|What to do with those DAMNED core choices!?!
|Page 1 of 2|
|Author:||Auere [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:42 am ]|
|Post subject:||What to do with those DAMNED core choices!?!|
I had another game last night. Since spearmen never do ANYTHING for me other than die, I decided to option for a more shooting heavy list, using RxBs to fill out the core percentage along with my mandatory 17 SSS corsairs.
I had included a fair amount of shooting for a 2000p list: 12 shades + rending star assassin and 27 RxBs joined by a supreme sorceress with lifetaker, sacrificial dagger and guiding eye - with the lore of shadow!
I looked much forward to seeing how so much shooting fared with the lore of shadow - a combination which everyone seems to like.
...everyone except me at least. My collaborate shooting only managed to do around 10 wounds in 6 turns of combat!
Okay, so I did not even roll the withering. I rolled 1,2,5 and 6 for spells. But even if I had rolled it, would it had helped? It is a very tough spell to cast, and both my opponents magic defences were more than sufficient to stop an important spell like that, which would leave me with what to cast afterwards?
Miasma? Doesnt help shooting. People would just let it go and suffer the slight reduce to BS or whatever.
Mindrazor or enfeebling foe? Doesnt help shooting. So to put any magical pressure on an opponent I would have to have a good unit in combat and at the same time have a good viable target for my rxbs. That does not seem to happen to often.
Pendulum or pit of shades? Pendulum is a weak spell, and pit of shades just scatters of period. None of these spells put any real pressure on the opponent.
I do not get how people can get their shooting to pay back anywhere close to the points invested, and I CERTAINLY do not see why lore of shadows is particulary good. Mindrazor is great ofcourse - but apart from that...?
The withering is cast on 16+ at good range. Soulblight is equally good and is cast on 9+.
Back on track:
Spearmen die in droves to templates and mass killing spells, and once they are down to 15-20 they cant even beat goblins in close combat.
Repeater Crossbows do next to nothing with their shooting, and in close combat they are good, but could never be worth their points.
So how on earth do I fill out more core percentage with something that is actually doing something??
My SSS Corsairs deliver every time. They cost 210 points.
What to do with the remaining 290 points? Any suggestions?
|Author:||Kaleth eissplitter [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:52 am ]|
Well I have a different opinion about RXB. I run a unit of 20 in every game and give them shields. I agree, that sometimes they don't hit anything, but most of my opponents simply are afraid of 40 armorpiercing bolts!
If you don't like to use RXb, that you could enlarge your unit of corsairs. I have a unit of 28, full command, 7x4 and SSS. They never failed except against a charge of 8 oger-bulls plus tyrant!
Ever thought about dark riders? They are still a very annoying and fun unit, because they are fast, agile, great warmachine hunters and have the option to take RXBs. I never leave the house with at least 1 unit. They never disappointed me!!!
|Author:||Kadahn [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:28 am ]|
RXB won't last any longer against templates or mass damage spells than Spearmen will, and each one lost costs a lot more.
While the other spells in Shadow aren't as complimentary to shooting as Withering, they do still have their uses.
Miasma Can slow an enemy unit down, giving you another turn or so of shooting before they reach you. Can also reduce their BS meaning you are less vulnerable to return fire. Reduced WS can also make him less keen to get the unit into close combat, meaning they are left unengaged where you can shoot them some more.
Mindrazor Won't improve your shooting, but again, no unit wants to get into combat with 20 WS 4, I 5, Str 8 soldiers who will also shoot them in the face as they charge. The longer they hold off their charge, the more time you have to shoot them.
Enfeebling Foe Once again, a deterrent against combat. A general does not want to throw his unit in against a foe when their own strength is so low and damage is reduced.
Pendulum/Pit of Shades While they won't boost any of your BS shooting, they are effectively magical artillery so could be considered shooting spells themselves. When combined with Miasma they can be awesome, especially against large or densely packed units which is where we would struggle more with BS shooting. Miasma can reduce their Initiative, making them more susceptible to the spells. It can also help to keep them at bay, meaning more chances to get the spells off.
I only run a fairly small unit of RXB - 15 of them, and some shades. I don't expect them to kill a whole heap, but they can thin out the ranks making it easier for my Spearmen to resist them or my Cold One Hammer to break them.
