D.R.A.I.C.H. - Building the Uber list, Step 1: Magic

[Greg]

Hi,
I think if the priority is to build tournie viable lists you need to look at what are the "Top Tier" or "Most challenging" armies for us to face.

This is a little long winded but I think for a tournie type army a level 2 death mage with familiar may be better than shadow with tome based on what I see as the greatest threats from tournie type armies. Feel free to read below to see my reasons.


I personally find lizzies and heavy template based shooting ie empire and dwarves are very challenging this edition. Daemons as well can be just as nasty as last addition. With the rules changes concerning the impact of the bsb it is almost the top priority target.
So taking that into consideration I think you might have to really balance the death vs shadow argument.

I honestly believe dark is the best bet for a 4th with the dagger as you can potentially (I know not likely but possible) cast all your spells even if you get the infamous double ones.

So if you look at your potential spells from dark you have 2 spells that can hurt enemy shooting, 3 that do direct damage at ok ranges with some secondary effects ie shooting impact and character pinging and then 2 mass affect spells one of which is castable into cc.

We still are missing anything over 24 inch range and no mass boster spells for our units.

Shadow covers that need to a better extent than death in my opion.

The problem I do have though is what I see as the big threats from those top tier lists:
Lizzies: the slan life casting monster, I fear this more than anything else this edition
salamanders, what I fear second most in this edition.

Dwarves and Empire darn stone throwers and the stank.

Daemons well we all know that is a long list but hurting the charcaters takes a lot out of any daemons list followed by flamers and hounds.

The need to get the BSB and enemy mages quickly in some lists.

Now after looking that over I tend to find death can be better because of the sniping spells. I know the range isn't great but you can nail heralds, low level mages, bsbs without wards, salmanders, (unsure about weapons crews the whole mixed profile thing but any engineers are fair game). It just leaves the sily stank but I bring a min of 50 models with rxbs so I will risk shooting at it like crazy.
Of course that still leaves that nightmare slann but I don't think magic will do a lot to it unless you get of an IR stat based spell.

Now the problem with death of course is range, especially since you want to target those long range threats so this is why I feel you might want to consider 2nd level death with the familiar and some mobility. You want the base spell anyway so if you get another snipe spell great if not oh well.

[Krueger1981]

Stank's aren't a worry with shadow greg pit now affects them, where as shooting 100 shoots a turn at it still needs it to fail it's armor save 2+. Lizards aren't easy to face but i've found them not that hard due to miasma slowing a slann bunker down, and concentrating on smaller units.

I.E. chamelon skinks get bladewinded and chill winded. Shoot bows at sallies, pit a eotg or steg. Whatever you do against them its just stop thrones asap, stop flesh if it is going on a unit your in combat with, don't target a unit they give regen too unless the unit targeting them has flaming. And miasma the holy hell out of the slann bunker or with skinks so he can't get up to threaten dwellars on our casters, bg and so forth.

War machine empire and dwarfes are gonna be hard with the templates if you don't have harpies and shades or if they actually deploy units protecting them.

Honestly the biggest competion we have in my opinion is skaven that spam 13th cause the armies that are suppose to be their hard counter (elite armies get rocked because of that spell) get owned if that spell gets off 2-3 times.

Daemons I don't think are too bad in that the main target everyone should go after is letters without them the army can't function and spaming shots, + chillwind, and word of pain or miasma keeps flamers tolerable.

[Ichiyo1821]

Therefore, Rule #1: A Level 4 caster is necessity for both magical offense and defense.

2. A level 2 caster compliments our magical offense, and provides a fallback

[i]1a. Miasma is the best spell in the lore. Easy to cast and can have a variety of effects from lowering initiative, huge against HE's as it stops re-rolls, to lowering WS so units can hit on 3's and/or be hit on 5's, to lowering BS to effectively stop a unit from shooting at you.

1b. Mindrazor is the most useful spell on the lore for obvious reasons. If you have a choice, always take Mindrazor.

