I used a dragon for several 8th edition games. I liked it, but found that it was too hit-or-miss. Against opponents with cannons or stonethrowers, it was an awful gamble. Against opponents without these things, it utterly destroyed them because infantry blocks have a hard time counter dragons.
The thing now is to use a dragon purely to chew through Steadfast, or go after units that don't have steadfast at all. The dragon is there purely to kill, and as long as you anticipate challenges, they are not much of an issue. You shouldn't be charging a lone dragon into a unit... You should be charging with a dragon, 30+ spearmen and a Cold One Chariot to generate a pile of kills and overwhelm their Steadfast, with the champion in the spear unit ready to accept any challenges and leaving the dragon free to kill.
For now, I use the Dreadlord/Cold One Knights in a similar way to the dragon. Their Knights' mobility and maneuverability are less, but their hitting power and survivability are greater, they perform better unsupported, and they benefit more from the Cauldron of Blood.
Cold ones: A science in brutal force.
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
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Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
That rear charging dragon (no need but it was your example) would get 3 points just for charging into the rear... that's max of SCR the unit of warriors can have (not enough for 3 ranks, so 2 ranks + banner), one wound makes him win.
But you're missing my point. Why would a dragon charge warriors when it can run through your knights in one round (even if you challenge him out, you're down to 4 knights which no longer form a rank)... And this isn't just dragons, hydras, HPA's, all sorts of monsters, heck, an army of ogres with insane amount of return attacks, all of it will make short work of your small units. All Ogres would have to do (and they're supposed to be an underpowered army) is march forward, charge when in range and they would push you off the table because you have no staying power with MSU.
I played an MSU with no anvils at all in 6-7th ed... it was the best way to play, the invisible dark elf force, striking from all directions and never giving the enemy a chance to shoot back.
It changed in 8th. Small units are still useful, but if you have nothing to anchor your opponent on (or some nice massive templates that aren't one use only) they will simply roll over you.
But you're missing my point. Why would a dragon charge warriors when it can run through your knights in one round (even if you challenge him out, you're down to 4 knights which no longer form a rank)... And this isn't just dragons, hydras, HPA's, all sorts of monsters, heck, an army of ogres with insane amount of return attacks, all of it will make short work of your small units. All Ogres would have to do (and they're supposed to be an underpowered army) is march forward, charge when in range and they would push you off the table because you have no staying power with MSU.
I played an MSU with no anvils at all in 6-7th ed... it was the best way to play, the invisible dark elf force, striking from all directions and never giving the enemy a chance to shoot back.
It changed in 8th. Small units are still useful, but if you have nothing to anchor your opponent on (or some nice massive templates that aren't one use only) they will simply roll over you.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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L1qw1d
- Malekith's Personal Guard
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
- Location: Kittenmarsh
- Contact:
One thing I've noted in some of the change of discourse in thread is that we're focusing on a stable staple unit that can hold on long enough for a nice side or rear stabbity 
Hydrae and Dracoforms appear to be bait & fodder. BG appear to be ok but not efficient in some cases because of size limitation.
So, what Anvils well now and what combo makes good CR?
Hydrae and Dracoforms appear to be bait & fodder. BG appear to be ok but not efficient in some cases because of size limitation.
So, what Anvils well now and what combo makes good CR?
Oderint dum Metuant.
Spearmen make a good anvil if there are enough of them and what I usually use, BG because of their stubborn though they are expensive, corsairs or RXBs could do it, but generally I find spearmen the best because they are cheap bodies.
Veni, Vidi, Voro!!!
All things perish, this is the law of existence, accept your suffering and your mortality, only by using this truth, can you transcend it.
All things perish, this is the law of existence, accept your suffering and your mortality, only by using this truth, can you transcend it.
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Strollinthewoods
- Corsair
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
Im not actually missing the point in the way you put it. I thought I make it clear why I acutally think champions are worth in in this edition.
What the dragon would and wont charge is really not up to me to decide. And I find that its really no point using to much focus on it. Your argument will not help me at all If I remove the champion, and later find the unit beeing charged by a lone hero.. I cant just tell my oppnent, "you know you shold not do that? there are other more "juicy" units you could kill"
Good you have founde some uses for it Tehlis.
Are there many here that play RTS games like starcraft and Warcraft 3?
L1qw1d
Depending on you opponent, almost every elf in you list is a potential killer.
I have 1 reliable stop what may unit in my list and that is the dreadlord, but as I have said before, I would go for 2 hydras were it not for etc comp being played at the moment in my area. (no duplicate rare) /etc- european team championship)
The main reason for that is that monsters are realy good grinders, and with the amount of huge units around you better bring some grinders.
I will not go into detail at this time, but you have different type of large units.
You have "meat-grinders" and the typical "cannon fodder" units. Its a pity, but in dealing with the cannon fodder you need the hydra the most. Its pretty much impossible to negate their steadfast, and t3 wlfs will start taking casualties in a prolonged fight, but worst of all will be STUCK for a long time. Depending on your unit, that is something very bad, or just horrible.