If your Spearmen are being targeted a lot by mass damage spells and artillery then these should be the primary targets for your shades and assassin. A Pegasus mounted Ring of Hotek bearer can also make your opponent nervous about investing the amount of dice needed to pull off mass damage spells.
You didn't mention what size games you play or how big the Warrior unit is, and I think this would have an impact. I find that 30 is a good efficent size at 2000 points. More than this and you have too many points invested in a unit which is there to take hits. Less than this and they are too easy to break.
All of this is my own opinion of course, and will depend on who you are facing, terrain etc.
|Author:||Red... [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:52 am ]|
15 dark riders with full command. Put it on one of your flanks and use it in combi charges with CoKs (CoKs in the front, dark riders in the flank or rear to disrupt). It may get shot at on it's first turn, but by turn two it should be in combat so will be at far lower risk. It also makes your opponent's eye water when he sees a 3 ranked formation of dark elf cavalry, with van guard and 9" move on his flank...
Ummm, yeah he did. Twice. Once at the start of his post ("I had included a fair amount of shooting for a 2000p list") and once at the end ("My SSS Corsairs deliver every time. They cost 210 points. What to do with the remaining 290 points?" (500x4 = 2000)).
|Author:||Malus99 [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:35 am ]|
My core set up is generally in a ratio of: 4 spearmen:4/2 RXBs:4/2 corsairs:1-.5 DR. so in big games I have 40:40:20-40:10. In smaller games I tend to halve the number of crossbowmen and DR, a unit of 30-40 spearmen is pretty much mandatory in my lists because it only costs a base 240 which means that even if it gets shot to pieces, that is damage not hitting my more important and more expensive units. Spearmen are the only big (25-40) units I take so I think it is always good to have some cheap ranks. DR are good for filling out core choices if you don't like spearmen, but I suggest if RXBs and spearmen are not working for you, get some more corsairs, I think the corsairs are excellent, the more the merrier. Generally I take most, if not all of our core choices in my armies as I can usually find a use for all of them, but some excell where others don't, infantry core are good against the enemy footsloggers of T3 and mediocre save, where as DR fare better against less numerous, but tougher foes, for example, ogres.
Half the spells in shadow will give spearmen a boost, as can the CoB, the only way they will kill anything is with buffs, I find the problem is that other units need those buffs more than I can't get those buffs through.
|Author:||Darktan [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:47 pm ]|
Expand your SSS Corsairs then - to about 20ish (21?) get some form of caster bodyguard/daggerfodder be it RxB or spears, and 5 RxB DR.
SSS Corsairs, as you said (and in my experiance as well) regularly do equal to, or better than i want from them. A caster nearly always wants a bodyguard, and i prefer bodyguards/daggerfodder that can participate more so RxB, but spearmen would be useful if i were to use a shorter ranged lore / needed more to dagger.
And Fast cav is always useful, even if only to take a charge from somone so that the opponents unit is now in charge range of one of your units.
|Author:||Nellamik [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:03 pm ]|
Red have you tried this. I was thinking about using 10 with a noble or Dreadlord with the ring of darkness.
|Author:||Kadahn [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:58 pm ]|
D'oh! So he did, my bad.
|Author:||Anchanrogar [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:24 pm ]|
If you really want to design your army around shooting with RxBs, take a lvl 4 with the tome of furion and lore of shadow 99% chance, or something silly that you'll get the withering (doubles choose etc with 5 spells), boring magic phase as you pile every dice into you get into the withering every turn though...
Sounds like you're just getting mauled by war machines though, lore of fire, flaming swords of ruin and 3 units of shades (6-8 stong) wound war machines on 5+ with RxBs = tonnes of dead war machines
Make the machines shoot the shades, send in the blocks unhurt
|Author:||Red... [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:03 pm ]|
Yeah. I used it a lot in 7th ed with unbounded success.
In 8th it is a bit more tricky: it hits harder (second row of S4 hatred attacks on the charge is nice), but is far more vulnerable to missile fire, magic and - in particular - template weapons. You need to get in quick and fast and not dither in the open.
