|Good and bad Units in a 2500 list
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|Author:||Jbtheslipperking [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:06 am ]|
|Post subject:||Good and bad Units in a 2500 list|
I've tried out different units and my conclusion so far is:
Big spear block unit with lv4+dagger is a no brainer. Extremely effective magic phase.
6-7 shades + assassin with manbane/rending star combo. Might seem a bit expensive, but the assassin makes the unit very effective in many situations. Those rending stars are really scary on stand and shoot against otherwise hard hitting dudes. Doomwheels, Scrap launchers, lone ogres, small cav units, warmashines in general ofc etc. The unit never fails me.
14 WE with flaming banner. Vulnerable, but if protected it is amazing against trolls, hellpits, small ogre units, difficult high toughness stuff in general. And combined with mindrazor it goes through anything.
Cold one unit with DL on cold one. 6 COK + DL is a rock hard unit. Tried them with the +1 move banner and find it very useful. It is especially useful because of the synergy with the COB giving them extra attack. 16 str 6 attacks rerollable. Charge into blood knights, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 saves. Still 5 net wounds. The unit is crippled unless he's got like 12, but that many points is very rare. This hammer is anyways really good.
Hydra is amazing, but be aware. It can get into trouble. T5 and 5 wound is vulnerable and there are flaming banners and flaming attacks out there. And breath weapon only once per game, remember. Still a no brainer and remember that you hit a lot more models with flame template now, so it's not always good to use it in close combat.
10-20 xb unit is a must. Not always as effective as one thinks, but you need to fill up that core quota and sometimes they are extremely useful. 20 with mus and shield is my choice. They can hold up a flank in many cases.
BG, big units is IMO too expensive because of the new warmachine rules. But I've had great success with a small/medium one. The conga line tactics works nice. Enemy hitting/killing only the champ on the charge. And then in your turn, reform and hit with everyone. They got charged by 8 ogres with 2 heroes in it. Killed champ, I reform, extra attack from COB and then mindrazor from my lv4 with dagger. 27 str 9 attacks with reroll hitting on 3+ wounding on 2+. My opponent went pale, I can assure you.
Harpies of course, 2x5 or 2x6, cheap and versatile.
12 corsairs with sss. Sometimes it shines, but sometimes not. Very useful for screening ( giving hard cover against gunlines ) and give them killing blow and they can take a charge from knights ( except dragon ) and do quite well.
COC - not so happy with it. Too slow and too unstable for my taste. To roll 5-6 on impact is good, but roll 1-2 and its bad. Comes in handy sometimes, but it's on and off.
Exec - impossible to succeed in several games with them now. The strike last even on the charge is devastating for a T3 unit. With 20+, hag and ASF banner etc maybe, but then it becomes way too expensive for my taste. Did I mention warmachines?
DR - always used them in 7 ed. But now, not so happy with them. Not being able to do anything useful in the flank of a unit and with the game being so combat oriented instead of manoeuvre/move oriented, they are not performing as reliably as before.
RBT is slightly less effective now and a bit more vulnerable. Still, that single bolt in the flank of a knight unit going all the way through is so nice that it can be worth it.
Anyway, this is just my opinion and experience. Anyone else want to share?
EDIT: Spellcheck by Calisson. I would have apreciated it be done by Bill Gates. I added the colour code, too.
|Author:||Calisson [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:08 pm ]|
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
You did not mention on how many battles you base your judgement, in which environment (tournament, gameclub, friendly home...), against which opponents (all races or predominantly the same 3-4) and if you had time to get used to your list. At least, you mention the size (2500).
My personal experience is highly biased as I play only at home, rather small games (1-2k), against the same 4 races (Dw, Bret, HE, gobs) not that often (9 games with DE) and with ever-changing lists.
However, I can tell that some units - the so-called no-brainer - have a nice value on their own (some people could even complain that they autoplay), some units shine only in specific circumstances, and many otherwise poor units are greatly improved by buffs (COB and magic) or by combinations.
