Pendant of Khaleath. Cheesey or Not?

[Malekii]

I've been hearing a lot about The pendants cheesyness or non cheesiness.
So i've decided to settle this once and for all (at least until 9th edition)

Please don't be bias just because we have it and they don't

For the record I find that it can easily be beaten by no and low strength hits plus no ward save items.

[Rork]

This is subjective, and doesn't really have a "final" answer.

It's still a good item, but as you say, there has been a rise in spells that inflict wounds with no strength (metal magic, multiple top level spells, Curse of the Horned Rat...) that many players can cast quite easily since they're taking level 4 wizards more.

But since many of those killer spells get around all ward saves, the pendant is still in line with them in most instances (bar metal).

The real test will be whether we see more no strength/stat test spells in the 8th ed army books - The usefulness of the pendant may end up getting eroded over the next few years.

[Kaleth stinson]

My impression is that people that doesent know the full game mechanics, see the pendant as the most overpowered item in the book. Since "most" attacks are at str3 or more, it means that its the same as a 4+ward, but it gets better with higher str and its 10 points cheaper that the standard 4+ward.

As Rork mentioned, if you know how to get pass the pendant, then its not that good, but it seems like people havent seen that yet.

Still, theres a reason that a dreadlord, with decent AS and the pendant is called "The Unkillable Dreadlord".

[Tzelok]

Hard to vote. I wouldn't call cheese if anyone else did this, but I personally try not to use the pendant in conjunction with armour. Coupled with a 1+ save I personally consider it too good, therefore typically only use it on my level 4 as the only save he gets.

[Carolus]

In my opinion it is not cheesy.

Compared to other ward save items from all books, it can be seen as too strong and too cheap. However it has its flaws, especially now in 8th where there are more ways around it. (I didn't consider it cheesy in 7th either, mind you)

You also have to take into perspective that even our Lords have T3, which can be used to argue that DE need a "better" protective item than certain other races.

I find it interesting when certain players in my group openly voice their disgust as soon as they see I use the pendant on one of my characters. Instead of actually using their experience of having faced it before and try to take advantage of its weaknesses, they still try to take the character out with their own, often S5+ combat character.
The more experienced players have no problems with it though.

Same goes for the hydra, one player in particular makes me smile everytime I field it, due to (again) voicing his disgust and repeatingly stating: "there's no way I can kill it". He then proceeds to ignore it with all his shooting (skaven, I mean c'mon!) and let it run rampant across his lines, due to simple bias.

Thus, I do not feel bad about fielding any of these two (three in the event of dual hydras )

[Meteor]

It's one of those 'sitting on the fence' things. Like many of our other items and even units, it's powerful when used correctly. However, its fundamental flaw is its strength dependent condition, which renders attacks that doesn't use a strength value to bypass our so called powerful ward. Or a low strength attack, but the latter is of less significance when used in conjunction with a high AS from our Master or Dreadlords. -A person who is familiar with DE and this item can easily find a way to counter it if they really wanted to kill our wearer.

That alone may be starting to head down cheese-vale for me, but it really is just someone patching up the conditions that makes this item not as powerful as it could be. So I wouldn't really mind.

Like when used with a Sorceress, who doesn't wear armour, and being T3, becomes no less vulnerable to low strength attacks where the Pendant wouldn't work as well as it could.

So once again, that ties back to the point about how you use it. So it is no way, an overly powerful item because of that unfixed ward save value flaw.

I think it is so powerful at the moment because of its points cost. 35 points for an 'strength dependent but normally very useful ward save is quite cheap. Especially when you consider a 5+ is 30pts and a 4+ is 45pts.

At 35pts, it leaves our character with enough points to purchase other useful magical gear to compliment the ward save. So if its cost gets bumped up, thereby removing our flexibility with other more useful magic items, then it wouldn't be seen as a really 'cheesy' item then

[Carolus]

Very true, Meteor.

Also, while a sorceress is a very powerful caster, she is very frail, costly and due to the higher amount of dices she can use, risk of miscasts is increased (depending on how you play your magic phase, of course)
Easy VP's for opponents if not carrying the pendant.

You also have to consider the fact that it's a 7th ed item, where the BRB ward save items didn't exist.

[Tah kazak rik]

Its cheesy more than it is not.

At 35 pts, it will basically always provide at least a 4+ ward on average, and at worst a 5+ ward, and best a 2+.

It is too powerful for its points cost. I would say at 45 pts (cost of normal 4+ ward items) then it would be fine. But even then it is really too powerful.

I think the ward should be capped at 3+.

[Carolus]

At 35 pts, it will basically always provide at least a 4+ ward on average, and at worst a 5+ ward, and best a 2+.