It's a difficult decision as to whether to run it with a character or not. In 7th, I usually ran it with a master on dark steed as BSB with hydra banner. But now in 8th, that setup is more flawed: you lose fast cavalry (and vanguard) if you put a character in the unit and your BSB ends up on the flank, far away from where he's really needed in the centre.
IMO it's better to run it without a character: vanguard helps you get to where you need to be quicker and with less risk from missile fire (even though you can't charge on turn 1 if you use vanguard, you can get out of the way of his missile troops much better).
I've had mixed success with it, but overall it remains a good unit and I will definitely continue to field it. But don't be suprised if every now and then an empire mortar manages to nuke it in a single turn. But then that's 8th edition in a nutshell isn't it? Everything hits harder, but is far more vulnerable than before.
|Author:||Rabidnid [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:46 am ]|
|Post subject:||Re: What to do with those DAMNED core choices!?!|
Well corsairs do nothing that spears or RXB can't do so its obviously your fault that they are failing Spears have the same number of attacks, the same save in melee and are free to take a banner as their attacks come from their numbers, not frenzy.
RXB will destroy light cav and most fliers, can thin out larger blocks of infantry and can shoot up annoying units like spawn or giants.
My advice: ditch the corsairs and shades for a game and see what happens when you actually put some thought into the use of your spears and RXB.
|Author:||Olderplayer [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:33 am ]|
If you don't like shadow, try Metal. It has a really good anti-horde spell and two good augments. Of course, two of the spells require that the enemy have armoured units but I've found it to be useful with the +1 to hit and AP augment and the 5+ scaly skin AS boost to keep a key unit alive.
Unfortunately, two of the best potential lores to solve our DE core issues (low T and S and limited AS) are beast and life and both are not available.
Also, while agree that our core a "squishy" and not the best core out there for 8th edition, one decent unit of spearmen for the dagger is not too bad. I find that one unit of dark riders is needed for a variety of reasons (vanguard move, war mahcine hunting, dealing with light cav and mobile shooting and distraction). My RXB (with shields an music) often pay for themselves if porperly deployed and supported. The key is to have a cominbation of threats and ways to deal with various enemy units and threats. I'm finding that I need hydras and run a decent unit of COK and a cauldron to be competitive and often dropping black guard, no witches or execs. Finally, DE armies need a very good dreadlord (try whip of agony, Cold one mount with BSB in range, and pendant for 1+ AS) and a well-protected lvl 4 and that means DE armies need to play at 2500 points to be fully competitive. But when played right, I'm winning a decent share in very competitive environments. The only army I'm having trouble with is Lizardmen (running a special master on a drark steed with nring of hotek that is initially in a COK or dark rider unit to at least put the Slann at risk). (Sorry about the typing!)
|Author:||Auere [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:05 am ]|
Thanks for all the advices. Ill try a few of them!
This misses the point. The difference between corsairs, spears and rxbs is EVERYTHING.
SSS corsairs need 7 models to do 21 attacks, which means that the enemy will have to bring the unit to below 7 models to seriously hamper its ability in combat. In addition corsairs are much harder to kill with shooting thanks to their increased armour save against such attacks and their smaller unit size, so usually template weapons and mass killing spells are vasted against them. SSS corsairs also do not panic.
I usually bring a unit of 17 SSS Corsairs in ranks of 7 (210 points). They kill their points back and usually survive the combat with 3-5 models left.
Spearmen need 15 models to get 10 attacks on the charge / 15 attacks on defence. All it takes is one stone or mass spell to bring the unit below 15 guys. Once they are down, they kill next to nothing, and for every model lost it gets even worse. Usually when a warrior unit is reduced to below 15 it ceases to be effective, and is unable to fill any roles I need them to in the late game. They are a good shooting magnet however - and cheap!