In such a list as what you post above, it is nice to explain that such or such unit can be played alone, while such other unit requires this or that to reveal its full usefulness.
Based on my experience:
A level 4 is enough for the whole magic phase. Her Lore must be chosen base on what your army needs the most. Having trouble with opponent's heroes, I will try Death.
The COB is a no-brainer. It works nice as a BSB, too.
20 SSS AHW corsairs with the help of the COB are very nice. 20 is not always sufficient and they can be beaten.
20 BG, FC, AP rock hard! They die more often than not, but with a high toll for the opponent. The BSB must be close.
5 COK, muso are a bit light. A pennant would help.
The hydra is very often a masterpiece of the army. Still, it will die to prepared foes.
A COC is sturdy but its punch does not last.
10 RXBmen, shield, muso often lack targets when everything is in melee. A standard would help to keep fortitude pts.
5 AHW Shades are nice to disrupt the battleplan.
5-6 harpies are always useful.
DR have trouble indeed to find a role not better performed by shades or Harpies.
|Author:||Jbtheslipperking [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:15 pm ]|
Iv played since 4 ed., but only have so many games played in 8ed. Two tournaments, 2500p no comp and a few private games. Opponents have been skaven, ogre kingdom, dwarfs, he, orcs&gobl, wood elfs. The statements I mention here is by all means just mine and not at all written in stone for DE armies. Im still only getting to grips with the big changes in 8 ed.
And only a few units relies on synergi to work. COK +1 at from COB is really good, KB on corsairs/we is sometimes a must ( facing knights ) and mindrazor on WE/BG when facing big units of ogres and such is totally game winning. And for now, lore of shadow is my favourite. Reducing movement on the hammer units in round 1 tends to frustrate him.
|Author:||Nemesis1020 [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:39 pm ]|
I have been using the DR to just sit on the flank and shoot without line of sight penalties. I know, pretty expensive unit to perform this function, but my Crossbowmen, due to intervening units, have been havign to hit on 6s and 7s, so the DR end up doing about the same amount of wounds. So, as a core filler, I still find them to be useful.
|Author:||Martian [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:57 pm ]|
|Post subject:||Re: Good and bad Units in a 2500 list|
Shouldn't that be.. at the end of combat, reform. And then in your turn hit with everyone?
|Author:||Jbtheslipperking [ Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:51 pm ]|
|Post subject:||Re: Good and bad Units in a 2500 list|
Yepp thats what I meant. Especially useful for taking knights charges and will always buy you enough time to get out of charge arc of the big nasty unit.
|Author:||Tethlis [ Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:12 pm ]|
|Post subject:||Re: Good and bad Units in a 2500 list|
Dreadlord on Dragon with Crimson Death, Pendant of Khaeleth, Blood Armor, full mundane kit is excellent. Some games, he simply walks through the enemy, either terrorizing vulnerable units or else lending unbelievable hitting power to major enemy threats. It's amazing and surprising how difficult it is for many armies to address this guy in 8th edition, simply because they are not used to seeing him. Get him into combat with virtually anything, and he'll just hack down the opposition until you get those VP. The breath weapon makes for a great Panic Button; use it to hose down a big threat and impose Noxious Breath penalties on it, or use it to help generate quick combat resolution in case you get into a trouble. The big problems, of course, are that I can't take a Supreme Sorc with this guy in my list, and some armies have enough warmachines that that the Dragon is dead by Turn 2.
Supreme Sorc in various configurations[/quote] is useful, but I still do not find magic to be a game-winner for me. Given that I tend to roll in the most outrageous fashion, the possibility of losing a 300+ point model through virtue of my own rolling has always made me nervous. Given that 90% of my 8th edition games have resulted in a Dimensional Cascade result that sees my caster sucked into oblivion, I am hesitant to make the Supreme Sorc a dedicated part of my 8th edition builds. Similarly, I am usually incapable of rolling more than 4 Power Dice for Winds of Magic every phase, which means that all her snazzy spells are often wasted. Still, when she delivers, she does so exceedingly well, and the Dark Elf ability to take a low-dice magic phase and crank it up with Power of Darkness/Sac Dagger is quite nice.
