5/6 vanila COK - extinction. ;/

[Ichiyo1821]

My current set up is 11 COK FC with SoHG, RoH with my Dreadlord and they have massacred everything thrown at them. With Initiative 6, you practically have hatred every turn at a decent s4, against Lizardmen and Dwarves even the Cold Ones get rerolls! Recently I also combo it with Miasma from the Shadow lore and had great success with it along with Wither/RXB fire. Really with supporting attacks all around 5-6 Vanilla knights can still pack a punch and as usual you want your knights to hit his flanks but based on experience, they tend to lose steam after the first round of combat or after losing a few models. Ideally you want to get into combat in your second turn or better if you went second, on your first turn. With that being you said you want to punch through that target unit in one blow and this is where the additional s6 attacks help fielding a medium sized COK unit.

[Meteor]

@Truant:

2k is honestly too small imo. I attended a 2k pt tournament, and it's...too hard to play 2k. Waaaay too many restrictions based on the new % for unit choices now. Not easy to field a good solid list, and one bit of bad luck will ruin the game for you because every unit you take is very crucial when it's so small. Then Skaven warp lightning cannons will still be just as devastating, and these pie plate attacks will have a greater impact onto the game at smaller scales.

I also feel taking three units of vanilla knights might be too much. Reason being as you said, becomes too crowded. At 6 wide, that takes up a lot of space. You have way more movement options, but they're not as flexible as dark riders that can reform at will. But I absolutely agree it's very interesting Truant

[Strollinthewoods]

My predictions is that larger units of cav will turn out to be a failure.

Go with the cualdron and 2 units of 5 or posibly 6 instead

You can always combocharge for the same effect as 1 large unit with 3,2 formations, and you can do LOTS of things that 1 large unit is not suitable for.

[Iff]

Go with the cualdron and 2 units of 5 or posibly 6 instead

You can always combocharge for the same effect as 1 large unit with 3,2 formations, and you can do LOTS of things that 1 large unit is not suitable for.

That's not exactly true, the effect are a lot less for a combo-charge. Buffs from the Cauldron and any banner only work for one of your 5-man units. Furthermore, you don't get a rank. Finally, you run the risk that only one of your units doesn't make the charge (or fails stupidity), leaving the other unit very vulnerable in combat. And you might have to pay for two command groups, making it more expensive in points. There's a lot of drawbacks to 2 units, if you're going to use them in tandem anyway.

[Tethlis]

Lots of players have already played with one big COK unit, to great effect. I love mine; it's very effective against most of the natural unit choices that opponents are taking in 8th edition, and I prefer it to multiple smaller units for the reasons listed above. In addition, being more robust means that the unit rarely gives up many Victory Points. Similarly, if you're running your COKs with a Dreadlord, they can receive the full benefits of having him in the unit, including Stubborn or any other unit-buffing wargear you might be including.

[Strollinthewoods]

I wont say my way is the only way. But I know I wont "upgrade" to 1 single larger unit.

No use in having a cob, if your knight units already have a ranks worth of extra attacks.
They wont need it, and then what else in a list with such a unit can "warrant" the use of a cob... it costs many points and need units that "needs it" to be utilized in a good fashion.

Cob is a very safe place for your bsb, and In my book by far the best bsb choise.

So choosing between a large, or small units of cok, really is just the beginning of defining how you actually end up playing.

5cok with cualdron blessing COMBINED with almost anything is extremly deadly.

14 cok with hydrabanner or dreadlord combined with anything is OVERKILL, they dont need the support.


It is MUCH easier to play AGAINST such a unit, becouse its more predictable, you know were its going, and you can take meassures to avoid it.


I often charge a unit of cok into enemy units in order to kill heroes. They can put a serious dent in most heroes out there to say the least Most enemy units are now infantry of some kind, so although you might loose, you only risk 135 pts, and you get the benefit of fleeing with swiftstride.


My normal setup if there are some mages I really want to see dead, is 5 cok, followed by 5 witch elfs. Cok charge, and either sucseeds or fails, dont matter much, the we, just continue to march up, ans waits behind the cok. They dont panic, and they are almost asf with their I 6.


My coks my prefered tool for dealing with enemy chariots, monsters and the like.


Seriously the more I think about the 100 different uses you can put 5 cok with cualdron support to do, that they will do in an exelent fashion, the more I am sertian that they are what you will see in the future.

Larger units might seem to work now.. but as people find out that they really should have more support, your precious cok unit will find it harder to dictate the flow of the game, and get the carges it want.


I have since the start of 8ed talked about how good lvl 1 mages are. And I include as a minimum a lvl 1 metal mage in almost all my lists. If I want to max out on magic in a 12 max dice enviroment, I go for 2 lvl 1s, 1 with metal, the other fire.

If I see a large unit knights, thats easy wictory points ... almost every time. And as soon people start including a lvl 1 metal mage in their lists, they will find out so for themselves.


If you loose half your large knight unit, and you dont have a cob in your list. Well then you would be much better having lost 1 unit of knights, while having 1 left with the cob support.


Failing stupidity with a large uber unit, will almost always be a serious problem for your battleplans, and you will blame your loss on the most unfortunate failed stupidity test.
With smaller units, you are relying more on cob, and you give out your blessings after the stupidity checks. So you need to fail stupidity tests on both of your units before you are shitting in your pants.


Have fun with largish units of knights while it still works. Small units of cok is among the most amazing units with cob support in the game. Large unit of cok is just another unit you dont want to give the opurtunity to charge.



so to answer the thread starter, Yes I do use small 5/6 units of cok with cob support.

And they have never ever been as good as they are in the current edition.