RxBs do some damage against certain opponents with their shooting, but not my regular opponents. They are very easy to force modifiers on, making them hit on 6s - hence doing nearly no damage. In close combat they are pretty good defensively, but require 10 guys to make 10 attacks = worthless offence. They require good numbers to win combats on SCR and defence, which is VERY expensive at 11 points per guy.
|Author:||Rabidnid [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:24 pm ]|
Try comparing units of the same size. 25 spears with the banner of disciple or 18 RXB with a muso are going to be as effective as your precious corsairs. I stopped running them because they are a waste of points for what they do. Spears add bulk and ranks, while RXB add shooting. Corsairs aren't as useful as witches, which are cheaper anyway. I take more shooting and magic than most armies so my guys tend not to suffer much in that regard. The only advantage of SSS corsairs is that they are fearless. I save witches for that role and use spears and RXB to control the rest of the enemy army.
|Author:||Calisson [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:11 pm ]|
Taking a broad view, I believe that DE core choice trigger more envy than pity from our foes.
- spearmen are very cheap for troops with such fighting abilities. You are never wrong when taking masses of them. Many people take them as sorceress babysitter/dagger fuel. In addition, they can get a 25pts banner, which is handy!
- SSS AHW corsairs make one of the most impressive fighting core unit in WHFB. Too bad we get only 1 SSS. They fulfill a similar role as WE, with some plusses (save, core) and minusses (require SSS, no stubborn, no poison). Without SSS, they are more questionable but still are playable.
- RHB corsairs are probably now the most difficult core unit to use: their shooting is no more useful than anybody else, their fighting ability remains mediocre, only the ability to S&S in two ranks improved them. I'm still trying to understand what they can do better than anyone else. Possibly a mere cover for elite troops, for 105 core pts?
- RXBmen are rightly considered one of the best shooters in WHFB. It's just that BS shooting, nowadays, is much less useful as it used to be, with the 8th ed trend for huge blocks of troops who can absorb it, with T10 warmachines which can resist it, and with the near disappearance of light units. Still, the ability to get rid of small units is nice, the fact that you face none shows that this ability is feared.
- DR are another top class troop: who else can take core light cavalry able to march and shoot twice at 24"? However, just as other BS shooters, they are less useful than in 7th ed. As they are the most expensive core troop per wound, they have a tendency to get a shining target on their heads.
- Shielded DR are hardly ever seen. Theoretically, in large enough numbers (15+), they should provide a high threat for the opponent. However, they are still quite fragile, and the opponent is likely to be steadfast.
So my point is that nearly all our core troops are excellent, for core troops.
Like any other core troop, they are not able to withstand heavy template fire, elite troops, fierce monsters.
|Author:||A18no [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:16 pm ]|
I'm with Auere here. I've done an Excel document that can calculate the normal outcome of any fight (only one round though).
I was in the side of warriors before that. Like you Rabidnid, the evidence prove that warriors are better: cheaper, can bring more troop and still retain the same attacks potential. But some think come to mind after all my analysis:
- Corsair SSS are imune to psychology. They don't need a character for that. To me, it's very strong.
- Like Auere said, corsair keep their strenght at low level, so the difference in points is low. Exemple:
30 SSS Corsair, cause I ALWAYS play horde now, having the third rank to fight is stronger than you think and you should really start to test it. Even facing a 5 wide unit, you're better in hord e(providing you get 30 or more guys, It's why I field unit of 30 now). With full cmdt you can field 40 warriors for the same cost.
When charged Corsair have 51 attacks before taking wounds
When charged Warriors have 41 attacks before taking wounds
If they charge Corsair have 51 attacks
If they charge warrior have 31 attacks
Corsaire have better chance to survive t'ill the fight, with better armor against shooting. They got 33% better armor against shooting, so behing 33% les make no difference before combat.
They will not flee in case of a bad panic test!.
One thing to remember: if you kill enough they won't be steadfast!! Don't try to bring more rank, don't play the defensive mode (ward with cauldron, 5 wide unit, etc.), play the druchii way ATTACKS AND KILL!! You'll find that our army is very strong to do that.
Conclusion: corsair are there for the fight, warriors are there for dagger usage.
For black guard, it's my only full painted unit in my collection... and they stay on the shelves. 20 black guard can let you take 26 witches, or 22 executionner. And worse of all: they can't be more than 20 even if you wanted to. If they could have been 30, I would have taken them anytime, but since 20 is the max, I don'T play them. Playing horde is loving hordes!
|Author:||Rabidnid [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:49 pm ]|
I have 50 witches, 50 RXB and 30 spears. The spears fill a particular role. 6 deep they nullify the other sides steadfast while the witches rip them to bits.
