Against Empire with Dwellers Below, Steam Tank and 3 Mortars

[Eglard]

It shouldn't take 3 turns of getting into combat with the warmachines. Yes the spearmen will be slower, but then again those are not the units you should kill the warmachines with.

If you want to field a list that is designed to deal with a gunline, then you should take as much as possible small units that can move very fast. Mortarts will kill only a few models if your units are small. Take 8 units of 5 dark riders, 2 hydras and knights. Even chariots could be useful. Harpies are excellent, and shades with rending star assassin can easily take down a warmachine on turn 1. Lore of shadow is great against warmachines as Tethlis sad, you should use it.

BTW do you know that the engineer can only use the pidgeon bombs if he didn't use his master of ballistics skill on the same turn (re-roll an artillerity or scatter dice, or lend his BS to a warmachine)? And that greap shots must use BS to hit?

[Drei]

Yes i know that, thx. Harpies are not so good because the panic to easily, i will try more Shades/DR next game.

[Red...]

OK i just played against him and i lost.

And here is my list: ...

So despite all the advice to date on this topic, you played again with big horde blocks of warriors and a supreme sorceress with lore of metal.

There's no real hope for you getting to a point where you can reliably do well against empire as long as you continue to use this basic formula. Tweaking the list to add a few harpies etc just isn't enough.

My advice is either:

A) Start to test with entirely new strategies (e.g. using lots of fast light troops, with combat heavy characters and low magic, and few or no warriors).

OR

B) pick up a different army. Some armies can fare very well as horde forces: Orcs and Goblins in particular could be a good fit for you: they are cheap, tough and powerful (an orc is less than 6 points base, has T4 and S4 on the attack, compared to DE warriors who cost 1 point more base, have T3 and S3).

Otherwise you're doomed to suffer the same experience over and over: he'll mostly hammer your big blocks of warriors with artillery and win by massive margins, except when - every now and then - you'll get off the game changing spells that you need to win and so just scrape a minor victory.

I'm mostly done contributing at this point - so whatever path you choose to follow, good luck to you.



P.S. Warhammer - when done right - is deeply more strategic than 'who can click the fastest' RTS games imo. But, as with any good strategy game, the strategic dimension takes a while to fully develop. Keep at it though, its rewarding in the end

[Drei]

Its not so easy to understand why somethings works and why not.
Unlike in Starcraft i cant watch replays here..

I tried to follow some of your advice by using many small and fast units, the harpiens. I the next step i will try DR and post the result here, in 2 days we play again.

BTW what is the right Strat to attack a technikus, a cannon and a mortar with shades ?

[Thanee]

Do not post the individual point cost of different items. It's against the rules of the forum, because GW doesn't like it.

Ah , didn know that. what a sucky enterprise GW is, i payed for the Rulebook and Armybook but im not allowed to post pointcost ? haha

Now you know, so please go ahead and change your post!

Yes, you are not allowed to post all the individual point costs here. It might be that we are overly cautious, but that's the rules, and they have to be followed.

It would also be great, if you left those pointless insults (be it towards GW or anyone else) out of your posts.

Thanks!

Bye
Thanee

[Meteor]

Uhhh the fact that he had only Lv2's, it shouldn't be any problem getting magic off or draining his DD and whatever bonus DD he has stocked up.

Did you try and deploy your spears in a 20x2 formation with your spears like I suggested to avoid some damage from mortars?

You had FIVE sets of Harpies and TWO sets of Shades. I really really don't understand how you managed to lose all but one unit of Harpies. Were you placing them directly in front of cannons and gunners or something? You said magic missiles killed you, why weren't you stopping those with your Lv4? There shouldn't had been that much trouble dispelling against Lv2 wizards when you're a Lv4.

You also have WAAAAAAAY too many spearmen. If you're taking THAT many spearmen and no elite infantry for big punch, then you REALLY REALLY need to take Lore of Shadow so you can actually punch on in combat. I don't care if you got a deadly Master or Dreadlord in your spears, heroes don't win you the game like in Warcraft 3.

[Dalamar]

1. Starcraft has no "pro scene" Starcraft is a game of "if you win first skirmish you win the battle".

HAHA NOOB

You know, I could say exactly the same about you because you have trouble winning against one of the easiest opponents we get.

But I won't. I'll just stop trying to help you out.

[Drei]

Yeah its true im a noob, thats why i ask here. But its also true that starcraft and now starcraft2 has a pro scene. I spend years with games like starcraft and warcraft3 , and saying that somethings doesnt exist when you know nothing about it just makes me laugh.

That might be ok if u just say it without anyone telling you that it exist just in the post before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_War_professional_competition

Its like saying: Warhammer is a game were you throw a dice and if you get a 1 u loose :-)

Plz help me and dont be offended just because you didn know a pro scene exists, i dont know many more important things too.

For example i just dont understand how i can use many small units without blocking each other on a table with that many terrain (~7)

You can show me with this programm :
http://www.battlechronicler.com/


@Meteor
He was out of range in my first round. In my second turn he used a scroll and in my third he used another scroll. I lost 2 lvls on my SS because of an IF in the second round.