Contradicting statements. Maybe it's just me but Mindrazor is overrated imo. Why? First up, given that you are writing this article for a tournament environment, despite higher initiative, hatred and whatever you throw at it, Dark Elves, though formidable in close combat is still nothing compared to Close Combat focused armies and yes even High Elves can beat us straight up in close combat if tooled right. Regardless how it looks on paper, Mindrazor is the second less useful spell in the Shadow lore. Yes flame me if you guys want but let me explain atleast. The said spell is so situational that it either does a lot in the game or nil and this holds true in ALL Druchii lists regardless if it's close combat, shooting or magic heavy. The 3 debuff spells are by far the most important spells as they cover the weakness of all elven armies and throws it at your opponent making them as frail or weak (in terms of raw Strength) as elves. Mindrazor is a clutch spell and at most just for pyschological warfare.

Making your Elves S8 is almost the same as making your opponent toughness 2 but with a lower casting cost thus viable regardless whether you take a level 1, 2 or Supreme Sorceress. Mindrazor also targets one unit of yours that has to be in close combat against an enemy unit while the 3 debuffs though targets a lone enemy unit allows your entire army to hit that lone unit harder as such is the "Druchii" way of multi charges, mass shooting or magic combos.

Going deeper, if I were to even rate the 3 debuff spells, I'd say that the most important would be Withering, Miasma then Enfeebling. Again the reasons for such is that reducing the toughness of your opponent compliments shooting, close combat and direct damage spells. Miasma then helps you reduce whatever strength your opponent has over your army and when all else fails, Enfeeblement then atleast makes you survive longer, again when you think about it as being in a least favorable close combat situation is what you should be avoiding in the first place.


For those that opt to use magic alone rather using your entire army to handle a specific army, your are not fielding a reliable all comers list that will work all the time. Magic no matter how strong is still more unreliable than shooting or close combat.

As for the Level 4 being necessary, I normally go against level 4 wizards including HE lists with BoH and I must say that depending on your list, a level 4 is not required to have a solid magic defense in games under or at 2500. To be honest the only advantage a level 4 for me at the moment is her magic item allowance. This then is my opinion, when considering a true all comers list, Shadow magic is the most versatile against any army and any scenario.

[Meteor]

Yes I agree with your comments throughout it all, except for the last paragraph. There's many ways to go about defending against magic, I honestly believe a basic Lv4 is the most basic and easiest way to defend against magic. The best way ofcourse, is to neutralise the source of the magic, ie their casters or PD generators, but that's not entirely up to you to control.

That's why I'm a firm believer in both a Lv4 and a mage hunter like an Assassin or KB suicide squads and such.

Otherwise, I absolutely agree with your assessment on the value of the Shadow lore spells. So many situations had me deciding between Enfeebling or Mindrazor on just a few dice for my final spell, I always went with one of the hex spells over Mindrazor because it had a greater chance to succeed and actually save my unit in combat.

[A18no]

Funny, good post. You found exactly the strategy I gave in mine!

But I disgree on some point in the winds of magic:

You want the double, that's right. And and evidence. You don't want the 6-1 roll, it's the worst you can get. But we know that, and can do nothing about that.

Low roll is good like you said, but against High elf, dwarf, empire and goblin, you don't want a double 1 or double 2. When they steal one of you dice, you will be in for as much PD as they get DD. Empire and dwarf can even get more DD than you. If it's the case, you'll NEVER cast PoD. When that happen, I use a lvl 2 with pendant and try a max throw (all my dice, on a double 2, I have 3 left so it's a casting on 3 dices), and hope for the double 6. It's why I gave her the pendant. And I never try that with my lvl 4, she is habitually my general.

You want the double 6 actually for the winds of magic. The Lvl 4 dagger is stronger the more dices you get:

12 dices, take 1 to cast 1 dark magic spells with the dagger sorceress. If the spell is cast with succes, DON'T USE THE DAGGER, even if the casting is low, you want the opponent the dispel, if he don't you've cast a free spell!
11 dices, take 1 and cast another dark magic spell, same strategy
10 dices, one more dark magic spell, low level
9 dices, time for the PoD witht he level 4, like you said on 1 dices, on 5+ no dagger.

After that, 2-3 dices to cast the big dark magic spell. If it's PoD, fine, if not:

6 dices: 1 or 2 spells with 3-6 dices each with the level 2. If you want only 1 to go, throw PoD with the level 2 first, you'll get more dices (opponent will keep some for the big spell, or you'll burn all the DD remaining). After that, big spells (mindrazor, signature spell from shadow, any hex is good too).

