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What to do with those DAMNED core choices!?! 
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Dragon Lord
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Did you know that if corsairs don't have SSS, then warriors have the same amount of attacks for less points? ;)

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Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:44 pm
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Noble
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Quote:
Can they deal with them on their own?


17 SSS Corsairs against 28 orcs? Sure can. Generelly in the first round the corsairs will kill 7 and the orcs 4. In every round after that until the corsairs get down below 7, the orcs are going to lose 4 per turn and the corsairs 2 per turn. (which also means that the orcs need 2 ranks more to draw). My math is saying something like 3-5 corsairs remaining at the end if they get to fight it out.

Quote:
I'm not saying corsairs are a bad choice, they sure aren't... but you are presenting them in a light that would mislead other people as "the best core choice we have"

Which they're not.


Actually I think they are. Not because they are particulary good, but because Spearmen and RxBs just do not have the right flair in 8th. I loved them in 7th, but now the table has turned. RxBs shooting are wasted on the regiments out there, and with much longer charge distances shooting is sometimes nearly done by turn 2. Spearmen are too expensive to be throw away units, and too bad fighters to do rely on kills. Corsairs work more like our elite infantry: Kill alot with few models.

And to get back on subject, I am not a corsair lover. I am just extremely disappointed with RxBs and warriors in 8th edition, which leaves me with corsairs to fill the core. Problem is: You can only have ONE unit with SSS.

It may be me playing it wrong, but warriors and rxbs do not seem to have any impact on O&G, dwarves and wood elves, who are my regular opponents. They just get killed in close combat or get trashed by warmachines or spells. SSS Corsairs on the other half remain a SERIOUS threat to the opponent even if reduced to 7 models. That is just awesome!

I mean: 7 SSS corsairs get 21 attacks. RxBs and spears get around half that armount no matter how big you make them!


Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:57 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
I've done an Excel document that can calculate the normal outcome of any fight (only one round though).


That's your first mistake right there. Mathhammer is all well and good, but I've noticed from several previous posts by people abouti these kind of simulations that:

1 - they often get their programming wrong, and so reach erroneous conclusions.
2 - they exclude important factors like "what happens if you don't roll averages" and combi charges etc
3 - they suggest a science to the game that doesn't exactly exist.. nothing wrong with this, to a point. Problem is, people who use simulations often tend to get too attached to the outcomes and stop thinking creatively about other factors



As to the corsair vs warriors debate. This has been thorough thrashed out before. All in all, corsairs are very good all rounders, but warriors are slightly cheaper. It depends on what role you want your troops to fill. But to some extent this is not so much like comparing apples and oranges, but more like comparing oranges and tangerines - there's not a huge difference between them and they are both good.

Corsairs with SSS are slightly more offensive and immune to missile damage (frenzy = +1 attack for the front row and ITP and 4+ save versus missiles), whereas warriors are a bit more of an anvil (+1 rank vs charging troops, and cheaper so you can buy bigger blocks, although only a 5+ save). But we're not talking about a huge difference really. Just pick one and get on with it :)

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Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:33 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:18 pm
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
I've done an Excel document that can calculate the normal outcome of any fight (only one round though).


That's your first mistake right there. Mathhammer is all well and good, but I've noticed from several previous posts by people abouti these kind of simulations that:

1 - they often get their programming wrong, and so reach erroneous conclusions.
2 - they exclude important factors like "what happens if you don't roll averages" and combi charges etc
3 - they suggest a science to the game that doesn't exactly exist.. nothing wrong with this, to a point. Problem is, people who use simulations often tend to get too attached to the outcomes and stop thinking creatively about other factors


1- Tell me how to post my doc on the net, and you'll be able to see if my progamming are well done, and I'm pretty sure it is.
2- The more you throw dice, the more you'll be close to the average. 8th have done that to the game. In 7th, battling 5 guys against 5, with 5 dices throw each turn could not be mathed (???) correctly. But since we are now throwing 50 dices some time, statistic has become more reliable.

Combi charge can be done by you AND by you opponent, but I have a question for you: If you make a well played combi charge, do you really think that the unit involved matters?? After all, If I bring 1000pts in 2 units againt your 500 solo unit, I don't need math to see that i'll win.

3- You're right, but the math are there to prove and help you choose before combat. Excel document will never play the game in your place.


Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:01 pm
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Corsair
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Auere wrote:
RxBs shooting are wasted on the regiments out there, and with much longer charge distances shooting is sometimes nearly done by turn 2. Spearmen are too expensive to be throw away units, and too bad fighters to do rely on kills. Corsairs work more like our elite infantry: Kill alot with few models.(...) Problem is: You can only have ONE unit with SSS.

It may be me playing it wrong, but warriors and rxbs do not seem to have any impact on O&G, dwarves and wood elves, who are my regular opponents. They just get killed in close combat or get trashed by warmachines or spells.
To go back to the original question ("My SSS Corsairs cost 210 points. What to do with the remaining 290 points?") it seems that your opponents are rather shooty: O&G with the incredibly cheap goblin's warmachines, dwarves with their excellent warmachines, woodies with the best BS shooting in the game.
Soon, when you meet the opponent, you face very sturdy troops: Orcs, dwarves, treekins.
I understand better how your core troops seem to underperform under these conditions.