Always? What about no-S attacks? Ward ignoring spells?

[Tah kazak rik]

At 35 pts, it will basically always provide at least a 4+ ward on average, and at worst a 5+ ward, and best a 2+.

Always? What about no-S attacks? Ward ignoring spells?

Thats why I said basically. And no strength attacks happen to be rare especially in CC.

And Ward Ignoring effects, well they effect everyone who has a ward save, so that doesnt really make the pendants effect non-cheesy now does it?

[Carolus]

At 35 pts, it will basically always provide at least a 4+ ward on average, and at worst a 5+ ward, and best a 2+.

Always? What about no-S attacks? Ward ignoring spells?

Thats why I said basically. And no strength attacks happen to be rare especially in CC.

And Ward Ignoring effects, well they effect everyone who has a ward save, so that doesnt really make the pendants effect non-cheesy now does it?

Good point. I seem to be facing death magic alot these days though, which has proven to be my pendant-wielding generals doom on more than one occasion

[Tah kazak rik]

Good point. I seem to be facing death magic alot these days though, which has proven to be my pendant-wielding generals doom on more than one occasion

You must be coming across Laniph alot, or Bjuna.

But of course, both of these spells especially Bjuna can cause alot of wounds, up to 12, and they wound rather easily. So even with a good 4+ ward they will like be dead or have one wound remaining.

[The virgin forest]

Is a T5, 3+ ward, stubborn chaos lord cheesy?

Is a VHS WAlter cheesy?

is a T5, 1+ rerollable AS, 4+ ward, stubborn dwarf lord cheesy?

etc.

etc.

etc.

Most armies have some rather nasty character builds, but as the game has gotten less dependant on characters in 8th, I can't say that they're game breaking.

[Sulphunet]

And out of nowhere, Sulphunet strikes with common sense. Who cares about "cheesy"? It's damn useful!

And sorry for language that may offend, it just makes my point sound better.

Everybody can come up with a terrible combination for enemies, so why can't we?

[Tethlis]

Everybody can come up with a terrible combination for enemies, so why can't we?

Agreed.

Yes, the Pendant is powerful. However, like most things, it's only powerful if the enemy doesn't plan for it. Most armies can make a character who is roughly "unkillable" in differnet forms.

So in a vacuum, the Pendant is too strong.

In the context of a 2500 point list, where both sides are taking useful and powerful options and utilizing efficient characters builds, less so.

If your combat strategy is hinging on killing a fighting Lord-level character by bashing on him in combat or shooting at him with warmachines (the two things the Pendant is great for) then you may need to revise your strategy, because there's lots of opponents against whom that won't work, no matter what army you're facing.

[Rork]

Is a T5, 3+ ward, stubborn chaos lord cheesy?

Is a VHS WAlter cheesy?

is a T5, 1+ rerollable AS, 4+ ward, stubborn dwarf lord cheesy?
.

None of those combos are from one specific item, they rely on a combination of items that cost a lot more than 35pts.

[Dangerous Beans]

None of those combos are from one specific item , they rely on a combination of items that cost a lot more than 35pts.

Exactly.

It becomes strong once you can gain a 1+ armour save: sure there are ways to DEAL with it - itd be utterly ridiculous it there was no way to deal with. I think that this item is somewhat in line with the steam tank dicussion or perhaps even the hydra debate: it is often an investment for the player taking these models (a kitted out pendent bearer of varying types is also an investment - though the lower end cost of these guys eg. a foot master with mundane armour and pendent is obviously much less so).

The trouble is opponents often don't really know how to deal with it: an all comers list will often struggle against any of the 3 above (there are many more examples too: tzeentch chosen and dual warshrine for eg to gain the 3++), its disappointing for the player who has invested in the points for this when the gamble does NOT pay off (and thus the price seems reasonable) but for the opponent who is having to strain every resource to do so (eg. shooting/magicing everything at a steam tank) it feels like a cheated game somewhat because the model is deemed as being over powered for its price.

So I think, yes there are ways to deal with it, but no, there are not enough of these YET for it to NOT be warranted as cheesy.

At the moment it is too powerful IMHO but as Rork said at the start: there won't be a true end to this discussion - its very subjective.

For me the game is about having challenging fun. Many opponents of mine have folded after realising they cannot deal with the pendent. Thats not a challenge or fun in my sense of the word so try to limit myself with it (unless my opponent is trying HARD combos too) - for example only having it on a sorceress...

[The virgin forest]

Is a T5, 3+ ward, stubborn chaos lord cheesy?

Is a VHS WAlter cheesy?

is a T5, 1+ rerollable AS, 4+ ward, stubborn dwarf lord cheesy?
.