Good games! (I've help you to improve your topic i hope)

And try death magic, you need to add to the all comer list.

[Doug]

"12 dices, take 1 to cast 1 dark magic spells with the dagger sorceress. If the spell is cast with succes, DON'T USE THE DAGGER, even if the casting is low, you want the opponent the dispel, if he don't you've cast a free spell!
11 dices, take 1 and cast another dark magic spell, same strategy
10 dices, one more dark magic spell, low level"

Ok maybe I have read this wrong but the BRB states that you are not allowed more than 12 dice at any one time. So you wouldn't have to cast
a spell then the PoD?

[Meteor]

So long as your PD pool count doesn't exceed 12 at any given point in time it's fine.

If you're outnumbered in PD to DD whilst they have a mage on top of that. The best thing to do is throw 4 or 5 dice at a spell and hope that he rolls poorly on his dispel attempt so that mage can't dispel again. Generally aiming at 20+ on the value is difficult to dispel without IF or loads of dice.

It's also why I said it's a good idea to take something to neutralise their wizard or their extra DD source (neutralising wizard is the easier way normally) so your magic phase isn't such a huge struggle.

[Svarthofthi]

The nice thing about the PoK on a sorceress is the ability to risk a miscast without having to worry so much about wounds on her. Mind you there is inherent risk on calamitous detonation but for the most part she can shrug off the high strength wounds.

There is obvious risk versus reward here, but if you're in a situation where your opponent just has too many DD it might be worth while to aim for a miscast if its a particularly edgy turn.

[A18no]

The nice thing about the PoK on a sorceress is the ability to risk a miscast without having to worry so much about wounds on her. Mind you there is inherent risk on calamitous detonation but for the most part she can shrug off the high strength wounds.

There is obvious risk versus reward here, but if you're in a situation where your opponent just has too many DD it might be worth while to aim for a miscast if its a particularly edgy turn.

If your lvl 4 is in the dark lore, you'll probably risk the miscast on the lvl 2 (shadow or death), so the reason the put the PoK on the lvl 2 is there.

[Entreri bloodletter]

What do you think about adding a third sorceress to the list? With my proposed setup you will add to magic defense and offense for a very cheap price.

Level 1 Sorceress, Channeling Staff(I think that's the name), and Seal of Grond.

So she clocks in at 145 points but for this amount over the course of the game you will get 6 extra DD from the seal, six chances at single die casting PoD-assuming it doesn't get dispelled it will on average give 8 extra PD a game, in addition you can expect an additional 2 PD and 2 DD from channeling.

Now all those extra dice are nice, but being a level one you usually can't take advantage of them. If you take Fire lore(recommended) you can choose which level of fireball to cast based on how successful you are at generating dice that turn. This gives it both flexibility and reliability in damage potential.

Some say that the points are better spent elsewhere, so let's look real quick at some comparisons between this and a reaper bolt thrower. Maybe not the best comparison but I think it's close since they have the same Strength and range.

So 115 pts of Level 1 Sorceress with Fireball (Only comparing offensive capabilities)
vs.
100 points of Reaper Bolt Thrower

Over the course of the game she should be able to cast fireball 4 times (4 sucessful PoD using 1 die) at the second level using 3(or more from pool to insure success) dice (1+2 from PoD) This gives 8D6 S4 hits which translates to 18.5 wounds against T3 opponents. This does not take into account possible dice from channeling would could make it even better.

The reapers at short range against T3 opponents will have 36 shots, 24 hits(assuming short range) and 16 wounds. Not quite as good as the sorceress. This gets even worse if the target is in cover.

Once you add in Seal of Grond, the sorceress becomes very useful indeed and shouldn't be overlooked.

Dark elves are one of the very few races which can benefit form extra casters and I think it's worth considering when putting together a magic phase. Anyone else have opinions about this setup?

[Meteor]

Difference being, the RBT will always fire until it dies or panics. The fireball may or may not go off depending on your casting luck and whether your opponent decides to stop it or not. But yes, otherwise she's a good generator build, though you're wasting a PD half the time by throwing 1 at her PoD.

Obviously the fireball will always be much more accurate no matter the terrain or positioning of enemy units, so there's merits to both. She'll make an excellent anti skirmisher model by herself. The only issue I have is that too many points will be spent into the magic department (and character slots most likely, since you also may want a BSB). It'll cost you a supporting element for your troops, and on a low roll, you'll struggle to fund all three wizards.

