Black Guard vs Witch Elves

[A18no]

Black guard have become a middle range unit. They are between witches and executionner. As fast as witch, higher strenght value (but with equal wounds on average), more defense, but no as strong as Str6/killing blow.

I've started to field executionner with a cauldron of blood. Giving the ward each turn.

They cost 1 pts less than black guard, killing blow with Str6, have the same armor, are stubborn too. Yes striking last is a big drawback, but with the ward, they become hard to kill.

1- 318pts 24 executionners, in 8*3. bring 17 attacks, Str 6 (-3 save)
2- 320pts 20 Black guards, full cmdt, murder, in 7-7-6, bring 22 attacks, Str 4 armor piercing.

1- 13 wounds on WS4, T3-4, -3 amor
2- 13 wounds on WS4, T3, -2 armor and 10 wounds on WS4 T4 -2 armor.

Executionner got 20% more wounds, kill more at high T, bring killing blow.

Black guard have lost their no brainer slot on my list. And I think that they lack the low cost of the witch (for about the same killing power) and are not as strong as executionner. If you consider the army, with a CoB, executionner/witches are better served than black guard.

My conclusion: If it was possible to field more than 20 black guards, they would have stay in my list. But since hitting unit need, for me, to be 24 strong or more, they stay on the shelves... even if that mean that I need to paint more figs (my black guard were all painetd)

[Pjeos]

Hi there,

a18no, you're not taking into account the fact that Black Guard rerolls to hit EVERY turn, which makes them great receivers of KB to take down characters. Also, they can receive a Mindrazor for the greater effect as they will reroll in their first round and in the oponent's combat round too, butchery.


See ya

[Rabidnid]

Witches are great in units of 10 to 14 in a single line to completely dismember blocks of cheap horde.

My favorite use is a unit of 14 in 2 ranks next to a block of 30 spears 5 wide. You get an appalling number of attacks from the girls, and the enemy loses stubborn due to the deep spears, unless they enemy is over 6 ranks deep, they are losing attacks due to the number of casualties they take.

Same thing works with BG, but they lack the sheer killing power of the girls on the charge. Add a flaming banner and a hag with manbane for a more exotic unit that can pull down all manner of regenerating monsters.

[Tethlis]

Another point that's really worth mentioning is that WS4 versus WS5. WS4 without re-roll, versus WS5 WITH reroll, is a big difference in combat consistency from one round to the next. Also, there's enough WS5 stuff out there that Black Guard gain a nice little bit of defense by only being hit on a 4+, compared to a 3+. Every little bit helps...

[A18no]

Another point that's really worth mentioning is that WS4 versus WS5. WS4 without re-roll, versus WS5 WITH reroll, is a big difference in combat consistency from one round to the next. Also, there's enough WS5 stuff out there that Black Guard gain a nice little bit of defense by only being hit on a 4+, compared to a 3+. Every little bit helps...

That is a good point, very good indeed.

Hi there,
a18no, you're not taking into account the fact that Black Guard rerolls to hit EVERY turn, which makes them great receivers of KB to take down characters. Also, they can receive a Mindrazor for the greater effect as they will reroll in their first round and in the oponent's combat round too, butchery.
See ya

Having killing blow on 22 attacks is good, but will only get you 3 total. If you are lucky and get the killing blow where you want, fine. But it won't happen that often. I really think that killing blow is more a bonus than a strategy to rely on.

If you include Mindrazor in the comparison, I must say that witches are better, they get 1 more attack in the front rank. They can be 30 (not BG), with 30 in hordes, you get 51 attacks... WAY more than what BG can do. And 30 witches cost the same as 20 BG. If you can't break a unit on the charges with 51 Str8 attacks... you deserve to loose the re-roll each turn.

[Meteor]

Though I'm happy with witches being WS4 because it means you can reroll more misses to try for the poisons again. But it is a good point that they're more susceptible to 3+ to hit attacks, and being T3 with NO armour isn't a good thing for them.

I don't really think there is a fine line between which is better, they're both situational in their use, both just as good for what havoc they can potentially reap. Though as a general unit, BG will be better. Not outstanding against anything in particular, not lacking against anything in particular.

[Pjeos]

If you include Mindrazor in the comparison, I must say that witches are better, they get 1 more attack in the front rank. They can be 30 (not BG), with 30 in hordes, you get 51 attacks... WAY more than what BG can do. And 30 witches cost the same as 20 BG. If you can't break a unit on the charges with 51 Str8 attacks... you deserve to loose the re-roll each turn.

