour save = no save).

BG Champion
3 WS5 attacks = 2.25 hits (1.5 initially, then 0.75 more from warrior elite)
2.25 hits = 1.875 wounds (S6 vs T3 = 2s to wound)
1.875 wounds = 1.875 dead (S6 and AP = -4 modifier versus exec's 5+ armour save = no save).

Total: 16 dead (rounding up from 15.875)

The 14 remaining R&F Execs strike back:
14 WS5 attacks = 10.5 hits (7 initially, further 3.5 from hatred).
10.5 hits = 8.75 wounds (S6 vs T3 = 2s to wound)
8.75 wounds = 8.75 dead (S6 = -3 modifier versus BG 5+ armour save = no save)

Total: 9 dead (rounding up from 8.75)

So, at the end of round one, you have 14 Execs left and 11 BG. Execs have the same number of ranks as the BG, so are not stubborn, but may still (barely) pass their break test.

Assuming they stick around, lets move on to:


CC Round two:

BG R&F
BG strike first with 19 WS5 attacks (18 from front rank and 1 from rear rank) = 14.25 hits (9.5 initially, followed by 4.25 from hatred.
14.25 hits = 9.5 wounds (S4 vs T3 = wounding on 2s)
9.5 wounds = 9.5 dead (S4 and AP = -2 modifier versus exec's 5+ armour save = no save)

BG Champ
3 WS5 attacks = 2.25 hits (1.5 initially, then 0.75 more from warrior elite)
2.25 hits = 1.875 wounds (S6 vs T3 = 2s to wound)
1.875 wounds = 1.875 dead (S6 and AP = -4 modifier versus exec's 5+ armour save = no save).

Total: 11 dead (rounding down from 11.375)

The three remaining execs hit back
3 attacks = 1.5 hits (4s to hit, and now no hatred as second round of CC)
1.5 hits = 1.25 wounds (S6 vs T3 = 2s to wound)
1.25 wounds = 1.25 dead (S6 = -3 modifier versus BG's 5+ armour save = no save)

Total: 1 dead (rounding down from 1.25)

At the end of round 2, the Execs have three remaining versus the BG's ten. There's no way that they will pass their break test as they're no longer stubborn and lost combat by a mile. Of course its possible that they roll snake eyes and stay, but then you've got 10 BG with death wielding champ versus 3 ASL Execs. It's a no brainer what happens even if they do not run...

Convincing win: BG



But, with match ups of this kind, you miss out on a lot of the more important aspects of unit value, including their non-combat advantages (e.g. the BG are ITP and auto stubborn, can take magic items and can take bigger magic banners), their potential synergies with other units (e.g. BG can include non-khainite characters - including mages - whereas execs cannot), match up against other creatures (Execs are way better against high toughness, high armour creatures, whereas BG are awesome at low-mid level toughness and armour killers) and other factors.

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Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:34 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:18 pm
Posts: 240
Location: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
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We can add many factor, here's some:

1- They got the same armor, the same T, so if you loose 10 in each unit because of shooting/magic in the first 2 turns, what will be the outcome of 20 exectionner against 10 BG??

18S4 attacks kill 9 executionner
3S6 kill 2, so total of 11
9 exectionners kill 6, lost by 5 but are steadfast (11 against 4)

Let say the champion is dead
8S4 kill 4
5S6 kill 2, loose by 2, steadfast

Then it's 2 against 5, 2 dead against 1, final round 1 BG against 3exectionner, near a draw for me!


2- Do you really field BG in 10*2?? I field them in 7-7-6. But 30 exectionner will fight in 10*3. What's the outcome of those 2 formations??

19S4 kill 10, champ kill 2
18S6 kill 11, draw (2 ranks for executionner)

18S4 kill 9
9S6 kill 4, will probably break there, if not

10S4 kill 5
4S6 kill 2, final outcome is 4 exec against 3 BG, a draw


3- If your opponent is brilliant, as you are, he will provide something else to fight your black guard unit before attacking with exectionner, like my first idea, exectuionner can win or draw if they face tone down BG (because loosing 10 guys of executionner is not as bad as loosing 10BG)

4- I'll never let a champion with Str6 stay alive more than one turn...

5- I always field CoB to give 5+ ward to my executionner, what's the outcome of BG with 5+ ward against exctionner with 5+ ward?

Let say 20BG in 10*2 and 30 executionner in 30*3
28S4 wounds 14, champ kill 2, so 16 become 11
19S6 wounds 12, with ward become 8
12BG against 19exec, loose by 2 (1 more rank), are steadfast

22S4 wounds 11, kill 7
12S6 wounds 5, kill 3
9BG against 12exec, loose by 4 stubborn (by cauldron)

18S4 wounds 9, kill 6
6S6 wound 3, kill 2
Final outcome: 7BG against 6exec, near a draw to me, a little for BG


Conclusion: both seem as good as the other, the difference come with the max 20 BG. In a full battle (with other unit, magic, shooting), it start to make a difference to be 33% less in number.


Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:23 pm
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Generalissimo
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I think you missed the real point of my post, so I've quoted it below.

Quote:
But, with match ups of this kind, you miss out on a lot of the more important aspects of unit value, including their non-combat advantages (e.g. the BG are ITP and auto stubborn, can take magic items and can take bigger magic banners), their potential synergies with other units (e.g. BG can include non-khainite characters - including mages - whereas execs cannot), match up against other creatures (Execs are way better against high toughness, high armour creatures, whereas BG are awesome at low-mid level toughness and armour killers) and other factors


I should add in there: higher initiative and higher leadership for BG too.

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Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:47 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I have to emphasize and agree with Red...'s point about "non combat advantages". I particularly favor take-all-comer lists, and the immense versatility and flexibility of Black Guard makes them really appealing. Their specific brand of killing power may lack the specialized nature of Witch Elves and Execs, but they form an incredibly solid hybrid of both, and their other benefits (Stubborn, Immune to Psych, re-rolls in every round of combat, Initiative 6, Weapon Skill 5 for better offensive/defensive value when rolling To Hit, 5+ armor save for decent protection when stacked with Lore of Metal or Cauldron Buffs, better magic item/banner allowance) really makes them a versatile choice.

Their low unit count is a disadvantage, but given that they have so many other clear advantages over both Witch Elves and Black Guard, I say that this really helps to balance them as a unit choice. In 8th edition, taking more than 20 Black Guard wasn't a huge issue because you rarely needed more than 2 ranks. Now, in 8th edition, only being able to take 20 models per unit really helps to limit their power since I would certainly take them units units of 28-30 models if I could, and not have much fear of throwing them against any opponent.

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Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:28 pm
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Executioner
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There is a slightly beardy way of making sure you Hag stays in the second rank. Deploy the unit 3 wide, forcing the Hag into the second rank, then reform to 5 wide. RAW state that a character must only be placed in the front rank when they join a unit, so if you are reforming with a character in the second rank you can leave them there.

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Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:55 pm
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
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Location: Hag Graef
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Grimma wrote:
RAW state that a character must only be placed in the front rank when they join a unit, so if you are reforming with a character in the second rank you can leave them there.
- The command group's position is in p.92. Command group must be in the front unless there is no room for them, and they move automatically if there is a reform.
- There is another exception, p.100, if a character wants to get into combat, he can replace one of the command group.
- For characters themselves, p.97 indicates, indeed, where the character must be placed when he joins a unit.
- The only indication I can find otherwise is when a character has fought on a side or the rear, as described p.100, and the melee ceases. Then the character automatically returns to the front rank of his unit.

Several ways of discussing it:
- RAW vs RAI: RAW is silent about what characters do when the unit reforms, while it is perfectly clear for command group and about characters moved for the duration of a melee. It seems that there is a loophole.
- English: "When characters join a unit...". Does "join" cover only the short moment when it happens? Or does it cover the whole duration afterwards until the characters leave the unit or die? As the book mentions sometimes that characters "have joined" or "are" in a unit, it seems that "join" could be considered as the short moment when it happens.
- Fair play. As you say, this is beardy.
I have nothing against narrow units, 1-3 wide, forcing the character to be in the second rank; at the same time, the unit forfeits any rank bonus and any steadfast possibility, so that seems fair and balanced.
In what you suggest, the advantage you seek without paying any drawback seems quite unfair.
Read p.3, "the Spirit of the Game", far right column.
Your opponent is very likely to contest bitterly. If the only way to force him to accept your point of view is to stretch the rules that far, probably you've lost the spirit of the game.


Short version:
Extreme RAW indeed.
But I don't expect anyone to go that far, and keep the game enjoyable enough to keep finding opponents. I would not be surprised to see a tournament umpire rule against that.

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Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:12 am
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Executioner
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I didn't say it was a nice thing to do, just legal under the rules. :D

I have not and would not use that tactic for the reasons Calisson states. I would note as a caveat though, that double ABOMBs and Power Scrolls seem to crop up quite often in the UK podcasts that I listen to, so maybe they play tournies a little harder over there. If my opponent put something like that on the table then the gloves would come off.

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Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:03 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:26 pm
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Location: New England
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So back to the original question of how to keep the hag bsb alive.

Short answer is I don't.

I used to use her... then I realized I can just drop her and take 13 extra executioners for her point cost. That's 2 more ranks.

I think thats a much better option than taking points in a hero that is almost always going to die and give the enemy points.

13 extra executioners means hopefully the unit is less likely to die and give away points.


Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:05 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
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Location: GA
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I've never had much success with Exec, I have better success with giving 20 BG the ASF and then blessing them with KB or extra attack from the cauldron. As far as keeping the witch alive just give her the dance of doom and place here on the end of the first row, support here with a couple of sorceress to cast chillwind to protect her from shots. Thats about the best I can say. Shes a goner either way you look at it if the opponent can roll one wound.


Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:41 am
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