4 months and 20 games later, my COK rock with 8th!
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Author:  Babnik [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  4 months and 20 games later, my COK rock with 8th!

Dear Druchii fellows,

I have already shared with you in the past my thoughts about CO stupidity new rules.
It brings ITP and is not longer a huge threat since we can reroll with the BSB.
Since that new rule, my sorceress does not leave her temple without her reptilean ride. And I always bring my large unit of COK.

I was use to field unit of 5-6 COK in 7th but their input in the battle, yet substantial, was not decisive.

Today, I play 12-14 Knights, with ring of Hotek and ASF banner. Sometimes, at 3000 pts, I add a BSB with hydra banner.

- Ring of Hotek: Bring the close combat in the heart of opponent's army! His mages will have to make risky moves to get out of the 12" deadly bubble.
- ASF: Reroll for the knights at each turn against 99% of units. The CO reroll against VC, lizzies and dwarves. Shadow lore spell can help CO to reroll against lot more units.
This banner basically can make your 25 attacks (19 from knights and 6 from cold ones) extremely reliable during second, thirds round of combat.
- Hydra banner: added with ASF rules, this BSB make your units unstoppable. First row of CO has 2 attacks each S4 and rerollable!!!

But the main point of fielding such an expensive unit, is to keep your 400 points safe. With a save of 2+ and a possible 5+ ward save, your opponent will struggle to get the VP.
So many times I have only the champion left, hiding behind a building and denying the VP.

To conclude, I consider my COK as my 8th ed must-have unit with the best ratio points/value in our legions.

Please let me know your experience as I am eager to see new combos for my second unit of knights!

Author:  The golden arrow [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:07 am ]
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Well, i think immune to psych is pretty crappy for us since we can't flee (it's certainly more bad than good) and leadership can be rerolled with bsb:s anyway.

Also I don't think they are that hard to kill, T3 2+ save knights die like flies to a lot of things out there.

They do dish out a lot of hurt though and it's certainly not a bad unit even if expensive...

Author:  Malus99 [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:14 am ]
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I love Cold ones too, in smaller games (around 1k) I tend to field them in units of 5 vanilla knights as a flanker or heavy hunter, but in larger games (2k+) units of 10 really kick ass. I run my standard unit with just FC because I don't like a single unit becoming a big points sink, especially ever since a unit of 10 CoK, general and sorceress all fled off the field in one game on turn two. Since I often put at least one (but it is usually only one now) character in the unit its overall points will climb pretty high, so having the base unit at 310 is already at the threshold of too many points. The only other upgrades I would consider for them are a few of the banners.

Often my CoK become the bodyguard for my general if he is a DL, I don't usually accompany them with sorceresses because miscasts wreak havoc, but in 8th I have found that they more often work solo, where I use them as monster hunters and hammers to the anvil. Occasionally I stick Malus in them just for fun :twisted:

Author:  Pjeos [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:50 am ]
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Hi there,

I'm currently using that unit a lot, but i do include the Hydra Banner BSB in 2.5k lists. Add 2 Hydras and you've got a brutal close combat army, though i'm only playing 1 lately.

As you mentioned, a big advantage of this unit is that it is extremely reliable and durable, will most usually deny VP and will most usually earn some VPs back. And it has worked great so far.

Only problem i see with them is when facing Skavens. They may kill them all with the Furnace or delay it forever with Engineers. In my last game, my Skaven opponent fielded 4 engineers that sat in front of my CoKs and delayed them for 2 turns. Then added a few giant rats for another 2 turns and my CoKs did nothing. Eventually, they got flank charged by those frenzy, nurglish monks...And it could have been worse: i saw a Skaven list in a recent toruney fielding 10 vanilla Engineers whose main task was to sit in front of enemy close combat units and die one on one.

Other than that, i like the unit very much, and i have it painted as well so i'll be playing it for a long time.

Author:  Babnik [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:13 am ]
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@Golden Arrow. True our COK can't flee anymore. In 7th, I was used to flee time to time if I got charged. And charging was crucial with previous rules.
But with 8th, who cares? Can you picture the elite of our legions fleeing because a failed panic test or denying a combat?

Author:  Meteor [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:18 pm ]
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Yep, that unit of CoK really does rock. I too, stick a Hydra Banner in it when I take it, their killing potential becomes monstrous since it benefits the mounts too. Imagine also backing it up further with +1A from the CoB?? :twisted:

Author:  Babnik [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:46 pm ]
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Usually, I blessed them with a 5+ ward save. Unless I'm sure to destroy the unit without any risk of retaliation.