[A18no]

For 3 sorceress, I was thinking about something like that:

Lvl4, dagger, dark lore, ward 4+: 330pts
Lvl2, death, tome, pendant: 185pts
Lvl1, shadow, sceal: 130pts

The shadow caster is there only for the basic spell. I found it very usefull in many situations. And having a little caster for backup could help a lot, with +1DD it's a good gift.

I'll give a try one day or another

[Entreri bloodletter]

But yes, otherwise she's a good generator build, though you're wasting a PD half the time by throwing 1 at her PoD.

Well it's actually only 33% of the time since she gets +1 to cast and so only needs a 3.

But your point is taken about possibly spending too many points on wizards, however with lots of chances at PoD and channeling even a relatively low roll could still see at least a few spells go through.

For 3 sorceress, I was thinking about something like that:

Lvl4, dagger, dark lore, ward 4+: 330pts
Lvl2, death, tome, pendant: 185pts
Lvl1, shadow, sceal: 130pts

The shadow caster is there only for the basic spell. I found it very usefull in many situations. And having a little caster for backup could help a lot, with +1DD it's a good gift.

I'll give a try one day or another

I like that setup as well, but I would add in an arcane item since you don't have any yet. The only problem with that is that you don't get any of the other shadow spells which are quite useful but instead switch it for death spells- I guess its really up to preference at that point.


On a different note, what do you think about single die casting PoD? Obviously the Level 4 with dagger will always do that but on the Level 2 ( or more sorceresses) could it be advantageous to single die cast? Looking over the course of the game you actually get MORE PD from single die casting than you do if you spend 2 dice per casting attempt.

6 shots at PoD needing 3's means 4 successful casts resulting in 8 additional PD per game.
Using two dice you will get (almost always) 6 successful casts resulting in a total of 6 PD per game (2 times you will only break even).

If you time your PoD casting at the right time you won't lose anything and stand to gain a lot. If you cast PoD as your second to last spell (intending to cast one more) people are less likely to dispel it and you will get another spell off.

The disadvantages is that it is more risky and is easier to dispel and so should be used with caution. Note: I haven't actually tried this yet but it could be something worth exploring if anyone is up to the challenge.

[Meteor]

I've tried taking 3 sorceresses as a bit of an experiment whilst playing a special scenario. There was a Lv4, a Lv2 and a Lv1 with Sac Dagger. All with lore of fire. The tactic was spam fireball at a single target and mess around with the +D3 booster. It worked alright, single die PoD kinda worked, but it wasn't like as though it improved my magic phase significantly.

And yes sorry, you're wasting a PD 1/3 of the time since it's 1 and 2 that's auto fail.

[Pjeos]

Hi there,

I'm definitely against taking Death Lore. So many people state that it's a snipping Lore to take down characters but I just find people is being too optimistic about chances of killing characters with Death Lore.

First of all, it's got a poor range. Most of the times, this will mean you'll be casting empowered spells so you'll be casting less spells, less chances to take down characters. You may use a DP/DS to improve her movement, bu that will probbly mean she'll leave units and therefore make no use of the Sac Dagger.

Then, you can't know which characters have a 4+WS and which don't. So your first turn you try casting 2 snipping spells at a lvl4, one of which is dispelled and the other one just does nothing against the 4+WS.

Which leads to the following issue. Magic is already random, and Death Lore is the most random Lore. I mean, imagine that you do successfuly cast #2. Then, you must roll to see how many "hits" the target will take. Ater that, each hit will wound with 4+. Eventually, each wound can be saved with the 4+WS. If you get an average roll, it won't kill any important character.

Signature spell is just hard to use. If your Lvl4 is L9 it will struggle to take down L10 generals. If you place her in a Warriors unit with the Discipline Banner, she gets L10 but she losses range and flexibility, back to casting empowered spells.

#5, Bjuna's Fate, is only 12 inches, no empowered version.

Doom and Darkness is a great spell though. Purple Sun is priceless against Dwarves and Lizzies, two of the hardest matches for us Druchii in 8ed imho.

So I wouldn't say that Death Lore is character snipping, but character frightener. And it also has two great spells but those are not at all character sniping.

