At the same time, why not giving the ASF banner to the BSB... ouch!!
Because nobody would be so stupid as to charge it.
Hellebron?
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
There are too many un-answered questions about Hellebron being able to "accompany" a CoB. It is mostly considered to be overlooked in the FAQ either way.
I for one think she may. However, I will not do it because it could be contentious if some of these rule questions should arise during game play. I play for fun, not to argue. I can only speak for myself in that regard.
Looking at it from others points of view, GamesWorkshop could easily remove the one sentence from pg66 on Hellebrons profile and end it all.
Now, I wold enjoy finding out your game results with her as I bet it will be fun. Please share your outcome after you have played !
I for one think she may. However, I will not do it because it could be contentious if some of these rule questions should arise during game play. I play for fun, not to argue. I can only speak for myself in that regard.
Looking at it from others points of view, GamesWorkshop could easily remove the one sentence from pg66 on Hellebrons profile and end it all.
Now, I wold enjoy finding out your game results with her as I bet it will be fun. Please share your outcome after you have played !
Too Cold
Only Khaine can judge me!
Only Khaine can judge me!
Army book > rulebook.
However, as Red... states, 'accompany' is an undefined term.
She cannot buy a COB as an upgrade, as there is no price mentioned for it. So she is not replacing the DH.
Let's suppose that 'accompany' means 'join'.
- It must be agreed by the opponent, since the rulebook never uses 'accompany'.
It wound not be wise to count on that interpretation during a tournament, better ask before.
- Crone must be on foot, of course
- Category:
What would it be?
To count the whole combined unit as a warmachine, that would be too harsh: only the COB should autofail S or I test, but Crone should be allowed to pass the tests.
On the other hand, counting the whole unit as anything other than warmachine would be too cheesy: why would an accompanied COB become suddenly immune to autofail tests and impassable terrain?
Therefore, the category could only be "unique" (p.87), requiring detailed explanations as below.
Basically, this could be applying all warmachine rules to the warmachine part of the unit, and all infantry rules to the Crone part of the unit.
- Formation:
is it a skirmisher formation? This would explain the word "accompany" rather than "join".
However, the skirmishing rules would apply only for the formation, being charged, and the free reform.
The combined unit could not claim any other effect which would make the accompanied COB better than the lone COB, so no benefit when being shot at (too cheesy), no benefit for any terrain (too cheesy).
The alternative is that Crone and the COB would be set in contact base to base, and the COB attendants would be placed anywhere (they are irrelevant for any effect whatsoever). There would be no rule problem. However, that would not explain anymore "accompany" rather than "join".
- Movement.
No way it would move like skirmisher, because that would be too cheesy.
To make the whole unit move like a warmachine (impassable terrain, no march...) is the only reasonable option.
- Ward save:
the COB has it, not Crone. Rationale: the DE army book says that the COB has a ward save, not the unit.
- Magic resistance:
Crone has a special rule to cancel the first spell cast at the whole unit with 50% prob.
- Shooting:
as p.99, half of the shots go to Crone, half to the COB, the odd one is your choice.
- Template shooting:
as p.99, hit both if both are under the template; no Look Out, Ma'am.
- Charging from the unit:
as p.101, Crone can leave the unit and charge, naturally.
- Charging the unit:
this is blurry, the unit is not anymore only a warmachine. Let's assume it is like charging a regular skirmisher unit (narrowing the formation).
- Challenges:
Crone is able to challenge and answer challenges.
- In close combat:
The opponent chooses if he hits Crone or if he hits the COB. A max of 6 models can hit the COB. No maximum exist for Crone.
- CR:
of course, the unit is stubborn. It has the Ld10 general and the BSB.
As you see, there are some blurry fields left over by the word 'accompany' interpreted as 'join'.
This is why the wisest would be not to pay attention to that word, except for friendly fluffy home games.
EDITED to include the unit category and provide more details.
However, as Red... states, 'accompany' is an undefined term.
She cannot buy a COB as an upgrade, as there is no price mentioned for it. So she is not replacing the DH.
Let's suppose that 'accompany' means 'join'.
- It must be agreed by the opponent, since the rulebook never uses 'accompany'.
It wound not be wise to count on that interpretation during a tournament, better ask before.
- Crone must be on foot, of course
- Category:
What would it be?
To count the whole combined unit as a warmachine, that would be too harsh: only the COB should autofail S or I test, but Crone should be allowed to pass the tests.