I didnt try another formation because i thought that the Harpiens could kill the warmachines fast enough. My basic idea is to win the battle and break him because i have more ranks. It worked in 4 games so far but it seems that was just luck.

"You had FIVE sets of Harpies and TWO sets of Shades. I really really don't understand how you managed to lose all but one unit of Harpies."

I dont understand that either...
He has 2 Lightmages and the waraltar, that gives him 4 magic missles, for some reason he only used the 2 mages. Unfortunately i lost 2 Lvls on my SS and i dont get extra DD. The prob was that i just had enough dice to stop 2 Spell, not all 3 and that i didnt get a higher bonus then him. Plus some harpiens panic and run with Leadership6. One of my Shade units was stupid because of the fungus forest.

"You also have WAAAAAAAY too many spearmen. If you're taking THAT many spearmen and no elite infantry for big punch, then you REALLY REALLY need to take Lore of Shadow so you can actually punch on in combat. I don't care if you got a deadly Master or Dreadlord in your spears, heroes don't win you the game like in Warcraft 3."

I need to spend 1/4 of my points in core anyway and though SM is the best choice. And i pick that many because he kills so many :-). I didnt use the COB because i thought the Harpiens would protect me but they didnt ...

If u use a DL with the Herokillerblade plus a COB Buff and the Potion +1A i normally have 8 Attacks, Str 6. He kills about 6 modells each round. If won my games this way so far, but know he stays away from combat as long as possible... . The MA with DragonEgg and GW kills about 3 modells each round, the Egg alone killed 18 modells in one game.

OK i admit that its complicated to understand what happend without pictures, i thought what i write would be enough, but i will post alot of pictures in 2 days.

thx drei

[Meteor]

Well...don't go around laughing at someone and calling them noob, it's just not nice, and not an appropriate way to respond to something that you don't agree with

Here's a list for you to have a ponder over and perhaps try,

Dreadlord with Executioner's Axe
Lv4 with Sac Dagger and Ironcurse Icon (Dark Magic)
Lv2 with Tome and Seal of Ghrond (Shadow Magic)
CoB with BSB

40 Warriors with Shields and Full Command
20 Warriors with Shields and Full Command
20 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Standard and Musician
15 Corsairs with AHW and SSS
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
6 Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbow

15 Black Guard with AP Banner
5 Shades with AHW
12 Witch Elf
10 Cold One Knights

2501 - just a quick whack together list based around my 2000pt list atm.



How to use:

Lv4 with Dark Magic - you aim to get Bladewind, Chillwind and Word of Pain. The 4th spell can be whatever you fancy.
Chillwind is a basic spell so you can always swap one out for it. You cast Bladewind on one warmachine crew (24" range). They're CC attacks so you go by the crew's T, not the warmachine, remember to make him take his panic checks when the mortar gets wiped out, you might make another nearby warmachine cower and unable to fire for a turn. Chillwind can be used on another warmachine or a unit of crossbowmen/riflemen. A single wound will stop that unit from shooting. Word of Pain will drop another crossbow/riflemen's BS to 1, effectively disabling them from shooting.

Lv2 with Shadow Magic - you aim to get The Withering and Mystifying Miasma, third spell can be your choosing, you can try to get Pit of Shades for an easy kill on his tank.

Withering (-D3 T) is used against the target you want to shoot at with your crossbows, or cast damaging magic upon (can you imagine our Crossbows wounding on 3+ or even 2+ when there's 40 shots flying at them?). Miasma can further drop another Crossbow/Rifleman unit's BS by D3 to disable them from shooting. Note he might not have this many shooting blocks, but so long as you have many spells that disables shooting, you have a greater chance to disable his shooting if he blocks a few other of such spells. In combat you'd use Miasma to drop WS so your troops can hit on 3's whilst hoping you drop his WS low enough for him to hit you on 5's. Thereby mitigating HEAPS of possible damage.

Seal of Ghrond also gives you an extra DD. It's the most useful way for a consistent magic defense. Imagine the worst case scenario, double 6 on winds. PD:DD ratio is 12:6, the seal bumps you to 12:7. If you're lucky to pull off ONE generation out of two rolls, then it's now 12:8. Not so bad anymore eh? Especially if he only has +2 to cast to your +4 to dispel

Lv4 goes with 40 SM so they benefit from 6+ ward against his mortars, whilst you can stab cheap SM for PD as you cast. (I personally like stabbing Black Guards instead, better quality PD I suppose? ) You'd give a 5+ ward blessing to your precious BG and just soldier on towards his line. The Corsairs aren't fussed by the mortars, since SDC will help them out a bit. The only units left vulnerable is your Witches and your block of 20 SM, which is meh, you can't protect everything.

40 SM are there to deny enemy steadfast, so you'll be deployed and marching down at a 5x8 formation. Or you could opt for the 20x2 formation at the start of the game and swift reform as you advance.