On the other hand, Shadow Lore can actually put enemy characters in trouble. Lower their unit's S by 2 and charge it with an Hydra, see them make 0 wounds and loose by 4-5 and flee. Or just give ANY of our CC units Mindrazor and see them tear enemy characters appart. Appart form that, it can disrupt your opponent's plans by lowering key unit's stats.

Furthermore, Shadow can be used as a defence against enemy magic thanks to allowing us to cast 2 remains-in-play spells. Opponents can either dispell them, allowing you to cast Mindrazor/Pit of Shades (not very common) or ignore them in order to stop Mindrazor/Pit of Shades, hoping to dispell them in his/her next magic phase, so less spells coming.

We can also take advantage of the opponent fearing Mindrazor/PoS. It's a no-win-choice: choose between my spears butchering your WoC w/ Mindrazor and your S4/T3 WoC being butchered by my Hydra. Key here is to create two or more combats at a time (two is ok) so that every single spell casted will pose a sigificant threat to the opponent.

From my PoV, it's cristal clear. Shadow Lore goes first. Dark Lore can be an option. Death Lore just doesn't cut it.

See ya

[Nellamik]

I just skimmed through this post and it is really great.
Had to join in as I did not see mention of Fire

One spell I like is ...
Flaming Sword of Ruin. 8+/11+ Augment Range 24”/48”
Target unit has a +1 bonus when rolling to wound with all shooting & CC attacks until the start of the caster’s next magic phase. They count as flaming and magical A’s.
When using this spell on archers/xbows against war machines they will gain +1 to wound, which (due to the 6 always wounds) means your archers/xbows will be wounding all war machines on a 5+. In fact they'll be wounding everything on a 5+, with flaming attacks as an additional bonus (great against regenerating units, units in buildings and so on) and magical attacks (great against tree spirits, for example).

[Pjeos]

I had never thought of that use for the Flamming Sword of Rhuin. It will certainly came as a surprise for the opponent to see mere xbows taking down warmachines. Anyway, you can actually take them down with Bladewind.

Also, Black Horror will take a wound of every warmachine it touches, so you can couple it with some light shooting to effectively take warmachines down.

[Rkhatzar]

What do you think of combo:
IV lv Metal - Dagger
IIIlv Death - Dark Star Cloak
I lv Shadow - Dispel Scroll

Death will generate DD, and try sniping
Metal will bust units.
Shadow carry DS, add channeling, PoD.
If one fails to cast a spell and case to be able to cast, second will.
Also Death wil be good at middle, and Metal at close and long.
I add them 1 magic item for my army composition [as Guiding Eye].

[Meteor]

Metal can't really bust units. I rarely see many high AS units anymore. Even WoC at 3+ AS isn't an attractive target when you can only do a maximum of D6 hits or 2D6 at improved version for searing doom (right? or was it just extend range?). Cavalry will suffer, but that's about all that's worthwhile for metal to attack. Otherwise stick to Dark or Fire if you want damage. Though fire are all S4 attacks, so that's where its restriction lies, and it's one reason why I find fire less attractive.

3 Wizards don't generally work, I thought it'd work too, but unfortunately I don't think so. I personally struggle to cast all 7 spells and 2 PoD. So I can't imagine three wizards will improve chances that much. Someone else posted in the forum about their experiments with triple wizards, and the end statement was "don't".

[Valkyre]

Metal is not about the signature spell at all, thou its still not bad at all as it is.

remeber you will also wound a dragon on a 3+ with metal signature spell for example (find any other spell that will do that).

metal is about buffs (aiban and glittering robe) and the nr 6 (a mass destruction that is NOT a char test) and a hex that will not be dispellable for the whole game nor run out).

metal has 3 spells that have a target at any phase of the game, can threaten small elite units that are in general not threaten by the other big spells (the sig spell) and can turn your army into elite armour saves,

Its the lore with the best selection of spells we have, as long as ye tailor the list to use them.

shadow, death are all about capitalizing on the weakness of the opponent, and once in a while ye find an opponent that is not weak to them, metal capitalizes on your army instead.

[Meteor]

Have you actually tried lore of metal? It's not much of a unit busting spell either. If you want a unit busting spell, take Dark Magic, or even Fire.