30 spearmen, full command, shields consistently delivers. I love these guys. They can hold up most opponents very well, don't give up too many kills when part of a combined charge, and even if they die horribly they still don't give up many Victory Points. So good I take two of them in 2500.
6-7 shades + assassin with manbane/rending star Good in some circumstances. I've had them suffer a few very unfortunate deaths due to outrageous rolling, and they really seem to love to Panic right before they charge into a crucial enemy warmachine, but they utterly terrorize opponents. Having trouble with monsters? These guys are the single best solution we have to them.
Hydra delivers well, but dies much easier than it used to. Almost always worthwhile for the threat it generates and attention it receives, but I find that mine doesn't survive games nearly as frequently as it did in 7th edition.
Cauldron of Blood BSB is strong. What, only a yellow rating!? Well, I do feel that a lot of points are being paid for a unit that really just follows everything else around. I don't think it's a bad mechanic, since obviously the BSB re-rolls and Cauldron buffs tend to be much more effective than the Death Hag herself could ever be in combat, but the slow movement speed of the Cauldron makes the unit feel a bit ponderous and awkward when you're attacking all-out with your quick Elven regiments.
20 repeater crossbowmen with musician, standard, shields are decent. I've been really disappointed with their shooting, but I also tend to roll poorly almost always. Still, decent for shooting pressure, and they really shine in close combat. Late-game, when both an opponent and I may be stretched thin and fighting across multiple fronts, these guys can get into combat and really swing the game with a decisive charge or by holding a flank. They're also a great place for a Sorc to hang out, able to shoot down/fight off enemy hunters.
20 Black Guard with full command, Armor of Darkness, Banner of Murder is my favorite unit in my list. With Cauldron Buff and properly screened, they can absorb missile fire surprisingly well and draw stonethrower shots away from my Hydra and Cauldron. Even a single rank of them making it into combat is wildly effective; I've had games which I was certain I would lose, only to watch these guy chainsaw their way through multiple enemy regiments without yielding any Victory Points at all.
Cold One Chariot is excellent for its points. It's durable and hard-hitting enough that the enemy has to regard it as a fair threat, and it can easily go after those light trash units (weapon teams, shooting regiments, warmachines, skirmishers) that are threatening to the rest of your army but not major enough to allocate a full-size regiment to attacking. This guy turns 30 spearmen from a tarpit into a regiment-breaking offensive threat, and is great for efficiently chasing down fleeing Victory Points while your other units reform to face new threats. With more of my points invested in fewer units, Cold One Chariots add flexibility which just really can't be matched by any other unit in the list.
Not really any negative ratings assigned to these units, because I always try to be really efficient and versatile when building my lists.
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:15 am ]|
I've played a lot in 8th ed and almost all at 2500 to 2750 points in empires campaigns and local tourneys and indy GT's.
A hydra is essential now to survive, two is better. However, hydras are vulnerable to certain shooting and magic, especially a dwarf cannon with re-rolls and flaming. A unit of flamers is a real problem but, once in combat, they kill their points worth every time, even if they die. A hydra supported by or run in support with a large COK unit is pretty devastating (read following discussion on COK unit with ASF banner and cauldron combo).
I've had limited success with corsairs trying a number of variations, other than as a small to medium sized screening/flanking unit. I found the RHB version very useful as a medium sized unit with the quick-to-fire and stand and shoot ability at short range to be excellent at horde armies like skaven and lower T and AS armies (elves and skaven) but a waste against warriiors of chaos.
Spearman unit with lvl 4 and sac dagger is very good but a warmachine magnet. Spearmen are generally inferior to RXB warriors absent the sac dagger. I use the standard of disciplne to boost LD for panic checks.