10 Cold One Knights: apparently they win all games and fights upon contact with the enemy (whilst relatively intact beforehand). So they're your no brainer unit, march forward and slam head-on into your enemy.

Dark Riders, Shades and the Harpies should all advance along one flank together. Please make use of forests and other forms of cover so it's harder to shoot these units down. They've got the mobility to be able to run around enemy guns, and in a far enough position to avoid a charge or a grape shot whilst comfortably able to make the charge. Keep your general or BSB as close to them at the start as possible so they don't panic and run away before their job's done.

The Dreadlord with the Executioner's Axe is your sure fine way to kill the Steam Tank in one go, or two at most. Put him with a unit of 20 SM or something cheap so the Tank doesn't splatter your precious general before he gets to swing. 4 S8 D3 wounds attacks will mince it asap.

The Repeaters are there to pepper his line as you go, then you swift reform into 5x4 formation before engaging or receiving a combat charge. They new act as a second unit of 20 SM and are better at surviving because of that 6+ parry save.

Try something like this rather than so many characters and massive blocks.

[Calisson]

Mod's note @ dreikaesehoch

Even as a newcomer, you're supposed to know a few things.
You were nicely told by Thanee not to use offending words.
Dalamar refrained rightly to overreact to you calling him a noob.
Don't do it again, not only it lowers the pleasure of most D.netters, but also it is against the rules of the forum.

Another thing is the use of academic English.
Even if English is not your first language, you're supposed to know how to spell "I" rather than "i", "you" rather than "u", "didn't" rather than "didnt", often "it's" rather than "its"... you see what I mean. I'm not an English teacher and I wish I had not to become one.
All the D.netters took the care not only to provide you valuable advice, but also to type it in proper English.

Please behave as everyone is supposed to do here in D.net.

[Drei]

They're CC attacks so you go by the crew's T, not the warmachine.

Is this really the case ? I know the spell description but is there a FAQ/ERRATA ? Is it played this way in tournaments ? If i remember correct there was a Errata in 7 Edition about this which doesnt allow it. I just dont have any opinion in this case and in doubt i use the weaker version of spells/items. Too often i have the feeling that GW uses words that are not necessary to give a spell/item more fluff.

Chillwind can be used on another warmachine ...

The chance is really small

and just soldier on towards his line. The Corsairs aren't fussed by the mortars, since SDC will help them out a bit.

I did the math and SM offer more wounds for the same number of points. I dont know what Corsairs are good for. Yes the SSS is good, but doesnt help me that much.

thx for everthing, i will try some of the ideas in 2 days and post a detailed battlereport

[Dalamar]

Bladewind is still and always was *Close Combat* attacks.
The only weird thing about it is that any attacks not allocated to characters, are randomised as per shooting rules.

Which in this edition, against War Machines, makes absolutely no difference. Everything hits the entire model, and from Close Combat attacks you use crew's T.

Chillwind on War Machine is useless. Crew are tokens, you need to destroy (casualty) the entire war machine to stop it from shooting... wait, destroing it stops it from shooting anyway.

Spearmen offer more wounds, but do they offer twice as many wounds? That's exactly how many more Spearmen a Mortar will kill over Corsairs, twice as many.

[Thanee]

Bladewind is still and always was *Close Combat* attacks.
The only weird thing about it is that any attacks not allocated to characters, are randomised as per shooting rules.

Not anymore...

Q. How are the attacks generated by Hydra's Teeth and Bladewind allocated? (p100)
A. Roll for the number of attacks and then allocate the ones you are allowed against characters or champions. Any remaining attacks are allocated by the attacker against models in the unit that are not characters or champions.

BTW, it seems like the spell will only make a single hit on a lone character (remaining hits are discarded then?).

Bye
Thanee

[Dalamar]

Hahaha, didn't notice that in the FAQ, this makes the spell even more powerful *debates changing his Level 4 into a Dark Magic wizard*

And yes, looks like it's crap against single characters, or characters mounted on anything that's not a monster (can still allocate the rest against the Dragon/Manticore/Griffon)... but we have Doombolt for that.

[Meteor]

So casualty means you actually have to LOSE a model before that unit can't shoot? I always understood it as if the target suffered a wound.

Oh well bladewind is the get go anyway. It is indeed useless against lone characters or any sort too >:(

[Thanee]

Casualty is probably a removed model, yeah.

It's not exactly clear, of course, and has been debated on the past, but that is what the term means usually (it can mean both, wounds or death, but I think it is used more in the latter context), so it is likely what is meant here.

Bye
Thanee

[Dalamar]

In case of wounds, it always means "out of action" wounds. Like a shot in the leg that makes you unable to continue fighting.

Other definition is actual death.

A casualty in game refers to both (model that lost all wounds isn't neccessarily dead, it's just unable to continue fighting)

[Meteor]

Well regardless, it's Bladewind that's attractive here for picking off war machines, chillwind can be used on crossbows/rifles instead then.