Most annoying unit

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Persuader
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Most annoying unit

Post by Persuader »

I think the Chosen combo with the mark of Tzeetch, warshrine, terror banner and the item that you can re-roll your eye of the gods result sucks pretty hard (ofc with shields)

So you have T4(5) models with a 3+ AS and a 3+ WS



Hellcanon with there extra wounds (crew) is very annoying as well in my book.

btw do Salamanders and Razerdons in the lizardmen army have the extra wounds as well? (like the Hellcanon)
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Post by Dalamar »

You deal with them the same way you deal with any deathstar:

Miasma + Pit of Shades/Purple Sun
The Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers Below (which we don't have)
Or just The Final Transmutation.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Red... »

Yes, but there's some pretty quick fixes available:

1) avoid it. We're dark elves, with move 5 and a march of 10. They're humans with move 4 and a march of 8. Just keep out of its way and it's a whole chunk of points that isn't going to do much all game. Admittedly, with march blocking now less viable, this is harder to do in 8th.

2) tie it up. Take an unkillable dreadlord (e.g. dreadlord on cold one with pendant of khaine, dragon helm, full mundane armour and crown of command). That should keep the unit tied up for most, if not all of the game.

3) Wait until he's not watching and then throw all of his models away.


Personally, I'm not convinced its the nastiest combo in the game: it's very unpleasant, sure, but it is beatable and doesn't auto win.

In terms of annoying unit, well, I've never actually seen it played, but I always imagine that a Daemon Prince (causes terror) with diabolical splendour (-1 leadership to all enemies in line of sight), combined with a BSB with the banner of -1 leadership to all enemies in line of sight, would be ridiculous versus any horde army out there. The player with said Daemon Prince flies his model next to any unit outside of the general's bubble and watches them run immediately away. Beatable, sure, but ridiculous too.
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Post by Dalamar »

Red... wrote:In terms of annoying unit, well, I've never actually seen it played, but I always imagine that a Daemon Prince (causes terror) with diabolical splendour (-1 leadership to all enemies in line of sight), combined with a BSB with the banner of -1 leadership to all enemies in line of sight, would be ridiculous versus any horde army out there. The player with said Daemon Prince flies his model next to any unit outside of the general's bubble and watches them run immediately away. Beatable, sure, but ridiculous too.


And you never will see it because Terror now causes panic when charging. That's all there is to it. Bit meh.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Persuader »

Dalamar wrote:Or just The Final Transmutation.


Thats what I do for almost 6 turns but sometimes you need to put your magic elsewere.

And Ok you can tie it up, been there done that but in the end he has a huge point denial.... :cry:

Last games we always end up in a draw because of that unit....
I will switch my 2 magic lores next time.
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Post by Dalamar »

Do it the other way around, Shadow Spells are actually harder to cast than Death Spells. Shadow will benefit more from the Supreme Sorc's +4 to cast.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Red... »

He does need to get a 12 to get the 4+ ward (11 with the magic item...)

I think the magic item states that he can add +1 or -1 to the score of the roll for eye of the gods by the way, not that he can re-roll it...

He's almost certain to get the 4+ ward eventually, but not for the first few turns: if you can deal with the unit during that period then he is only getting an armour save...

Thanks Dalamar, I've not yet played much 8th ed, so am still not as up to speed with the rules as I'd like...
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Post by Persuader »

Dalamar wrote:Do it the other way around, Shadow Spells are actually harder to cast than Death Spells. Shadow will benefit more from the Supreme Sorc's +4 to cast.


Yea but miasma is the sig.spell so I get that no matter what AND Purple Sun is a #6 so I have more chance to roll that with my level 4.

I always run a level4Shadow and a level2death/Metal. (or 1 level 4 Metal)


Red... wrote:I think the magic item states that he can add +1 or -1 to the score of the roll for eye of the gods by the way, not that he can re-roll it...


yea but if he rolls something he does not have he does +1 or -1 to something he does have and then he can re-roll it...
He always has it in turn 1/2
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Post by Dalamar »

He gets to modify the roll by 1 and also reroll all results of Stupidity and "Nothing Happens", that increases his chances quite a bit.

Yes, Miasma is easier to cast than Spirit Leech, but if you want to seriously debuff the enemy with The Enfeebling Foe and The Withering (the two that really matter) you are facing casting rolls higher than Death Magic has (other than Purple Sun) and even Mindrazor comes close to Purple Sun in difficulty.

Also I wouldn't put my money on either Purple Sun or Pit of Shades, they have a tendency to severely disappoint for their casting value.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Masked jackal »

Dalamar wrote:Also I wouldn't put my money on either Purple Sun or Pit of Shades, they have a tendency to severely disappoint for their casting value.

Not to mention being quite situational. On average Shadow is a much better generalist lore, while Death is more for very specific counters. Reducing S/T, striking with Ld for S, those things can be useful in a whole variety of ways. Killing character models, reducing leadership, I-testing vortex. These are a bit more situational. At least with Shadow the signature spell solves some of the I issues you'd have against Elves.
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Post by Persuader »

Dalamar wrote:You deal with them the same way you deal with any deathstar:

Miasma + Pit of Shades/Purple Sun


If I want to try this (like you suggested) Then I can't depend on my level 2 to get the purple sun spell.
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Post by Tethlis »

To steer things back on topic...