At the last tourney, I destroyed in 2 rounds, Grimgor and 25 black orcs, then a toad with 30 Temple Guards!

Author:  xFallenx [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:38 pm ]
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All those glowing reviews being said, you don't really touch on the weaknesses and how to deal with them.

What would be really helpful/useful, when tooting the horn of a decent unit, is providing some insight into what you absolutely needed to do in order to provide the room for the COK's to work.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my unit of 10, but they aren't the only unit I field and there is no way they could do the job assigned if the support units didn't pave the way.

Author:  Tethlis [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:09 pm ]
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I've been very pleased with my unit of 11 with Ring of Hotek, Hag Graef and Dreadlord with Helm of Command. I've been trying it out lately, and it's performed very well. I particularly like the fact that it doesn't have any really major weaknesses; it's very durable versus shooting and even warmachines, and the great stats on Cold One Knights makes them highly resistant to most of the deadly spells that are being used. Obviously the default spell from Lore of Metal is dangerous, but hardly anyone seems to be using Metal these days anyway, so that's not so bad.

Major disadvantages of a large Cold One Knight unit:

-Very high point cost. Obviously, this is a significant point investment.
-Really requires a character support to be fully effective. Cauldron, Dreadlord, or Hydra Banner are virtually a must in one form or another, and all three can be very useful, but obviously are a lot of points tied up in just one unit.
-Not very flexible in terms of movement or bad deployment.
-Can rarely overcome Steadfast without support, and rarely benefit from Steadfast themselves. Similar to the point about requiring the Cauldron, you really have to plan for multiple rounds of combat since they won't often break ranked units with a charge.
-Still a chance of Stupidity...

Author:  Sulla [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:08 am ]
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I like the idea of a big unit of knights with either the hydra banner or the stubborn unkillable lord. My only concern is with those pesky dwarves and WoC who will field entirely great weapon equipped armies (or at the very least, frenzied halberd toting warriors).

Has anyone faced this kind of army with a big knight unit?

Author:  Meteor [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:34 pm ]
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The loss of a handful of them really hurts too, and dangerous terrain tests are NOT fun :(

Author:  Ichiyo1821 [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:09 pm ]
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Funny how a few months back a day after I got my huge ass brb and proposed my 11 strong COK knights with Dreadlord and BoHG people aid Heavy cav is useless for DE. Imo they are the easiest "Deathstar" incarnation we have. They have AS2+, Initiative 6 makes them safe from Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, strentgh 4 makes them fair well against Dwellers. Combine this with COB ward save makes them tough as nails. + 1 attack makes them combat monsters and with BoHG makes them perform well even in subsequent rounds of combat not to mention fear causing which makes them even more durable. Being hard to take out also makes them a good point denial and a good bunker for a standard and your general. Being stupid also makes them immune to panic checks and ignore even terror checks. Imo truly one if not the most viable unit in 8th edition along with 20 Crossbowmen, w/ shields, mus and standard.

Author:  Olderplayer [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:29 pm ]
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I agree with Ichi... COK are more resistant to dwellers and initiative based direct damage magic and are the only thing we have with a 2+ AS other than characters. Also, the ASF banner works very well with them because they do get stuck in extend combat now.

I'm consistently playing a COK bus in 8th edition with a dreadlord with crown of command, PoK, whip of agony, and the full 1+ AS. My view is not that it is the greatest ever. T3 and 2+ AS is just not enough to hold up against strong and tough units. More than half the time I find that the COK unit dies or is down to one or two models at the end of the game. Rather, the COK bus is used as a protective bubble for my dreadlord and BSB and to tar pit a tough enemy unit, while allowing my hydras to run around doing damage to the rest of the enemy army or to hit the flanks of the unit stuck on my COK/dreadlord unit in extended combat and my sorcerors and RXB units to deplete other stuff or assist in battles I can win. COK units are not that expensive to lose eventually but will kill enough in extended combat with the dreadlord to earn their points back and/or so deplete and tie down a tough enemy unit (such as a larger Temple Guard unit or a chaos knight bus with a stubborn dreadlord and war shrine blessing) to allow a hydra or something else to finish off the enemy unit. My dreadlord lives to the end in almost all battles and games and usually kills enough characters and stuff to pay for the COK unit eventually dying (usually late in the battle). Against certain tough units, the COK bus will lose CR and needs the BSB and the dreadlord to hold fast.