COK units are not very effective run smaller but become very very good with 8 to 12 models with ASF banner (cold ones striking first and riders re-roll to hit when I = or better than opponent). The unit will eventually die with T3 and only 2+ AS but I put a dreadlord on cold one with whip of agony (+1A, AP, and S5 unmodifiable), pendant, and crown of command (stubborn) in order to tar pit a tough unit and the dreadlord gets the benefit of the ASF banner and is almost never killed (only lost once in 20+ competitive tourney games). The I run a BSB in or nearby on dark steed with dragonhelm (gets to 1+AS with HA, cloak, shield and mount) and dawnstone and sword of might. This unit has tremendous synergy with the cauldron and almost will never fail the stupidity check. I've charged the dreadlord and/or BSB out solo to tie up a very tough unit and or go after war machines (shooting gaps between units is allowed on the charge, only time 1" apart rule can be avoided). The unit is vulnerable to dwellers and shooting and needs to get into combat quickly to minimize such exposure. T3 and 2+ AS will only last so long but the unit with a stubborn dreadlord and BSB nearby will survive a lot of rounds of combat, tying up a very tough unit and doing enough damage to characters and killing enough models in turn to earn its keep. It is surprising how often the last COK (the standard bearer as I do not pay for the champ) dies in the sixth round only after I've killed (with the dreadlord and BSB) key characters and most of the models and then finished off the opposing unit with a hydra or dark rider charge in the end. Killing off characters (including wizards and runelords) removes magic defenses. With PoD and sac dagger, the spells get through in the second half of the battle (rounds 3 to 6). A soul stealer can be cast into combat and a withering plus soul stealer combo will chew up the tough tarpitted unit and make the caster with soul stealer more difficult to kill. Also, have added a master on dark steed with ring, beastmaster's scourge and good armour save as a dual warmachine hunter (magic cloak), mage hunter, and to mess up high elf and lizardmen lvl 4 mages. The ring actually works very well in that I can cast into the range of the ring and the caster (esp if Slann in TG unit stuck to my dreadlord) must move to get out of range or is stuck in range of the ring.
I have had mixed success with BG unit. They need to be protected too much (cauldron ward save, lore of metal augment to AS, and/or screened) due to magic and war machine shooting being more effective against this unit.
Execs striking last always is a disaster too often for T3 5+ AS models that are expensive. They can't kill enough in return often enough (unless facing chaos knights and a larger unit) to be worthwhile. The Death Hag BSB with ASF banner only lets the execs strike with I order and the death hag BSB is too easily killed too often to be exposed to combat just to solve a problem, especially when the ASF banner works so well with COK and BG units with dreadlords and masters.
Witches are similarly too vulnerable to shooting, magic and combat with the step up rule to be worthwhile unless run close to a cauldron and in a modest-sized unit for protecting the cauldron, flank protection, and flank attacks (where the enemy unit is alreay in combat and has limited ability to strike back and the flank charge is not likely to disrupt ranks but will give a +1CR benefit and help finish off the unit). Thus, I've only had success with smaller units of 10 to 12. At that size, they can waste shooting war machines and spells at them if that saves my hydras and COK unit.
My experience with Dark Riders has been more positive than expected. With RXB's, they are effective threats with vanguard move against war machines and lighter units. They can die, but other are ignored and pick away with shooting and add CR by charging a flank and can run down depleted units for the VPs (dead of fled rule). Harpies are more mixed but are critical for dealing with war machines that are otherwise screened from the DR units cannons (which are a big threat to the hydras). I typically only run one DR and one harpy unit (6 models each), keep the harpies in range of the lord and BSB if possible until time to charge out.
I've not been able to get my witches to play out and have found a death hag BSB with ASF does not play out well with execs reliably enough to work.
Assassins die too easily with warmachines, magic, step up rule, etc. Shades have the same problems. Maybe a surprise unit of shades with an assassin with stars and manbane can be used to hunt war machines and shoot stuff and character hunt, but it is too many points relative to more resilient and reliable units.
