Shooting Effectiveness in 8th
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Author:  Nemesis1020 [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting Effectiveness in 8th

I am currently working on building a couple of tournament lists (2200, 2500, and 3000) and was wondering what luck people have had with shooting so far in 8th. Specifically, how many crossbowmen vs warriors or other core choices to take for these lists.

My experience with crossbowmen haven't been stellar thus far. I tend to face a lot bigger units, so widdling down 10-15 out of 50 (5 wide) before they get to me doesn't seem to have made that big of a difference. Also, the penalties I have been taking to shooting with the new line of site rules have also caused me to miss a lot more. Dark Riders and Shades have been performing well as they can get more out in the open and do not have intervening units to shoot around as often.

So, have you guys been employing more, less, or around the same amount of crossbowmen in your core? Have you opted to take more Dark Riders or Warriors instead?


Author:  Martian [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:04 pm ]
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I like crossbows when I have a big unit that hasn't moved, less than 12" away from the target. That doesn't happen very often, and if it does, you're probably opting to shoot over reforming in preparation for being charged in the next turn.

Anything else and you're likely hitting on sixes. If that's the case, then getting 10-15 out of 50 is not a bad result at all.

So far in 8th, I get much more mileage from corsairs.

Author:  Truant [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:11 pm ]
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I Find shooting in 8th making excellent damage.

however not on regular rxb's.

my use of crossbows so far is made from DR's
(yes no-one else seems to use them but I find them extremly handy)
and of course shades.

shades are amazing shooters, and with skirmish they tend to survive both template (the enemy chooses something else) or BS weapons, however they do die from MM, but I always use a lvl 4 defensive mage.

the Rxb's are very useful for tournaments that contains contesting or other objectives since they can hold an objective and still be effective.
they're also amazing together with metal/shadow, however I don't count on my magic working every time.

You shouldn't see shooting as the "way to kill an opponent".
You must choose wisely where to target, and killing "10-15 ppl" is very good.
the 2 ranks can be the difference between steadfast and not steadfast for your other melee troops.

To summirize my thoughts.
I gor for Rxb's when I make a heavy special infantry list (BG+WE+Exec).

I go for warriors/corsairs + DR when I make a CoK/CoC/hydra list.

I don't count on my rxb to annihilate the enemy but to soften him up so my other units can kill them.

Author:  Malus99 [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:30 pm ]
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I find that I am using shades about as much as before (lots), dark riders with crossbows about as much as before (almost never, they are almost always hitting on 5s or 6s which just isn't enough with so few for so many points) and RXBs way more than before because they can shoot in two ranks. A unit of RXBs can put out alot more shots and are semi-decent in combat compared to before, so I find them a much better option now.

Author:  Sulla [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:01 am ]
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I haven't been all that impressed with my crossbows in 8th.

For my usual opponents, I rank my core thusly; Corsairs #1, DRs #2, rxbs #3 and warriors #4 (they lose out the most because of big templates making them lose steadfast before they make it to combat, and because they are poor at house-fighting.

I haven't had much success with crossbows in this edition due to huge deathstar opponents and reduced shooting time. My priorities are infantry that can still fight well after taking a template hit or two, and fast cav to hunt war machines or sjuicide to buy a turn or two. I usually only take small units of rxbs to host a sorceress.

Author:  Meteor [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:10 am ]
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I normally rely on two groups of 5 Shades and a group of 6 DRs to do my shooting, and normally that's all I take. I've discovered that I had quite a fair bit of problem against HE in combat, so I've begun to field 20 RxBs, in two lots of 10x2 to kill soft T3 targets, like HE.

In which case, if the enemy does have T3 low armoured troops, shooting is devastating when combined. Otherwise, don't expect too much from your missile troops, especially the RxBs

Author:  Jbtheslipperking [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:43 pm ]
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Shooting has fantastic synergi with shadow magic, The withering. -D3T + 80 S3 ap arrows is a nasty combination. Depending on the scenarios and terrain in the tournament I would field 2x20 or 4x10 w shields and mus, but not standard.

Author:  xFallenx [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:26 pm ]
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Love my RxB's. I used 2x20 this past weekend to great effect against VC. They poped 2 units(25) of Skellies without the help of spells. Not too bad.

Author:  Auere [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:51 pm ]
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From my experience, RxBs are not worth it. My opponents always stay out of range, take cover, use skirmishers or force them to move, which means that only 6s hits anyway.

It is kinda laughable to see 20-30 crossbows do 5 casualties to the enemy, and afterwards hit them with a dragon egg or hydra breath and kill 15+ enemies.

On the other half I have had great succes with shades. Their scout position makes sure that they have an ideal shooting position, and their increased ballistic skill makes them do pretty heavy damage. They can march+shoot which means that they can shoot people on close range while threathening to charge a warmaschine or similar. Works very well.

Shooting with dark elves is for me: 2 hydras, 2-3 x 5 shades and perhaps a dragon egg or lifetaker. Both are good magic items well worth their points.

Dark Elves have hatred and are born for close combat. That is where we win the game.

Author:  Red... [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:02 pm ]
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At first glance I misread the thread title as "Shouting Effectiveness in 8th", to which I thought: "probably about the same as in 7th! :P)

Back on topic: Shooting has obviously had a bit of a boost in 8th, as you can now fire in two ranks (twice as many shots), reform and shoot if you pass a leadership test (great for dealing with pesky skirmishers and fast cavalry flanking forces), and use the added ranks that you can fire with to boost your staying potential if charged.