With the dreadlord and BSB in the unit, the ASF banner is a much better choice than extra attacks and the BSB dies too easily unless max protected or run behind and not in the unit. I find myself using the ward save from the cauldron more than half the time on the COK unit to reduce the rate of its attrition and futher protect the BSB. My BSB is often on a dark rider with the dragon helm to get to 1+ AS and flaming ward save of 2+ and the dawn stone for re-rolling armour saves. I'm not seeing a lot of killing blow or no armour save attacks in close combat and run the BSB out and behind the unit if I see that coming.

On the RoH. I find that the ring of hotek dies too quickly if on a champ and often play without a champion (better to simply add another knight). The only benefit of putting the RoH on a champ is forcing the opponent to overkill the champ (and, thus, kill fewer of the other knights or avoid focusing on the BSB). I'd much rather run a master with the magic cloak or something on a dark steed with beastmaster's scouge (1+ Attack, AP) in and the out of the unit to hunt war machines and circle behind enemy casters if they are pinned down by the units there are in to force miscasts or smaller dice rolls (rolling fewer dice in attempts to cast in order to avoid the risk of miscasts leads to a greater chance of failing to cast and prematurely ending the magic phase or greater chance of dispelling threats). Against empire and dwarf armies, the ring master has the war machine killing role with the beastmaster's scourge providing enogh S, AP and +1 attack to break most war machine crews. He is great for that role because he can charge out alone through narrower gaps to kill war machines and the dreadlord (being stubborn and hard to kill) can also charge out alone to tie up and tar pit something tough while the COK unit charges in my next turn.

I find that one must strategically consider what to challenge and when to challenge. For example, I recently tied up a bloodthirster with my dreadlord indefinitely while my COK and BSB models gained CR on a unit of fleshhounds so that I won the combat and forced daemonic instability tests to kill off the daemonic units and wound the BT. In another game, I had a chaos knight unit (killed the champ already) in the front of the COK unit and was charged by a warriors of chaos unit with a sorcerer and champ on my flank. MY BSB challenged (1+ AS, dawn stone, and sword of might for S5) and the champ had to answer (warriors must challenge and accept). That prevented the warrior unit from getting any attacks in on the flank and my BSB easily killed the champ. The next round the challenge had to be answered by the sorceror and the sorceror held up but the challenge prevented the warriors in the flank from getting any attacks in with their halberds. Meanwhile, the dreadlord and COK unit traded blows with the chaos knights until the knights finally died off(despite repeatedly rolling their armour saves). The whip with the extra attack, S5 and AP did most of the killing with the benefit of the asf banner allowing the dreadlord to re-roll to hit each round. Also, having the knights and their mounts strike first meant more cumulative attacks and hits (some re-rollable due to equal I and ASF banner) such that the COK unit barely survived, whereas it would have died had the ASF banner not reduced the number of chaos knights hitting back each turn. Using the cauldron ward save occassionally, I ended up with a two COK models left (standard bearer and musician), the dreadlord unharmed, and the BSB unharmed and, in return, killed a 7 chaos knight unit, and a sorceror and had a warrrios unit in the flank taking break tests until I could reform and face it. The game ended with VPs for 7 chaos knights and a sorceror on my side and no VPs on the opponent's side and his large warriors unit was tied up from rounds 3 to 6 doing nothing, freeing up one hydra and lvl 2 and lvl 4 casters and RXB units to focus on killing off a 75 marauder horde unit with a lvl 1 and lvl 2 caster and a BSB (soul stealer and black horror hits cut them down, shooting whittled them down, and then the hydra's breath weapon and charge finished them off when they broke after losing the second rank in combat) and a hellcannon. While the BSB escaped, killing 75 marauders with full command and a lvl 1 and lvl 2 caster paid off handsomely. (We were playing at 2750 points, so larger units were in play.)

Author:  Blondshade [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:21 pm ]
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my cok always die. only T3 is a big hinderance for them compared to elite calvary of other armies.

we hit like a train and not very much survives unless you hit rank up people, which i wouldnt recommend unless helped. Attacks back are bound to kill something.

it also sucks that you cant flee. ive been put in a bad situation a couple times and ended up losing my juicy squad instead of fighting another day.

my cok is collecting dust now, put them away unless i will make a calvary heavy list one day. fluffy.