If you cant make them work you are simply using them wrong. Plain and simple.


You need- Cob, and bsb for the reroll, and a dreadlord in the list is a huge benefit, so you get ld 10. With ld 10 and reroll you can almost ignore the fact that they are stupid.

They are now a 135 pts units that have 2 str 6 ws 5 attacks with hatred and str 4 steeds, with fear that has swiftstride.. .. they are to say the least awsome for theirs pts cost.

And remember the cost of the cob, is not acutally 225 pts.. its more acurate to remember it only cost 100 pts. You would want your bsb anyway, and you would probably want him to stay alive,.. If you could by them separate as 2 units I would guess most would join the bsb with the cualdron anyway if they could

[Tethlis]

No use in having a cob, if your knight units already have a ranks worth of extra attacks.
They wont need it, and then what else in a list with such a unit can "warrant" the use of a cob... it costs many points and need units that "needs it" to be utilized in a good fashion.

I don't understand your logic here. If you have 5 Cold One Knights with Cauldron, that's 10 S6 Attacks. If you have 10 Cold One Knights, 5x2, that's 15 Attacks... Meaning more focused hitting power across the same frontage. This is excellent when you're going up against enemy monsters, chariots, or units that are on a smaller base since to ensure you can cleanly kill the target.

14 cok with hydrabanner or dreadlord combined with anything is OVERKILL, they dont need the support.

I don't think many players are really advocating that you take that many. 10-12 Cold One Knights, maybe with a Dreadlord OR a BSB, with a Cauldron in the army, is more standard. I don't think anyone will argue that 14 COK with two characters and Cauldron is a pretty big point sink for most games. Most players who run a "big" unit are using between 10-12 models with one character and the Cauldron.

It is MUCH easier to play AGAINST such a unit, becouse its more predictable, you know were its going, and you can take meassures to avoid it.

But it's also much easier to kill/eradicate/tie down a 5-man unit of knights. You only have to inflict 2-3 casualties to make 5 Cold One Knights useless against anything but warmachines, skirmishers and fast cavalry. However, if a unit of 12 Knights takes 2-3 casualties, it still retains pretty much all its hitting power.

I often charge a unit of cok into enemy units in order to kill heroes. They can put a serious dent in most heroes out there to say the least Most enemy units are now infantry of some kind, so although you might loose, you only risk 135 pts, and you get the benefit of fleeing with swiftstride.

With a full-size unit of knights, you could charge in, kill the mage, kill a ton of rank-and-file, and potentially break the enemy unit.

That's what I like about the larger units, versus the smaller units. The larger units aren't just a one-use only trick that has to flee after killing a character, and they're not just good for getting some kills. A large unit can charge in, do heavy damage during the charge, and if the enemy holds due to Steadfast, the large unit can survive return attacks and have enough Strength 4 hits to probably break the enemy in the following turn. You can't get that with units of 5 knights.

Larger units might seem to work now.. but as people find out that they really should have more support, your precious cok unit will find it harder to dictate the flow of the game, and get the carges it want.

Support is good, I agree. However, you're talking about fielding two units of 5 Knights, and I'm talking about fielding one unit of 10. That's the same point cost (or slightly less, depending on command options) so theoretically they're both receiving the same number of support units?

Sure, if you invest a lot of characters in supporting a Cold One Unit, they get very expensive, but those characters also make it so the Cold One Knights require less support. A Stubborn Dreadlord can tie up/distract enemy characters or monsters, can allow the unit to hold in difficult fights, and the Hydra Banner lets the knights blast through most enemies (even Steadfast ones) in a single bone-crunching charge. Support units like chariots or Shades are less necessary if the Knight unit can deal with more threats on their own.

That being said, I do think there's a fine balance between support units, characters, and the size of the knight unit.

If I see a large unit knights, thats easy wictory points ... almost every time. And as soon people start including a lvl 1 metal mage in their lists, they will find out so for themselves.

If you loose half your large knight unit, and you dont have a cob in your list. Well then you would be much better having lost 1 unit of knights, while having 1 left with the cob support.

I don't quite understand the logic here. One of the great things about COK is that they're very resistant to most of the spells out there, since they have great base characteristics. They're vulnerable to Lore of Metal, but that's usually why I give mine the Cauldron Ward save against opponents with Lore of Metal, and they only have to survive 1 Turn or 2 Turns of magic missiles before they get into combat. Small units can be wiped out by Metal, and it's harder to protect them with the Cauldron Ward Save since your opponent can ignore the Cauldron-buffed knights and just target the other unit, wipe them out and get some Victory Points. If you focus your defense on one unit though, it can usually survive a few casualties but still fight with tremendous effectiveness.

Failing stupidity with a large uber unit, will almost always be a serious problem for your battleplans, and you will blame your loss on the most unfortunate failed stupidity test.
With smaller units, you are relying more on cob, and you give out your blessings after the stupidity checks. So you need to fail stupidity tests on both of your units before you are shitting in your pants.

I usually am okay taking my chances with re-rollable Leadership 10, and I have other units in my army besides my Cold One Knights. No matter what happens, Stupidity often ruins battle plans. Having multiple knight units can also mean that it's easier for them to get spread out, get in each others' way, get out of range of the BSB, etc. which increases the likelihood of failed Stupidity.

I do think your points about smaller COK units are good, and that they can provide advantages that you don't get from a bigger unit of Knights. However, I don't think they are necessarily BETTER, and I do think they have lots of disadvantages compared to a bigger unit.

[Phierlihy]

As always, Deathstar units usually win big or lose big. Now with the big spells they tend to lose big a little more often. Of course they're devestating - it's a Deathstar. Any unit worth that many points should be.