50 Witch Elves

Elsu · Post by **Elsu** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:57 am

As you can see here:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0

50 Executioners are already discussed. I am planning to field 50 Witch Elves, at least 40.

I would support them with lore of shadow (lvl4 and lvl2), a CoB ofc.

Is a BSB a must? Maybe ASF? Hydra? Something else?

The banner of the unit with MR1? Banner of murder? Something else?

The Champion should be 'naked'?

Do i have to field them as a horde? Or 7 wide?

I would appreciate any advice or help!

Thanks in advance!

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:14 am

Well if you're going to run such a ridiculous unit then going further overboard isn't that much of a great deal anymore.

I would go:
BSB with ASF - so your unit gets reroll in every round of combat against I6 or lower targets.

Give her the -1 A and the -1 WS ability - in a vain attempt to keep her alive.

The champ should have witchbrew - to protect the unit a bit since it's such a huge inflexible unit.

Definitely horde - or else that defeats the purpose of such a huge scary unit.

Afterwards, just go to town.

Malus99 · Post by **Malus99** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:31 am

You will need plenty of protection for the unit or it will be shot to pieces, run some screen units infront of them, then put some magic items which give unit protection on a character in the unit, MR, Ironcurse Icon, that sort of thing which gives wards against ranged attacks.

I do agree with Meteor in that this will not be the most efficient and sensible unit, and it won't be very efficient, but if you want a doom unit of witch elves, you must protect them from ranged attacks or they will never even get to combat.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:13 pm

Unfortunately the only character that can join this unit is a Death Hag, which can only take khainite gifts, so he's going to have to rely on the 5+ ward from the CoB to protect them, it's the best that can be done.

I was going to suggest taking Dark Magic just for Chillwind and maybe Word of Pain if you're lucky, that way you have two spells capable of disabling enemy shooting. But I guess 2x Miasma on BS works as well.

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:23 pm

Actually I kind of disagree with the others, I think it can prove quite a nasty unit. (On the other hand, I'm one of those people painting up 40 Executioners!).

I'd say the following is enough:

40 WE's, FC (425 pts?)
CoB BSB (225)
Lvl 4 Sorc (~350)

What people will say is you're spending 1000 pts on this, but actually only the WEs are specific for your build. The Lvl 4 Sorc and CoB will probably be in your army anyway, so the WE just happens to be a good unit to support with those. In contrast to other death stars, the characters do not have to be in the unit either, which is all the better since you won't lose it all at the same time and the Sorc and CoB are just as effective in supporting other units in your army.

Definitely avoid any Death Hags in the unit, you're better off just getting more WE's or some supporting units. Possibly add Manbane to the Hag, but again you might actually be better of just having more Witch Elves.

I guess the CoB blessings are quite obvious, always use 5+ Ward unless you're up against something you really want to Killing Blow.

The tricky part with a unit like this is not getting attached. If your opponent focuses everything on killing the WE's then fine, he's actually shooting at one of the units with the cheapest cost per model in your army and they even have 5+ Ward from the CoB. You still have 2000 pts or so left in your army that he's not shooting at. Besides, if you're playing 8:th by the book, he has to kill all 40 models to earn a single VP.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:30 pm

Unfortunately the only character that can join this unit is a Death Hag, which can only take khainite gifts

Not quite true, assassins can be in the unit too.

The banner of the unit with MR1? Banner of murder? Something else

Banner of swiftness or banner of murder are both good choices. The former gets you into combat more quickly (reducing the time you need to spend exposed outside of combat) whereas the latter adds some much needed punchiness to the unit.

I am planning to field 50 Witch Elves, at least 40.

The real difficulty with this set up is that witch elves biggest selling point is their high number of attacks. Stepping up and horde formations only allow you 1 extra attack per model per extra rank that you can count, so even a horde unit of 40 witch elves, aligned as 4x10, would get just 20 more attacks (50 total) than a unit of 10 witch elves aligned as 1x10 (30 total).

The reason that horde units of executioners is being discussed is because the new ASL rules mean that you can expect the first rank or two of execs to get butchered in most combats, forcing you to rely on striking second with a large number of high WS, high S, killing blow attacks (only feasible by taking a large enough unit that can soak up the casualties and still have lots of models remaining) to win you combat. It's also being discussed because executioners have a single attack each, so each extra rank that gets to fight yields an additional 100% attacks, as opposed to the 33% of witch elves.

Personally, I think the idea is a bit of a no go. Not because witch elves die too easily (although that's true), but because you're really not getting the level of benefit from having the huge number of ranks that you need to make the points and risk worthwhile.

Have you considered some alternatives, such as running 3 units of 21 witch elves (7x3), or even 3 units of 7 witch elves (7x1)?

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:09 pm

It is a very true statement from Red in regards to the efficiency of this unit compared to Executioners running in the same format.

WE won't really need the extra bodies for step up, they'll most likely strike before enemies since they're I6.