What I myself more or less do is this: Every single unit in my list is a anvil. Dark elfs can do this with harpies and good speedbump placements. I am this early in the new edition very much in the "wait with all the comp camp" For me the best thing with 8ed is the possibility to bring so many small units I feel like. Before the max 4 special slots was a real killer for me.
Most of my lists have had around 8 specials -- THIS is the most significant impact 8ed have had on my games. I can have the cheap GOOD units I want when I want them.
I remember 6ed when I had all sorts of charts and plans revolving around using my ONE hard earned spescial slot, panic causing, ld 6 harpie unit. I even dedicated an entire hero slot for the beastmaster on FOOT, to use him as a speedbump.
Depending on the unit you want to kill, and what cob blessings and units you have available, almost anything can be a hammer these days.
But the well used hammer is the hydra with a small unit of cok with cob blessing in my list. Against many units, its equally important that its difficult to generate much cr back.
So minimizing frontage with a hammer is very usefull. Both knights with their good save, few numbers, high weaponskill and good armoursave and the hydra dont give away cr by dying easily, and kills drowes by themselves.
In earlier editions clipping were frowned upon, and with good reason. Now I would encourage it. Maby not in the way you would normally see clipping in 6 ed. But totaly abuse the nature of the large horde units.
one of many examples coule be:
1 send in your dreadlord at the amost far left of a horde unit. He now is front to front with model nr 2 from the left. In the same turn march up your hydra or a spearblock unit you your dreadlords left side, and stop 1" or so from the horde fighting the dreadlord.
Then you should put a unit of harpies on the left side of the horde unit, stoping him from doing any clever reforming.
What the dragon would and wont charge is really not up to me to decide. And I find that its really no point using to much focus on it. Your argument will not help me at all If I remove the champion, and later find the unit beeing charged by a lone hero.. I cant just tell my oppnent, "you know you shold not do that? there are other more "juicy" units you could kill"
Good you have founde some uses for it Tehlis.
Are there many here that play RTS games like starcraft and Warcraft 3?
L1qw1d
Depending on you opponent, almost every elf in you list is a potential killer.
I have 1 reliable stop what may unit in my list and that is the dreadlord, but as I have said before, I would go for 2 hydras were it not for etc comp being played at the moment in my area. (no duplicate rare) /etc- european team championship)
The main reason for that is that monsters are realy good grinders, and with the amount of huge units around you better bring some grinders.
I will not go into detail at this time, but you have different type of large units.
You have "meat-grinders" and the typical "cannon fodder" units. Its a pity, but in dealing with the cannon fodder you need the hydra the most. Its pretty much impossible to negate their steadfast, and t3 wlfs will start taking casualties in a prolonged fight, but worst of all will be STUCK for a long time. Depending on your unit, that is something very bad, or just horrible.
What I myself more or less do is this: Every single unit in my list is a anvil. Dark elfs can do this with harpies and good speedbump placements. I am this early in the new edition very much in the "wait with all the comp camp" For me the best thing with 8ed is the possibility to bring so many small units I feel like. Before the max 4 special slots was a real killer for me.
Most of my lists have had around 8 specials -- THIS is the most significant impact 8ed have had on my games. I can have the cheap GOOD units I want when I want them.
I remember 6ed when I had all sorts of charts and plans revolving around using my ONE hard earned spescial slot, panic causing, ld 6 harpie unit. I even dedicated an entire hero slot for the beastmaster on FOOT, to use him as a speedbump.
Depending on the unit you want to kill, and what cob blessings and units you have available, almost anything can be a hammer these days.
But the well used hammer is the hydra with a small unit of cok with cob blessing in my list. Against many units, its equally important that its difficult to generate much cr back.
So minimizing frontage with a hammer is very usefull. Both knights with their good save, few numbers, high weaponskill and good armoursave and the hydra dont give away cr by dying easily, and kills drowes by themselves.
In earlier editions clipping were frowned upon, and with good reason. Now I would encourage it. Maby not in the way you would normally see clipping in 6 ed. But totaly abuse the nature of the large horde units.
one of many examples coule be:
1 send in your dreadlord at the amost far left of a horde unit. He now is front to front with model nr 2 from the left. In the same turn march up your hydra or a spearblock unit you your dreadlords left side, and stop 1" or so from the horde fighting the dreadlord.
Then you should put a unit of harpies on the left side of the horde unit, stoping him from doing any clever reforming.
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Strollinthewoods
- Corsair
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
Im going to playtest a new 1800 pts build.
Dreadlord on pegasuss with pendant, crown, helm, and sword of might 300 pts
Master Bsb cloak of hag graef, 2+ ward vs fire talisman, pegasuss, lance.
Both have appropriate normal mundane armor kits.
30 warriors
17 warriors
10 rxb
3x 5 harpies
8 cok with asf
5 cok with flaming banner
5cok
1 war hydra.