On the other hand, counting the whole unit as anything other than warmachine would be too cheesy: why would an accompanied COB become suddenly immune to autofail tests and impassable terrain?
Therefore, the category could only be "unique" (p.87), requiring detailed explanations as below.
Basically, this could be applying all warmachine rules to the warmachine part of the unit, and all infantry rules to the Crone part of the unit.
- Formation:
is it a skirmisher formation? This would explain the word "accompany" rather than "join".
However, the skirmishing rules would apply only for the formation, being charged, and the free reform.
The combined unit could not claim any other effect which would make the accompanied COB better than the lone COB, so no benefit when being shot at (too cheesy), no benefit for any terrain (too cheesy).
The alternative is that Crone and the COB would be set in contact base to base, and the COB attendants would be placed anywhere (they are irrelevant for any effect whatsoever). There would be no rule problem. However, that would not explain anymore "accompany" rather than "join".
- Movement.
No way it would move like skirmisher, because that would be too cheesy.
To make the whole unit move like a warmachine (impassable terrain, no march...) is the only reasonable option.
- Ward save:
the COB has it, not Crone. Rationale: the DE army book says that the COB has a ward save, not the unit.
- Magic resistance:
Crone has a special rule to cancel the first spell cast at the whole unit with 50% prob.
- Shooting:
as p.99, half of the shots go to Crone, half to the COB, the odd one is your choice.
- Template shooting:
as p.99, hit both if both are under the template; no Look Out, Ma'am.
- Charging from the unit:
as p.101, Crone can leave the unit and charge, naturally.
- Charging the unit:
this is blurry, the unit is not anymore only a warmachine. Let's assume it is like charging a regular skirmisher unit (narrowing the formation).
- Challenges:
Crone is able to challenge and answer challenges.
- In close combat:
The opponent chooses if he hits Crone or if he hits the COB. A max of 6 models can hit the COB. No maximum exist for Crone.
- CR:
of course, the unit is stubborn. It has the Ld10 general and the BSB.
As you see, there are some blurry fields left over by the word 'accompany' interpreted as 'join'.
This is why the wisest would be not to pay attention to that word, except for friendly fluffy home games.
EDITED to include the unit category and provide more details.
Last edited by Calisson on Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
I think I'll ask to the organisation team. They are used to organise no-limits tourney so they'll be excited to work on Calisson's assumptions!
3 weeks to go before lists submission closing date... Time to think and rethink the Hellebron option. Of course I'll debrief. You can find pics and short report of my tourneys on facebook. Look for Babnik Kalinina.
@Dalamar. Nobody would charge it? If you move your COB in front of opponent unit, usually to divert a charge on your pricey unit flank, you'll get the charge!
Cheers
3 weeks to go before lists submission closing date... Time to think and rethink the Hellebron option. Of course I'll debrief. You can find pics and short report of my tourneys on facebook. Look for Babnik Kalinina.
@Dalamar. Nobody would charge it? If you move your COB in front of opponent unit, usually to divert a charge on your pricey unit flank, you'll get the charge!
Cheers
Our club's facebook page:
Fantastique Bataillon de Joinville
Look for French tourneys pics galleries!
Fantastique Bataillon de Joinville
Look for French tourneys pics galleries!
@Babnik:
Just because you move a unit in front of an enemy unit doesn't mean he's going to charge it: no one in their right mind is going to attack an I8 WS7 5-7 attacks S10 monster, even if they don't realise that it has ASF (I8 will still let Hellebron strike first nearly all of the time). And I believe that the COB still can't charge...
It's also worth noting that if more than one models have ASF they now strike at the same time (rather than in initiative order as in 7th). That means if Hellebron is ever confronted by an ASF foe then she is toast, even if she herself has ASF. I can't imagine any less fitting end for the Hag Queen than being jabbed to death by goblins who have been buffed by the 'Bash Em Ladz' spell (confers ASF and allows re-rolls of missed hits)...
Just because you move a unit in front of an enemy unit doesn't mean he's going to charge it: no one in their right mind is going to attack an I8 WS7 5-7 attacks S10 monster, even if they don't realise that it has ASF (I8 will still let Hellebron strike first nearly all of the time). And I believe that the COB still can't charge...