Above 2000 points, a cauldron is almost a necessity although I often run a master BSB (see COK discussion). The unit can die but even war machines think twice before shooting the T10 and 4+ ward save unit. If the enemy finally get something through to attack it, it had better be very well protected with armour and lethal and, yet, it still will take a few turns often to kill the cauldron.
RXB units are best run larger (14 to 20 in two ranks) than in 8th edition but are the best core when run with shields, musicians for the swift reform. I'm having a lot of success with S3, AP shooting taking down over time hellcannons and warshrines and stuff one might not expect to kill. These units are effective and threatening enough that the opponent must deal with them, cannot use light cav or skirmish units to kill them and, thus, must direct something of value to the task. You may only get a couple of wounds per round of shooting something tougher with more armour, like warriors of chaos, but the point value earned is worth it. Standards are generally a waste as these units are often sacrificed to take a charge, stand and shoot, get killed by war machines or magic, and/or serve to redirect a tough unit away from other stuff. When used sacrificially, then smaller units can still make sense. It is hard to kill off the entire unit in combat or shooting or magic, so, if they flee (and they often will eventually) and don't flee off the board, they are either not caught and can run away to reform and reposition to avoid losing the VPs or force the enemy unit to chase to kill them and unable to combat reform to do something more valuable. Often one unit of RXBs will be sacrificed to deplete a very tough opposiing unit but the opposing unit is out of position for a couple of turns and the second RXB unit and magic further depletes the tough unit until it can be dealt with (like by a hydra).
RBTs are still good but not nearly as valuable as before relativer to hydras and seem to be killed much more oftren and much more easily in 8th edition by shooting (chameleons and similar scouting units), fast cav with vanguard rule (although the RBTs can kill its worth in two turns against them), magic (fail I tests), and counterbattery fire (with no guess range, cannons and throwers just kill RBTs too easily).
|Author:||Babnik [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:15 am ]|
Hi Druchii fellows,
So far, I have fielded our legions in 2 tournaments. Means 10 games + 6 home games.
At 2,500, my list is more or less finalized with:
Large unit of COK. 10 to 14. Very resistant, can't take a lot of damages thanks to the +2 save, ITP and COB ward save (usually for the first 2 rounds). I call it my swiss bank account. Just because my COK represent 20% up to 33% of my whole army points. As 50% casualties do not give away VP anymore, there are always couple of COK left at the end of round 5.
Furthermore with ASF banner and sometimes Hydra bsb, they simply crush any opponent. Recently, I drove over 10 Chaos knights, 30 bloodletters. The only unit who managed to resist were these god damned swordmasters!
24 Xbm. Compulsory for core units slots. More versatile than spearmen and corsairs.
28 witch elves. Just great. High I and multiple attacks make them irresistible against any blocks of infantry. Even against swordmasters (I5 so no hitting reroll). Just make sure they are in combat in round 2-3.
24 execs. I just love these guys, I was used to play in 7th ed so they are obviously in my 8th games! However, they can't fight any units. Cavalry OK, single attacks infantry ok. Multiple attacks infantry NOT OK!
6 Dark riders. If you don't manage to get in combat with the warmachines crew, they are just useless. You give VP away to easily.
I still need to try properly harpies and shades. But I think they should do well against heavy artillery. However, they are useless against VC, Chaos, daemons, etc... Concerning our über monster, the hydra, I know it is a must have and I have 4 of them on my shelf. But I just don't like to field it. Too cheezy for me.
|Author:||Guinea pig hydra [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:41 am ]|
Out of interest what formation do you play these two units?
|Author:||Babnik [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:49 am ]|
Xbm: 2 ranks x 12. Then it depends of charging foe and casualties. Can reform into 3x8 or 4x6. Last option I found the best. 24 bolts when stand and shoot
WE: 4 ranks of 7. Ranks depth is not an issue as I usually have COB around to keep them stubborn.
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