6-strong units of Cairn Wraiths with Banshee.

Fewer magic missiles in our lores makes them hard to blast, no easy source of Magical Attacks make them hard to kill, and they're fast, hitty and come back to life.
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Post by Dalamar »

One of the reasons one of my sorceresses knows fire or metal lore now...

Give entire unit of 20 crossbowmen magical attacks - unit of cairn wraiths dead.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Tethlis »

Dalamar wrote:One of the reasons one of my sorceresses knows fire or metal lore now...

Give entire unit of 20 crossbowmen magical attacks - unit of cairn wraiths dead.


Agreed. One of two reasons why I like running Metal on a caster. Ethereal units are frightening; having magical attacks is gratifying.
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Post by Dalamar »

And if you're not playing with fire or metal then lifetaker is a must, its attacks are back to being magical now :P
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Ichiyo1821 »

Any Skaven list that has more than 50+ slaves in one unit. Sure there are ways around it but if you want to get annoyed by even a 9 year old, tell him to march two units of 70 Slaves each up your front, nuff said for such being stupidly simple.


Empire Mortar, Warp Lightning Cannon - Even it fires once, these two annoys me nonstop.

Cairn Wraiths and She biatch - I love shooting and melee, My lord is the only one with a magical weapon, my Sorceress uses Shadow most of the time...go figure..
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Post by Ilderoth »

Concerning the problem of eliminating Cairn Wraiths, it might be much easier to destroy this unit than you think at first glance. The Ethereal special rule states that they can be hit and wounded by 'magic effects'. On my interpretation, this means that they can be taken out not only by magic missiles, but also by for instance pit of shades and almost any other spell that causes damage. It seems to follow from the rules book's chapter on magic, which states that once you have succesfully cast a spell, you resolve its effect - which is magical.
Last edited by Ilderoth on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red... »

You deal with them the same way you deal with any deathstar:

Miasma + Pit of Shades/Purple Sun
The Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers Below (which we don't have)
Or just The Final Transmutation.




Absolutely do not go magic heavy against a WoC Tzeentch army.

Yeah, you might get lucky the first couple of times when he's suprised by how much magic you bring.

But WoC Tzeentch has some of the nastiest, cheapest anti-magic options in the game. The main offenders: Black tongue (converts an unsuccessful cast into a miscast), infernal puppet (allows the player to modify a roll on the miscast table by up to d3 once per player turn) and the pandemonium spell (cast on an 8, remains in play, causes all enemy spells to generate a miscast (but not with IF) on the roll of any double, anywhere in the battlefield). Once your opponent figures out that you are attemtping to derail his death star Chosen unit with magic, they will (if they have any sense) stock up on some of these goodies and then your sorceresses are going to really struggle.
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Post by Jadin »

Im not a huge fan of my friend's Clan Rat unit that's pushing the screaming bell and holding the BSB in the unit, making it tough to break the rats.
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Post by Minaras »

Dalamar wrote:
The Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers Below (which we don't have)


Enfeebling Foe + Black Horror
Hoooty-Hoot and all that jazz
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Post by Sulla »

...still allows the 3+ ward save. Don't even bother. It's gotta be one of the spells that ignores wards. On anything else, the combo is good though.
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Post by Auere »

The most annoying units in warhammer 8th?


TREBUCHETS


One little stone, and your black guard is reduced from 20 to 4 models. They almost make me not want to field infantry at all. And they cost ridicules 90 points a piece... you just got to be kidding me!?! Other factions can also be pretty devastating with their warmashines, but not for that price...
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Post by Jbtheslipperking »

Trebuchets indeed, guarded by small knight units. Extremely annoying, seems to be autohit spot on every time to.

Ofc Teclis if SC is allowed.

Slann with lore of life, 2+ward against range, 4+ otherwise and ofc all the nastyness he also brings. Almost unkillable and keeps supporting the the whole army.

Steam Tank. A big discussion as always, but still it bothers me alot with 10w and T10 it is an abomination.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Dalamar wrote:He gets to modify the roll by 1 and also reroll all results of Stupidity and "Nothing Happens", that increases his chances quite a bit.
Add Valkia to the equation for perma re-rolls...

My most annoying unit I faced used to be the Regen bunker of the vamps - luckily this is somewhat nerfed now but still can be annoying if you're not prepared for it!

Stanks should NOT be T10 with 10 wounds - nuff said.

Template warmachines of many varieties - Hellstorm Rocket battery is another good EG in line with trebs (though more expensive)

I think the only consistently reliable solution vs the Chosen Bunker is the NEW captain scarlett (as Dal explains above) - if/once your opponent stocks up on antimagic gizmos (dang I like and loath WoC for those!)

I'm not sure what the most nasty unit to face is - I think that temple guard backed up by an Engine of the Gods/Toad are up there for sure. Still gotta play more 8th before making a decision...

Oh and our Hydras are still as nasty as ever... :twisted:
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Post by Auere »

All my opponents think that Chuck Norris is the most annoying opponent. With more than 2000 victory points on his account from three battles, they are proberbly right...
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