Im thinking this might help speeding up the pace the army operates in. Not having to wait for the slower cualdron. And you make your dreadlord lockdown much more mobile, making it possible to fast reposition both heroes.
One thing Im trying to figure out, is if you can join units when mounted on pegasusses in 8ed. Do you guys know if they can do that now?
Dreadlord on pegasuss with pendant, crown, helm, and sword of might 300 pts
Master Bsb cloak of hag graef, 2+ ward vs fire talisman, pegasuss, lance.
Both have appropriate normal mundane armor kits.
30 warriors
17 warriors
10 rxb
3x 5 harpies
8 cok with asf
5 cok with flaming banner
5cok
1 war hydra.
Im thinking this might help speeding up the pace the army operates in. Not having to wait for the slower cualdron. And you make your dreadlord lockdown much more mobile, making it possible to fast reposition both heroes.
One thing Im trying to figure out, is if you can join units when mounted on pegasusses in 8ed. Do you guys know if they can do that now?
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Strollinthewoods
- Corsair
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
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Strollinthewoods
- Corsair
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
oh my oh my. There are some rules here regarding mounstrous mounts I was not aware of at all.
I did know that you dont get look out sir rolls when you are larger than your host unit.
I did not know that if you put him in a unit of say 30 warriors you would have to do 30 hits before you actually NEED to put one on the pegasuss hero.
Does not work like that vs teplates and the like of course. But this could be very usefull to know if you should ever find yourself in a tournament environment, and you are up against someone with lore of metal and you have a pendant dependant lord =)
You could then just put him in a unit and use that as a human (elfish) shield to get him into combat. This actually makes it if not advisable, but viable to actually skip the wardsave vs fire items on your pegasuss characters.
You then free up some very important pts, alowing the lord to have 30 pts instead of 20, and 25 for the master.
No need to stick to any one unit either, you can freely jump between units should you be up against metal.
I did know that you dont get look out sir rolls when you are larger than your host unit.
I did not know that if you put him in a unit of say 30 warriors you would have to do 30 hits before you actually NEED to put one on the pegasuss hero.
Does not work like that vs teplates and the like of course. But this could be very usefull to know if you should ever find yourself in a tournament environment, and you are up against someone with lore of metal and you have a pendant dependant lord =)
You could then just put him in a unit and use that as a human (elfish) shield to get him into combat. This actually makes it if not advisable, but viable to actually skip the wardsave vs fire items on your pegasuss characters.
You then free up some very important pts, alowing the lord to have 30 pts instead of 20, and 25 for the master.
No need to stick to any one unit either, you can freely jump between units should you be up against metal.
Strollinthewoods wrote:But this could be very usefull to know if you should ever find yourself in a tournament environment, and you are up against someone with lore of metal and you have a pendant dependant lord =)
You could then just put him in a unit and use that as a human (elfish) shield to get him into combat. This actually makes it if not advisable, but viable to actually skip the wardsave vs fire items on your pegasuss characters.
No need to stick to any one unit either, you can freely jump between units should you be up against metal.
not really, golden hounds (a single target verion of searing doom) will target the pegasus master regardless and kill him.
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Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1444
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Darktan wrote:not really, golden hounds (a single target verion of searing doom) will target the pegasus master regardless and kill him.
Assuming they take Golden Hounds. I find it's frequently exchanged for something else, since the default spell is "better" in many circumstances and the rest of the Metal Spells are very useful. You'll also know the enemy has Golden Hounds too, which can let you prioritize your dispels or focus on staying out of range to avoid it.
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.
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Strollinthewoods
- Corsair
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:17 pm
You said exactly what I was thinking Tethlis.
I will leave the 2+ ward on the master bsb, and free up the points used on the dragon helm on the Dreadlord, and instead go for Black dragon egg, lance and shield for him.
That I think will do much more damage each game, and vs metal lore with signature spell, I will keep him in units, and leapfrog from unit to unit.
Should a mage turn up that acutally has the golden hounds, I will have to adjust my play in those few games.
But tnx for pointing out that there are more spells than the metal signature spell that negates the pendant and are fire based.
I will leave the 2+ ward on the master bsb, and free up the points used on the dragon helm on the Dreadlord, and instead go for Black dragon egg, lance and shield for him.
That I think will do much more damage each game, and vs metal lore with signature spell, I will keep him in units, and leapfrog from unit to unit.
Should a mage turn up that acutally has the golden hounds, I will have to adjust my play in those few games.
But tnx for pointing out that there are more spells than the metal signature spell that negates the pendant and are fire based.
I had been toying with taking a unti of COK and 2 chariots for afew weeks. After reading this article i decided to give it a go and was not disappointed. On a charge into my opponents Dwarf Longbeards i took out his BSB easily and afew RnF which after taking 1 loss allowed me to win combat.
So thank you for making me take them
So thank you for making me take them
We need more slaves !