I've painted some new units, like a CoC and CO master, so I'm using them at the moment, but I will return to a mostly witch lists in the future.
|Author:||Auere [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:48 pm ]|
Great, if you want maths:
17 Corsairs (ranks of 7, st, ms, SSS) get charged by 20 Orcs (st, ms, add. choppa) after taking a direct hit from a rock lobba (3 casualties).
First round of combat: Corsairs do 7 wounds, Orcs do 4 wounds = Corsairs win by 1 but orcs are steadfast.
Second round of combat: Corsairs do 4 wounds, Orcs do 2 wounds = Corsairs win by 2 and orcs are not steadfast.
Third round of combat: Corsairs do 4 wounds, Orcs do 2 wounds = Corsairs win by 2 and orcs are not steadfast.
Fourth round of combat: Corsairs do 4 wounds, Orcs are down to one man = Corsairs win by 6 and orcs are not steadfast.
Fifth round of combat: Corsairs wipe out the last orc.
Result = Corsairs beat the orcs with 6 man remaining.
26 Spearmen (ranks of 5, shields, st, ms, BoDicipline) get charged by 20 Orcs (st, ms, add. choppa) after taking a direct hit from a rock lobba (7 casualties).
First round of combat: Spears do 4 wounds, Orcs do 4 wounds = Orcs win by 1 and spears are not steadfast.
Second round of combat: Spears do 3 wounds, Orcs do 3 wounds = Draw
Third round of combat: Spears do 2 wounds, Orcs do 3 wounds = Orcs win by 2 and spears are not steadfast.
Fourth round of combat: Spears do 1 wound, Orcs do 3 wounds = Orcs win by 3 and spears are not steadfast.
Fifth round of combat: Spears do 1 wound, Orcs do 3 wounds = Orcs win by 3 and spears are not steadfast.
Sixth round of combat: Orcs wipe out the remaining spears.
Result = Orcs beat spears with 9 man remaining.
18 RxBs (ranks of 9, shields, st, ms) get charged by 20 Orcs (st, ms, add. choppa) after taking a direct hit from a rock lobba (3 casualties). They get to shoot at the orcs once at long range and a stand and shoot at long range (total 5 casualties done to the orcs)
First round of combat: RxBs do 3 wounds, Orcs do 3 wounds = Orcs win by 1 and RxBs are not steadfast. RxBs combat reform to ranks of 5.
Second round of combat: RxBs do 2 wounds, Orcs do 3 wounds = Orcs win by 2 and RxBs are not steadfast.
Third round of combat: RxBs do 2 wounds, Orcs do 2 wounds = Draw
Fourth round of combat: RxBs do 1 wound, Orcs do 2 wounds = Orcs win by 1 and RxBs are not steadfast.
Fifth round of combat: RxBs do 1 wound, Orcs do 2 wounds = Orcs win by 1 and RxBs are not steadfast.
Sixth round of combat: RxBs do 1 wound, Orcs do 2 wounds = Orcs win by 1 and RxBs are not steadfast.
Seventh round of combat: Orcs wipe out the remaining RxB.
Result = Orcs beat RxBs with 5 man remaining.
Comment: Because all the three units have S3 and the same AS in close combat, it is not neccesary to mathhammer against different opponents. Only the 6+ ward on the RxBs would make them look relatively (but marginally) better against high strength opponents.
- Corsairs are much better than spearmen and RxBs in close combat - consistantly winning their combats against opponents, even if outnumbered or damaged.
- Spearmen take heavy casualties from templates and mass killing spells, which doesnt combine well with the fact that they need numbers to be effective.
- RxBs ranged damage do not make up for the fact that they are expensive medicore close combat units. Their ward save makes them very hard to get rid of though...
|Author:||Dalamar [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:25 pm ]|
And in the meantime the orcs were so focused on reaching the crossbowmen that they didn't notice the hydra slamming into their flank.
Sorry but 1 on 1 matchups just don't work in warhammer.
|Author:||Getwisteerd [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:26 pm ]|
This is quite wrong, as they have different numbers of attacks and wounds. Try putting them against chaos knights, you'll see what I mean.