It's also worth noting that if more than one models have ASF they now strike at the same time (rather than in initiative order as in 7th). That means if Hellebron is ever confronted by an ASF foe then she is toast, even if she herself has ASF. I can't imagine any less fitting end for the Hag Queen than being jabbed to death by goblins who have been buffed by the 'Bash Em Ladz' spell (confers ASF and allows re-rolls of missed hits)...
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
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@Dalamar. Nobody would charge it? If you move your COB in front of opponent unit, usually to divert a charge on your pricey unit flank, you'll get the charge!
They'll just walk around it, really. CoB can't charge, ever.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Calisson, your work is nice, but a little complicated to my taste.
Can you honestly treat Hellebron as a new crew... Exactly like ugrade as for dwarf engeneer?
CoB with Hellebron work exactly like any other CoB, except that the unit got 7 wounds and more attacks. The last 3 wounds are from Hellebron. Nothing Else change...
You say that Hellebron can't miss stats test because she join the cauldron, but the Hag can be taken seperatly too, and failed when equipped with a CoB..
Can you honestly treat Hellebron as a new crew... Exactly like ugrade as for dwarf engeneer?
CoB with Hellebron work exactly like any other CoB, except that the unit got 7 wounds and more attacks. The last 3 wounds are from Hellebron. Nothing Else change...
You say that Hellebron can't miss stats test because she join the cauldron, but the Hag can be taken seperatly too, and failed when equipped with a CoB..
@ a18no
Play Crone "accomanying" a COB as you wish.
It will be house rules in all cases.
It cannot be otherwise because "accompany" is defined nowhere, so no rule tell you what happens when she does it.
-A) if you interpret "accompany" as "take a COB upgrade", you have to assume that the cost of the COB is the same as for a DH (there is no COB listed as option for Crone), just that Crone replaces the DH (total 5 wounds). The total pts for the model would be all within the Lord %.
-B) if you interpret "accompany" as "to become one more attendant of the COB, in addition to the DH", as you seem to do, then she has not to pay for it. But you need to specify that, like the DH, Crone cannot leave the COB during the whole game. Would the total pts of the model be only lord, or split between lord & hero (strange for a single model)?
-C) If you interpret "accompany" as "able to join", then you have to define all the corrisponding rules, as I did. At least, the army composition is clear.
The two interpretations A) and B) make that COB extremely expensive. IMO, a second COB would be better.
Play Crone "accomanying" a COB as you wish.
It will be house rules in all cases.
It cannot be otherwise because "accompany" is defined nowhere, so no rule tell you what happens when she does it.
-A) if you interpret "accompany" as "take a COB upgrade", you have to assume that the cost of the COB is the same as for a DH (there is no COB listed as option for Crone), just that Crone replaces the DH (total 5 wounds). The total pts for the model would be all within the Lord %.
-B) if you interpret "accompany" as "to become one more attendant of the COB, in addition to the DH", as you seem to do, then she has not to pay for it. But you need to specify that, like the DH, Crone cannot leave the COB during the whole game. Would the total pts of the model be only lord, or split between lord & hero (strange for a single model)?
-C) If you interpret "accompany" as "able to join", then you have to define all the corrisponding rules, as I did. At least, the army composition is clear.
The two interpretations A) and B) make that COB extremely expensive. IMO, a second COB would be better.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
For what it's worth, I got 1st place in the 'Ard boyz prelims, semifinals, and finals using Hellebron. I'll write up a big old battle report if folks are interested.
Oh, and I never ran her in a Cauldron as I'm fairly certain it's not legal. Yes, her entry about accompanying Cauldrons was not errated out, and yes, Army Books normally trump main rules book... but even in the win-at-all costs Ardboyz setting, I always run with the least permissive rules possible. Besides, nothing in the FAQed rules supports circumstances of an Hellebron joining in so if you're going to RAW her accompanying clause, you also have to RAW the 'remove the warmachine on the 4th wound' clause and have her die with the unit.
Oh, and I never ran her in a Cauldron as I'm fairly certain it's not legal. Yes, her entry about accompanying Cauldrons was not errated out, and yes, Army Books normally trump main rules book... but even in the win-at-all costs Ardboyz setting, I always run with the least permissive rules possible. Besides, nothing in the FAQed rules supports circumstances of an Hellebron joining in so if you're going to RAW her accompanying clause, you also have to RAW the 'remove the warmachine on the 4th wound' clause and have her die with the unit.
? What was your list like? How was Hellebron in action and what did you run her with?
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Svarthofthi
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