Author:  Tethlis [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:08 am ]
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I feel like some form of +1 Attack benefit is really important to help get the most out of the Knights, and that a combat-oriented character is important as well. A simply 10 Cold One Knights, hits hard, but not THAT hard. The quality of each attack is exceptional, with that Initiative 6, high Weapon Skill Hatred Strength 6 attack, but if you're going up against a big ranked unit or hitting a tough enemy on a small frontage (like a dragon or a Hydra) then the Cold One Knights won't fare too well. I feel like the Cauldron and/or Hydra Banner and a BSB/Dreadlord for more concentrated hitting power is really important to make this unit functional.

As for their survivability, I see things two ways.

1) If the enemy focuses a lot of magic and hitting power on them, then that's hitting power that's diverted away from the rest of our relatively fragile army. The COK can soak up a lot of damage before they stop becoming a threat, so this is advantageous for us.

2) If the enemy ignores the Cold One Knights in favor of easier targets, then the Cold One Knights can get into combat unscathed and at maximum strength for doing damage.

Either way, they're a unit that the opponent has to really focus attention on in order to destroy.

Author:  Olderplayer [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:58 pm ]
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Tethlis has valid points.

Another important point is to use hexes and other methods to boost the unit. Two casters with Power of Darkness and one with a sac dagger with usually overwhelm the enemy with magic and ensure stuff gets through. Hexes and augments can then do a lot for this unit. For example, when using Lore of Metal, I will cast the 5+ scaly skin on the knights to boost their AS to 1+. It makes a significant difference. Also, the augment that adds +1 to hit, AP, and magical attacks can be very effective against tougher units (chaos chosen or warriors, chaos knights, or temple guard). Even cutting the AS by 1 with plague of rust pays off in extended combat with chaos knights, chaos warriors and chosen with shields, and TG.

My preference of late for an all-comers tourney list has been Lore of Shadow on the sac dagger lvl 4. The RIP hexes can reduced S or T and force the opponent to burn power dice to dispel if not dispelled initially. With reduced T the unit if more vulnerable to soul stealer. Miasma is not hard to cast even at the boosted level with the sac dagger and cuts BS, WS, M, and I enough (D3) to make a big difference against some common units. A lvl 2 with dark magic and tome can usually get the hex to cut WS to 1, meaning the COK and dreadlord and master are hitting on re-rollable 3"s while the enemy units are hitting on 5"s.

Author:  Ichiyo1821 [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:06 pm ]
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Yes it's true that you need a COB to fully realize the potential of the COKs but with the current trend of having a COB BSB it's pretty much became a drill for me to give the COK the ward save for the first and second turn (God forbid they aren't in combat by my 2nd turn) then give them +1 attack on the subsequent turns. That's pretty much 22 s6 attacks hitting on 3's most of the time with Hatred...I've pretty much killed Dragons, HPAs, equal sized Chaos Knights with Generals, Bloodthirsters etc etc. Sure I've spent a lot of them but its not likely my opponent can take them out. My opponents that try to do so testify that they are just rock solid but if they don't try to contain them, they pretty much run through everything. This is without considering the other units un my army like the Crossbowmen batteries, Corsairs and Hydras backed up by a Sorceress with Shadowlore and COB making them equally deadly..

Author:  Tethlis [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm ]
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olderplayer wrote:
My preference of late for an all-comers tourney list has been Lore of Shadow on the sac dagger lvl 4. The RIP hexes can reduced S or T and force the opponent to burn power dice to dispel if not dispelled initially. With reduced T the unit if more vulnerable to soul stealer. Miasma is not hard to cast even at the boosted level with the sac dagger and cuts BS, WS, M, and I enough (D3) to make a big difference against some common units. A lvl 2 with dark magic and tome can usually get the hex to cut WS to 1, meaning the COK and dreadlord and master are hitting on re-rollable 3"s while the enemy units are hitting on 5"s.

I agree with Lore of Shadow here, as lots of spells in there have great Synergy with Cold One Knights and really let you use them to strong effect.

-Miasma: Lots of good stuff here. Reducing Movement can help make sure the Cold One Knights can get the charge when facing other quick opponents. Reducing Initiative is often moot, but I can see the appeal if facing other Dark Elves. Reducing WS in particular can be great though. If you're taking a hard-hitting enemy whose Weapon Skill is already quite low, like Saurus or Ironguts, then you can really destroy their ability to retaliate against COK when they need a 5+ to hit. Similarly, against other elites, being able to hit on a 3+ re-rollable versus a 4+ re-rollable really helps those attacks hit home.