Also, you added a sneaky rock lobba hit, which would off course have been aimed at my black guard/executioners. If my opponents are aiming their ranged weapons at my 7 point spearmen, I'm not really going to complain .
|Author:||Garbidge [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:46 pm ]|
Unless you are very unlucky with animosity and charge rolls you get at least a round of long range shots, a round of shots where you move into short range and then stand and shoot at short range, and you probably won't need to move for the second round of shots. This is likely to do 10 kills on the orcs, making the following combat much easier.
Also, as Dalamar says, one on one isn't everything. In the first round of combat, you lose 40 points of corsairs, compared to 33 of rxbs or 28 of spears. And that first round is all that it takes for your flanker of choice (dark riders, chariot, hydra, 5 witch elves) to break the orcs in the second round.
|Author:||Auere [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:50 pm ]|
I never suggested they would. I am just trying to show that corsairs are more efficient fighters for their points than warriors or RxBs. I cannot see what a flanking hydra has to do with that...
I could do that, but the corsairs would still kill relatively more chaos knights (even though it would be a difference between 0 and 1). All three units would get crushed in seconds, so I cannot see what the matchup should prove. Other than maybe the most nummerous unit would hold on 2 turns instead of one, which you are right could easily be the warriors (if they had not been hit by shooting or magic).
I find that spearmen because of their 5 wide formation and huge numbers make the perfect targets for mass killing spells and template weapons. My dwarf and O&G know that just one or two hits on the spearmen will put them out of the game. Those S4 grudge throwers normally kill 15 spearmen per shot. That is well worth a shot compared to killing maybe 6 black guard in a small unit. I have tried 30-40 spearmen with banner of murder/war banner so many times, and all I can say is:
Dwellers Below, rock lobbas, grudge throwers, salamanders.
I never got them into combat before they were down to below 20 man. And lets us face it - a spearmen unit with less than 20 man will die to anyone who can lift a weapon!
On the other hand, even 7 SSS corsairs can sometimes do astounding damage even before you get to hit at them!
|Author:||Auere [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:03 pm ]|
But both spears and RxBs actually lose their first round and are not steadfast, meaning that they could easily break. The corsairs on the other hand, do not need help the slightest to deal with 20 orcs, and your hydra or whatever can be assigned elsewhere.
It seems to me that you are trying to argue that because the spearmen and RxBs would be supported, they are no worse than corsairs?
I dont really think the corsairs care for support. They just tell the hydra: "Go over there and beat up something else! We got this covered..."
What is best? A unit that can actually win fights or a unit that requires help to win fights? I am not saying that warhammer is about one-on-one, but simply realising that it isnt doesnt quite work in the favor of spearmen or RxBs.
And what is the point of RxBs shooting, if the corsairs just charge in and beat things up anyway? Dark Elves just cant win by shooting! I have NEVER experienced that RxBs first couple of rounds of shooting actually made the difference between winning or loosing close combats, so I have more or less decided just to give up on them. (unless any of you can convince me otherwise )
Close combat is where the game is won. Some factions have the nasty warmachines to do a difference with shooting, but for dark elves it all comes down to magic and close combat. And considering SSS corsairs extra nastyness in combination with cauldron and magic, they just must be considered more fit for a dark elf army than the other core choices.
|Author:||Dalamar [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:23 pm ]|
So why are you putting down a unit of 20 orcs? If I was playing orcs they would be running in units of at least 30
Same amount of points as your corsairs even, that's 28 orcs, not 20.
Can they deal with them on their own?
I'm not saying corsairs are a bad choice, they sure aren't... but you are presenting them in a light that would mislead other people as "the best core choice we have"
Which they're not.
|Author:||A18no [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:29 pm ]|
If you are searching for a combat oriented core unit, yes corsair are the best core we have.
If you are searching for a big and cheap unit for steadfast, dagger fodder, or rank, yes warriors are the best core we have.
If you are searching for an all-rounder unit, yes RxB with shield are the best core we have.
Couple them with Cauldron and you get better resilience (ward), better offensive (+1 attacks) or more all-rounder (killing blow)
|Page 1 of 2||All times are UTC|
|Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group