I'm yet to find a horde in the tabletops, most usually units are 5-7 model wide here and my WEs/BG always go in 7 models wide units, otherwise they are hard to maneuver.

7 WEs throw 29 attacks at WS4 foe (assuming CoB support). They get 7 poisons, 16 hits and 6 misses. Next round, they get 5 poisons, 10 hits and 14 misses for a total of 9 poisons and 26 hits resulting in 29 wounds.

7 BG under the same conditions throw 22 attacks at the foe. They get 19-20 hits every round. In 2 rounds of combat they sit at 39 hits resulting in 32'5 wounds.

That's with Mindrazor for both units. Mindrazor is a great leveller, even Warriors with Mindrazor can dish out a lot of wounds. When it comes to plain combat, Elite Warriors rule makes a world of a difference, just test it. Furthermore, BG won't loose attacks if is defeated in combat, which makes them even more durable in long combats. As I see it, WEs aren't far superior in combat terms against medium-low T opponents. I'm taking them because they are the way to go against high T opponents and not having them in my current list would be a great flaw.


See ya

[Rabidnid]

I'm taking them because they are the way to go against high T opponents and not having them in my current list would be a great flaw.

See ya

I'm taking them because they are cute, becuase on one expects much from them, because the hag can surprise with RoK or MB, and because they can benefir greatly from cheap banners like flaming or armour piercing.

[Phierlihy]

Yesterday I faced a Dark Elf player's block of 7x3 Witch Elves (with the armour piercing banner) and met them with my block of 5x3 Tzeentch Chaos Warriors (hand weapon & shield). I thought I would fare alright until the Witch Elves killed 13 of the 15 Chaos Warriors in one turn! Tzeentch Chaos Warriors are tough as nails...I have to give my Witch Elves another look.

[Pjeos]

Hi there,

If those Witches killed 13 Tzeench Warriors of Chaos that guy was extremely lucky, MHO.

[Burizan]

Hi there,

If those Witches killed 13 Tzeench Warriors of Chaos that guy was extremely lucky, MHO.

The average is ~4 but you will commonly find much higher (and lower) numbers of 6s, which make a considerable difference. I would agree that isn't reliable though, they would generally be better in the flank against anything with a save.

[A18no]

If you include Mindrazor in the comparison, I must say that witches are better, they get 1 more attack in the front rank. They can be 30 (not BG), with 30 in hordes, you get 51 attacks... WAY more than what BG can do. And 30 witches cost the same as 20 BG. If you can't break a unit on the charges with 51 Str8 attacks... you deserve to loose the re-roll each turn.

I'm yet to find a horde in the tabletops, most usually units are 5-7 model wide here and my WEs/BG always go in 7 models wide units, otherwise they are hard to maneuver.

7 WEs throw 29 attacks at WS4 foe (assuming CoB support). They get 7 poisons, 16 hits and 6 misses. Next round, they get 5 poisons, 10 hits and 14 misses for a total of 9 poisons and 26 hits resulting in 29 wounds.

7 BG under the same conditions throw 22 attacks at the foe. They get 19-20 hits every round. In 2 rounds of combat they sit at 39 hits resulting in 32'5 wounds.

That's with Mindrazor for both units. Mindrazor is a great leveller, even Warriors with Mindrazor can dish out a lot of wounds. When it comes to plain combat, Elite Warriors rule makes a world of a difference, just test it. Furthermore, BG won't loose attacks if is defeated in combat, which makes them even more durable in long combats. As I see it, WEs aren't far superior in combat terms against medium-low T opponents. I'm taking them because they are the way to go against high T opponents and not having them in my current list would be a great flaw.


See ya

Maybe you're right, maybe BG can dish out better dmg. But a thing very important you're forgeting:

At the same cost, witches can get one more rank than BG. And dish about the same dmg the first turn. But having one more rank make you better at breaking steadfast unit.

So the effectivness of a unit not topped at 20 guys is WAY better when you add one more rank, it actually give them 5 "free" wounds (providing you're facing a 5 wide unit). Because if you can break the unit, you're making double wounds. So black guard are actually 5 wounds behind any other unit we can make. And for me, it's the reason they are so bad now.

I'm not sure that I'm enough clear. Let take 20 BG, 260pts, it's 26 witches. In 7*x, we get 3 ranks deep of black guard, and 4 ranks deep of witches. Assuming both got good backed up, ward from CoB, etc.