However, 20 attacks is a significant difference, so it can't really be looked down upon, compared to 10 less GW marauder attacks. This big horde of WE has its own benefits, and can more than likely hold its own in combat, whereas splitting them up into multiple smaller units for more attacks means they actually need to rely on other supporting elements to pull them through. Unless you give them Mindrazor then that's another story.

As for my point about Death Hags, it is true Assassins can join the unit too, I forgot about that. But the message is you can't add any protective magical items to the unit.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:10 pm

It's worth taking the psychological effect into account too, not to mention whatever else is actually in the list besides Witch Elves and Cauldron/Sorcs to buff them. If you lay down a 50-point unit of Witch Elves, the opponent is either going to underestimate them because they don't realize how nice Witch Elves are in 8th edition, or they're going to avoid that unit like the plague and gun for everything else. Either way, those are strengths you can use to your advantage.

Also, Banner of Murder. Giving Armor Piercing to that storm of S3 and Poison hits is outstandingly good.

Anchanrogar · Post by **Anchanrogar** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:16 pm

I agree with Setomidor, make a 'death star' that doesnt look like or become a 'death star' unless you want it to, cover more of your battle line, have several medium sized units.

Also it should be pointed out that witch elves make excellent units for taking out death stars risking minimal points investment. Risk a 200 odd point unit (20), buff it, nuke the characters in the front of opposing super unit, waste a few ranks good to go, you might even win if they're strength 8, same theory with 40?

I wouldnt personally take 40 because of the frenzy overrun, which has in cost me my witches to a flank charge too many times already (oh no out of bsb range, out of generals range, looking the wrong way in a 10 wide formation)... 50 skaven slaves in the flank will still waste your unit.... and that will suck with 40 in way that you can casually dismiss with a unit of 20 that just earnt its points back 3 times over.

Rkhatzar · Post by **Rkhatzar** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:27 pm

maybe support it by 3/4/5 units of 5 WE - stubborn from COB and killy:P
Add some magic or COC or something good against armored targets, and voila:)

Guinea pig hydra · Post by **Guinea pig hydra** » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:32 pm

4 units of 10 would be better imo. I know you want a unique big scary un-hordish horde but for the reasons many have said above (mainly their extra attacks being wasted) I don't think it'd work as well as you hope on the table.

Elsu · Post by **Elsu** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:39 pm

Thanks a lot for your interesting opionions.

Considering the abouth mentioned statements, i have created a mix between one death star and a lot of msu witch elves.

Dreadlord, General, Soulrender, Ironcurse Icon, Seal of Ghrond, Armour of Darkness - 215 Pts.
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4, Sacrificial Dagger, Lore of Shadows - 285 Pts.

Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood, BSB - 225 Pts.

30 Dark Elf Warriors - 180 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen - 100 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen - 100 Pts.
10 Crossbowmen - 100 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.

40 Witch Elves, M, S, C, Banner of Murder - 450 Pts.
40 Witch Elves, M, S, C, Lichebone Pennant - 440 Pts.

War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Total: 2440

There are still points left. The warriors are between the witch elves, there behind is the CoB. The HB is cheap, he just spends moral 10.

What do you think?

Edit: i have to add, that here in germany, most of the tournaments are very restricted like max. 4 PD (including DE) for every spell, max. 1 hydra, et cetera..

A18no · Post by **A18no** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:47 pm

I really like the idea of 2 big unit of witches, I've made the math a lot of time, and they prove to be awesome... It's just that I only own 15.

With that set-up, I'd go with a second cauldron. REmove the dreadlord and take the cauldron. Make the sorceress the general in the Warriors unit with the +1ld banner.

You save 15pts on the dreadlord changed to a second cauldron, the 15pts is for the +1ld. Now your general is still a Ld10, you got 2 5+ ward that can boost each witches elves unit.

I prefer the banner of flame on the second unit. They can kill hydra, abo and can assault a building with a LOT of power.

With the spare point, their's many options:

- Murge 2 unit of crossbow. Having a 20 unit strong with full cmdt and shield is very strong for the Tower scenario or any objectives base scenario.
- Boost the warriors, make them at least 40 strong. You'll probably kill 10 or so with the dagger in the game, having the 30 strong for combat is a must.
- Or you could give shield to all crossbow, or RxB to riders.

For the topic, I think that 50 is too many. 40 is the best set-up for horde. You start loosing power at the 11 wounds, with lots of rank, they can dish lot of damage AND deny steadfast to many unit. If they can kill like 15 guys (it's not a lot, very easy), and you loose 5 or less, your opponent need to bring unit of 39 or more.. in steadfast formation. Against a unit with the same size as you, you can almost win by behing in horde.

People are afraid of horde, they don't want to test it. I've tested many, with many army. And found that the third rank can do a lot of damage, even against 5 wide unit. Sometime, the 1 more wounds with the thid rank can make the difference between Steadfast for ennemy or not, and that's the power of the horde!! Don't deny the steadfast, don't win by static resolution: KILL THEM!! Poeple are to shy to try that, and want to play it in the 7th minding, with static resolution, and pursue. GO FOR HORDES!!!