I'm still in mixed minds about RxBs: I think they are good for trimming the enemy and dealing with lighter threats, but no, absolutely do not rely on them for making an impact against your opponent's army as a whole: its too hard to hit, too hard to wound and not enough impact on armour saves. 21 RxBs opening fire on a unit of orcs at long range hit on 5s: so get 14 hits on average, wound on 5s: so get 5 wounds on average. That's not even thirty points dead from a unit costing over 200 points.

That said, they are better against some opponents than others: T4 foes? Absolutely not. Heavily armoured foes? Not a good idea. Cheap hordes? Useful, but too many to make a real dent. Expensive High elves with T3 and 5+ armour saves? Let the carnage begin :)

Shades cost a ton and die very easily. Not for my tastes personally.

Reapers are golden, but I tend to take just one. Any more and they become too much of a points sink. But one? It's just powerful and versatile enough to do regular damage against the enemy and worry any flying monsters, but not expensive enough to break the bank and doesn't force me to adopt an overly static position :)

Author:  Tethlis [ Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:56 pm ]
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Red... wrote:
At first glance I misread the thread title as "Shouting Effectiveness in 8th", to which I thought: "probably about the same as in 7th! :P)



I have been very disappointed with the shooting of my repeater crossbowmen. In combat, however, they are top notch. Their role as a shooting unit means that enemies either tend to feed them disposable troops, which the crossbowmen can easily shoot down and beat in combat, or they ignore them entirely in favor my other combats threats, which allows the crossbowmen to serve as a brilliant support unit. I have turned many games around with crossbow charge.

I find that a unit of 20 with full command and shields is a great way to fill up Core requirement, put a little pressure on the enemy, and give your Sorc a place to sit. Their shooting can be excellent versus lightly armored, expensive opponents, but I wouldn't rely on it to actually be game-breaking. Let it harass your opponent, soften them up for combat and draw attention away from your more important things, then reform them and be ready for combat late-game.

Author:  Vulcan [ Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:28 am ]
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Yes, the close combat abilities of the RXBs is their real strength, not their shooting.

They have the same WS, S, and T as Spearmen, Corsairs, and even Witches. They have better protection (through the Parry save) than any other DE infantry unit. If you take enough of them in a unit (25-30), they make great late-game infantry blocks to charge in and help break the enemy once and for all.

Bonus points if you can make your charge downhill in the process. 8)

Author:  Tethlis [ Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:45 am ]
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I find crossbowmen to particularly useful when fighting horde-type opponents (not opponents using the horde formation, but rather opponents who heavily you outnumber you with their combat blocks.) The shooting lets you put pressure on their most immediate threats, and then the crossbowmen are capable of handling a lot of basic opponents in combat once all those different regiments hit your lines. They can usually hold while your elite infantry or hydras get the killing done, and help to jam up all those enemy regiments.

Author:  Kadahn [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:56 am ]
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I tend to field a unit of 20 in 10x2 and dependant on my plan I have two tactics:
1) If I'm on the offensive them have them sitting on the flank to protect myself, and to ensure they have a decent field of fire, unobstructed by my advancing units. Great in a watchtower or sitting on an objective.

2)If playing defensively, I have them sit in the middle of my line between Warriors and Corsairs, ideally with a supporting unit behind them. Placed slightly forward of my line they present the enemy with a dilemma.

Do they ignore them and go for my other units who have support of their own? If they do then they leave an enemy on their flank who are harassing other units the whole while.

Do they charge them? If so then they have another dilemma: a charge in the front means they are facing up to 40 Stand and shoot bolts in the face and then up against a surprisingly effective combat unit. If they break them and pursue then the RXBs were far enough forward that the enemy pursuit is unlikely to take them past the LOS of the flanking units who can then counter charge them the following turn, possibly in the side. If he charges them in the flank then he is exposing his own flank to the supporting units.

I always take Lore of Shadow with my Sorceress, as I find its the most flexible lore in the book. It has the ability to slow your opponent and reduce their toughness, meaning they spend more time exposed to your shooting and making them more susceptible to it.

RXB are not solid enough to leave to themselves to do their thing, but in collaboration with other units they can be deadly. Sure, only making 5 kills from 40 shots isn't a huge amount, but that's a rank removed, meaning that unit is more vulnerable to your melee focussed troops.

Also, RXB will often be drawing blood from turn 1. It may not be a lot, but it can have a psychological impact and can make them seem like a bigger threat than they are. I play against WE & HE a lot and they both hate my RXB, even though they don't do a lot of damage. What they do is draw his attention.

Now this isn't sure hit tactic, few things are, but I've had reasonable experience with it, albeit against players of a similar (low) experience level to myself.

Summary: RXB may not be the best shooters in the book, nor the best combat unit, but I'll put my neck out there and say that they are the most flexible unit we have and can be very handy in an all comers list where you just don't know what you'll be facing.

Author:  [llct]kain [ Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:18 pm ]
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Summary: RXB may not be the best shooters in the book, nor the best combat unit, but I'll put my neck out there and say that they are the most flexible unit we have ...

That I would like to support. We are used to have nearly the best missle unit in the game. As the large target +1 gave them a real edge vs. big monsters and they would pack a lot of shoots in the frontage.
So in 8th some of their power is lost, that is the reason I think why lots of people are disappointed by them.

In the current envoirement they are not a unit to win the game - the are a piece of the puzzle that can work together. And they are flexible. Apart from the hard facts (good unit stats with hatred for some points):
- they "trim" units to a size which is ok for CC
- they deny a flank to light troops, e.g. enableing our own support units to work%roam in relative safety
- they can add a flank charge and remove the ranks
- they could be boosted by all 4 loores of magic. (Putting some wounds with +1wound and fire on an ancient treeman on the long range or hitting etherals with "magic" bolts while +1 to hit and -2AS ?)
- they affect the deployment of your enemy in a massive way (swordmaster on that flank ?)

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