The way to solve the problem is to read again the question: What to do with the remaining 290 points?
You need to understand that the answer is not going to be as effective as SSS corsairs. Just pick up what is the least ineffective.

- If spearmen did not work so far, how about a larger spearmen unit? For 290pts, you could get... 37 of them! (assuming Ld banner). There you have an anvil.
- If only corsairs work for you, how about... more corsairs? A second unit of 24 corsairs could be handy. Initially, the opponent cannot guess who has the SSS, not until you test for frenzy or don't test for panic.
- What about a horde of 30 RHB corsairs? As sturdy as regular corsairs, and their S&S will be deadly against your usual opponents.
- If RXBmen are flatted out by warmachines, then a long line of RXBmen will be less vulnerable. And we're talking about 25 RXBmen.
- 14 shielded DR start to become a real threat.

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Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:29 pm
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Noble
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Thanks Calisson for some good points!

- I tried 30-40 spearmen with BoM or BoD before, but they are always reduced to ineffectiveness before they get into combat.
- I have been trying additional units of 12 corsairs, and it worked alright. The took care of come waywatchers. But taken into consideration that I am sitting on 45 warrior models, 30 RxB models, 10 DR and NO real corsair models (I am using early edition plastic sword elves), I think I ought to attempt finding configurations using some of the other core models aswell.
- I have seriously considered going horde with my corsairs. 50 attacks sounds nice! But I just dont think that it is the best way to use them, and I fear dwellers below!
- I have tried 25+ RxBs including guiding eye and they did like 6 wounds over the course of a battle before finally succumbing to dwellers below and a treeman. If you are shooting at dryads, treekin or treeman you are doing no damage. If you are shooting at dwarves you are doing next to no damage. If you are shooting at orcs or goblins, it just doesnt make a difference!
- Shielded DR? Never considered them. Have you tested them Calisson? They look... uhm... pretty expensive for what they do...?


Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Is the original poster expecting our Core to walk all over the opposition? I'm a bit confused here, because I don't really see our Core as being expected to do anything other than die, or at least handle/defeat other similarly-priced Core choices while our actual offensive units get the killing done. The probability comparisons of different units is great and all, but I feel that we don't need the probability to have a good sense of what our Core are capable of. If you set realistic goals for your COre, while putting the rest of your army to good use, you'll be satisfied with their performance and they'll help further your overall battle plan. If you're expecting your Core to walk across the elite units of all other races, or gun down everything that comes close with reckless abandon, then you should adjust your perception as well as your playstyle and set more reasonable goals.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:57 am
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I may have a new favorite unit. I fielded 30 in a 10 x 3 formation of Corsairs with Handbows and the Sea Serpent Standard and loved the versatility! I got charged, performed a Stand and Shoot reaction of 40 shots and kill 3 Chaos Warriors. And he failed the charge. I moved into range and shot again killing 3 more Chaos Warriors. Enemy charges again and I kill 2 Chaos Warriors. In combat he kills 5 Corsairs. Aided by the Cauldron of Blood for killing Blow the Corsairs kill 5 Chaos Warriors, win combat, and run the Chaos Warriors down thanks to the Slavers rule.

Same unit versus Skaven. Charged by Giant Rats who paniced from the Stand & Shoot. Charged the flank of Clanrat unit to save a block of Spearmen. Broke the Clanrats & ran them down, stopped 1" away from the Furnace on the over-run, and shot the Grey Seer off of it on my next turn!

I've found this to be an AMAZING place to have a character who is holding the Guiding Eye. It scares the pants off people and they become far to terrified to charge it once they see what it can do.


Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:10 am
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Dragon Lord
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Get repeater crossbowmen...

20 today panic a unit of terradon riders off the table, charged and killed unit of 10 skinks, which allowed them to reform into ranks and rear charge 20 saurus (who were fighting unkillable dreadlord from the front), breaking them.

If you insist on deciding on unit's effectiveness in one on one matchups you will never get anywhere.

Could corsairs get the same results? No, they wouldn't shoot terradons so they would have to charge them, which would carry them into skinks... and the fight would continue next turn. And 17 corsairs have little chance against 20 saurus warriors with spears.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:47 am
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Beastmaster
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[quote="Auere"]
- I tried 30-40 spearmen with BoM or BoD before, but they are always reduced to ineffectiveness before they get into combat.[/quote]

Have you thought about that would be 15-20 spearmen (15*7 6+1 for shield) and if they wasn't there, what to shoot at? our elite (BG 15*13 = 195 point)... but because there is so many in it, our opponent fear it and has to deal with it.. and instead leaves our just as vulnerable elite units alone so they can get somewhat unhurt into combat...

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:13 am
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