-Enfeebling Foe: Reducing the Strength if incoming attacks is always good.

-Withering: Obviously a great spell, but particularly great if you're tackling a Toughness 5+ opponent or if you're fighting in multiple rounds of combat with the base Strength 4 of Cold Ones. Also useful on the charge, to actually let the Cold One mounts themselves do a bit of damage.

-Pit of Shades/Pendulum: Useful for thinning out big blocks so that the Cold One Knights are more likely to crash through them quickly, or for removing problematic enemy monsters or other obstacles that could thraten the Knights.

-Okkam's Mindrazor: An obvious choice for knights who are stuck in combat over multiple rounds.

In the last few battles I've used the Knights, I've found that the momentum that can be generated between a Sac Dag Shadow Sorc, a Highorn with large Cold One Knight unit, Cauldron of Blood BSB, Hydra, and max-size Black Guard unit is appalling. The Cold One Knights and Hydra can overwhelm almost any flank, turning into towards the center. The opponent is often then stuck fighting Stubborn Black Guard or hordes of Dark Elf spearmen, none of which are going to be fleeing quickly, and the Cold One Knights and Hydra can easily come in for decisive flank charges. Even shooting-heavy opponents struggle a bit to overcome something like this; with the triple threat of Black Guard, Cold One Knights and Hydra, plus the tempting target of big units of Spearmen or a Cauldron of Blood lurking in the backline, it puts tremendous pressure on the opponent to allocate their magic/shooting in a manner that's decisive or effective.

In a 2500 point game earlier this week, I went up against a Lizardmen player with most of the usual toys:

-Slan with Cupped Hands, Becalming Cogitation, etc. in a large Temple Guard unit.
-Multiple Saurus Blocks
-Skink Priest on Engine
-Multiple Skink and Chameleon Skink units
-Cold One Riders with Scar Vet

My Cold One Knights, Hydra, Shades and Assassin were able to overwhelm the Cold One Riders, Saurus block and two skink units deployed opposite them, ultimately ending the game in the first two turns by setting up a combined charge on his Temple Guard and Slann with Mindrazor Cauldron-buffed Black Guard, COK, Dreadlord, and Hydra in Turn 3.

Author:  Enkiel [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:32 am ]
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Played my first game in 8th with Cold One (actually, it was a team game, but still).

9 Cold one, with unkillable Dreadlord... Quite amazing what it can do. Next time i'll use a crown of command to make sure the Ld test isnt too risky, but damn.

Author:  Babnik [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:18 am ]
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Yip, an unkillable dreadlord leading this size of COK unit is definitely cheezy! But I think this unit can handle anything without a Lord.

Question: beside ROH, what to give to the champ?

Author:  Enkiel [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:34 pm ]
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Babnik wrote:
Yip, an unkillable dreadlord leading this size of COK unit is definitely cheezy!

guess it wont help that they had the ASF banner? :oops: :lol:

Author:  Dirty Mac [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:25 pm ]
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It's nice to know they hit hard, and can be tooled up to survive.
I have 10, will that be enough?

Author:  Babnik [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:00 pm ]
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Sum up to the new posters:
@Enkiel: of course they have the ASF banner. It is the core of this unit
@Dirty Mac: 10 with above mentionned banner can stomp anything and denying the unit VP

Next step to make this unit even better; is ROH is the best magical item for the champion?

Author:  Enkiel [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:48 pm ]
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Babnik wrote:
Sum up to the new posters:
@Enkiel: of course they have the ASF banner. It is the core of this unit
@Dirty Mac: 10 with above mentionned banner can stomp anything and denying the unit VP

Next step to make this unit even better; is ROH is the best magical item for the champion?
i personally tried it last game, and was even lucky enough to be near both lvl4 mage...

thing is, if they blow up with big template, there's good chance you'll be locked with them in combat already, and could blow up your own unit too...

i dont think its worth it.

Author:  Tethlis [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:31 pm ]
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I've been experimenting a bit with the Ring of Hotek, and I think it's okay, but I don't think it's great. I really haven't see myself that close to enemy casters for a lot of the game, and while it's not a BAD choice, I don't think it's the BEST choice. I like the idea of possibly giving the champion a magic weapon to increase his hitting power over multiple turns. The Dreadlord does well for keeping the unit's killing power high when they're stuck in combat, but it would be great to have a second source of high-Strength hits in there, rather than having the whole unit of Knights rely on that paltry Strength 4.

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