None of those combos are from one specific item, they rely on a combination of items that cost a lot more than 35pts.

And so does the PoK.

When I started out playing the game, I played mortal HoC (WoC) and fought an empire opponent. I had to accept that being gunned down was a part of life, but I consoled myself, knowing that I at least had my larger-than-life chaos lord of death and destruction +2. Nothing felt like a greater slap in the face, when said lord was met by the VHS and all his advantages was not onl nullified, but also turned against him. My armies greatest attraction (super villain) was rendered useless by a simple trinket worn by a character worth less than half his points, while my army was rendered useless from the lack of shooting - that felt cheesy The worst part was that this forced me to build armies in ways different from those actually appealing to me all because of a single item.

The PoK can't force anyone to play differnt in itself. Its a good protective item, but is also on a T3 elf. It might prove a tough nut to crack along with a 1+ AS, but with the other Tricksters Shard, the inability to combine ward and regen, the sniper spells and the lesser role of characters in 8th., does that I wouldn't call it cheesy.

Combined with the Crown of Command it can prove quite troublesome for an opponent though

[Blondshade]

Only on a DE forum.........






Yes, it is OTT cheesy in 7th, now, and until the power creep makes the other books more powerful.

[Tethlis]

There are lots of wargear combinations that are too powerful. The funny thing is that Dwarves have been able to be unkillable for a long time, but noone complains because there's this idea that Dwarves are entitled to being unkillable, whereas Elves (for some reason) are not, and should just fall over dead in a stiff breeze. So when someone whacks on our Lord choices, they expect results, but when someone hits a Dwarf Lord, they expect to fail.

The new army book magic items allow all sorts of ridiculous wargear combinations; as long as everyone has access to them in fairly equal measure, I think it's fine. The Pendant is overpowered given its price, but it's also not alone in the "too good for its points" category.

[Enkiel]

is a T5, 1+ rerollable AS, 4+ ward, stubborn dwarf lord cheesy?

you forgot to add : immune to KB.

[Geist]

I for one do not see it as cheesy, for a few reasons.
First the number of no ST attacks have increased in 8th, so there are more ways to get around the ward. Yes there are very few in hand to hand that ignore wards or work around them, attacks that is. But you still have to get to hand to hand.

Secondly, there are plenty of low st attacks, so getting around the ward is not that hard. If you throw your lord with the pendent into a block of ST4 anything, he has a good odds of being planted after 3 rounds of combat. Horde formation has changed alot, step up has changed alot in other words you have to survive a large number of return attacks.

Now mind you this is of course assuming you have a armour save of 2 or 3 +
If you have a 1+ save then it becomes about 4 rounds of combat.
Thats my two bits on this topic.

[Ebonyphoenix]

Is the Pendant of Khaeleth cheesy? No, in my opinion it is merely absurd.

Same as it is absurd in 7th to deal with High Elves by throwing a unit of goblins at them in combat.

Same as it is absurd to face Lizardmen and not take some form of countermeasure for the probable Stegadon and/or Slann.

Same as it is absurd to throw a unit of T3 knights at a Skaven unit with a Plague Furnace and one of the banners that resulted in auto-wounds at the start of combat.

Things change with each army that comes out. The "all-comers" requirements alter each time an army is released with different tricks than it had before. The fact that people persist in trying to defeat an army in the same method that hasn't worked the past several times leads me to a lack of concern. Especially when it has been explained to them that they need to avoid doing it.

I can see where my opinion seems slightly harsh. This opinion is largely due to the fact that I've explained strategies to my gaming group and they continue to complain due to being unable to deal with one model that isn't even winning combats (High Elf BSBs), killing any large number of foes (insert Chaos Lord here), or playing havok with a unit (Daemon's Siren Song).

I will conceed that the various "Roadblock"/"Unkillable" builds are probably cheesy, but then again each race and player has their favorite build. Some are killy while some are survivable instead. Ours just goes to one extreme on the spectrum. Cheesy? No. Absurd? Yes.

[Tethlis]

Things change with each army that comes out. The "all-comers" requirements alter each time an army is released with different tricks than it had before. The fact that people persist in trying to defeat an army in the same method that hasn't worked the past several times leads me to a lack of concern. Especially when it has been explained to them that they need to avoid doing it.

Agreed. I frequently find myself frustrated at tournaments or other competitive events, where a player brings a list that isn't suited for a take-all-comers environment, or else is simply ignorant of the race he is fighting, and then proceeds to complain, whine, and moan when he runs into a unit or item that gives him trouble. In my opinion, one part of the game is making sure you have a solution in your list for the major problems you're likely to come across. In 7th and 8th edition, that includes Lords choices that are difficult to kill.