To break any unit, BG need to put a 5 wides one bellow 19 guys (5-5-5-4), and witches need only to get them below 24 (5-5-5-5-4). So against a unit of 40 guys (common unit here), BG need to do 21 wounds, Witches only need 16. Who is the more effective? In 8th edition, effectivness is not equal do damage capability. And many players (not here, i'm talking in general), are not used to play or evaluate combat like that.

Hope that I helped!

Good games

[Tethlis]

To break any unit, BG need to put a 5 wides one bellow 19 guys (5-5-5-4), and witches need only to get them below 24 (5-5-5-5-4). So against a unit of 40 guys (common unit here), BG need to do 21 wounds, Witches only need 16. Who is the more effective? In 8th edition, effectivness is not equal do damage capability. And many players (not here, i'm talking in general), are not used to play

This is a good point. Of course, it only applies to units that are counting on Steadfast in order to survive, and assumes you're counting on breaking them in one round of combat. For me, I frequently run into elite infantry units that are not interested in preserving Steadfast, and I usually plan my combats to last multiple rounds anyway.

In contrast, if you have a bad round of rolls, the Black Guard will perform exactly the same in the second round of combat and are also Stubborn and will reliably stay to fight. The Witch Elves lose a lot of that killing power, and if they lose Steadfast or aren't near the BSB/General, they might be in trouble.

[Pjeos]

Hi there,

That's a truly important factor you pointed a18no, I had a game the other day where I realized that adding ranks to a Hydra makes almost any unit in the game flee (save stubborn units or Deathstars). I then thought that, as WE can rank deeper than BG for approximately the same points cost, they may force more break tests despite being less killy. And you see, you just proved that.

Problem Is that, as I said before, MSU is still very extended over here and I don't face any horde formations at all so I do not need that big units of WE. I guess thet gamestyle will be evolving into MSE gradually so that I may have to take bigger infantry units and having extra ranks may become more important.

For the time being, I'm running 14 WEs with Manbane and flamming attacks as they fill other rolls in my list that BG could not cope with (mainly taking on high T and/or Regen units/monsters).

See ya

[A18no]

I could be wrong, but I'm sure that in a couple of month, players will change their way to play to go for less big unit, instead of MSU or MSE.

Big unit can destroy MSU if well played, and got a good chance against other big units, MSU are always on the hard side to face MSU and big unit.

We are playing 8th rule since 2 months before the release (and found that near all the rumors were close to the BRB). And I gave you the tactic we are using now.

I've played 2 games with my dark elf magic optimized (go read my topic for idea). And I've crushed a dwarf in Big units and High elf in MSU. Losing less than 500 pts (5 harpies and 5 riders) in each games of 2400pts.

Because big unit got one more advantage: remember that half unit give 0 VP. So if you get 2 unit of 15, and you lose one. You gave half VP. Play it in one big unit, even if it's harder and you loose 20 guys instead of 15, you're giving 0 VP, so are in for the win. 100pts difference is very small, so any MSU unit you gave to your opponent is potentially the victory.

To add to the comparison, let use Cold one knight.

They have Str4 when charged (like BG), cause fear (so immune to fear), can get a great banner (ASF to be as strong as BG, with re-roll each turn)
20 BG = 260pts, approximatly 10 cold one knight.

- BG in 7-7-6, against Cold one (as wide as BG), in 6-4. BG wil loose both rank after 9 wounds, cold one don't have any.
- BG generate 22 attacks, Str 4, Cold one dish 17 attacks Str 4, and 11 are Str 6 on charge
- Cold one are Ld 9, as BG, but BG are stubborn, but does not cause fear

Let say they face a WS4, S3, T3, 5+ saves. With 54 attacks (just for calculation purpose)

- BG: 54A, hit on 4+, wounds on 4+, armor 5+, 9 dead. BG will kill 11
- Cold one: 54A, 4+/4+, 2+ save, 2 dead, cold one will kill 8 (10 if they charged)

BG win by 2, cold one win by 6 (by 8 if they charge), they both got only 1 ranks though. And Cold one didn't kill a lot to remove steadfast (but as much if they charge). But 11 dead from BG is not a lot too.

In the next turn, BG are 11, and Cold one are 8. Cold one knight will do 6 dead, BG will do 10 dead. BG will lose 9 again, Cold one only 2. Cold one win by 4, BG win by 1.

Third turn, You got 2 BG left, and 6 cold one.

In my games, I play 28 executionner flamer and 10 cold one ASF.

Good games

[Nemesis1020]

Black Guard can reform at the end of the pursuit where Witch Elves cannot due to frenzy?? I think I read something like that, but cant exactly remember.