Reaper Bolt throwers
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Reaper Bolt throwers
Are reaper bolt throwers so good in 8th? I've been thinking, they are expensive and can't do all that much killing...I mean we usually pay 200 for a pair, that is 12 S4 shots, something most units can shrug of especially if they are tough, and if they aren't very tough there are enough of them to ignore the shots !
I think shooting is left better to a couple of squads of RxBmen, and a lifetaker, and spend more points on Black Guard, cold one knights, a cauldron, or maybe a second nasty hydra and suchlike, and perhaps only one or no RBTs.
Any thoughts on the position and usefulness of RBTs in this edition and current state of warhammer?
I think shooting is left better to a couple of squads of RxBmen, and a lifetaker, and spend more points on Black Guard, cold one knights, a cauldron, or maybe a second nasty hydra and suchlike, and perhaps only one or no RBTs.
Any thoughts on the position and usefulness of RBTs in this edition and current state of warhammer?
- Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
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You basically summarized most of the reasons that players don't like them.
Add in the fact that they only have two crew, and hence only two wounds, and you'll see why they are so unpopular. A good salvo of arrows, crossbow bolts or (even worse) poisoned shots will drop a bolt thrower easily, and suddenly you've lost your expensive, sub par warmachine.
That being said, the high-Strength single shot is nice against monsters or eagle/pegasus mounted flying characters, and the reliability of the multi-shot is nice, but not for the points we are currently paying for them. 2 Bolt Throwers, or 20 Witch Elves? I know which one I would rather spend the points on.
I don't think I will ever field mine in 8th edition, unless their rules are changed or I find myself playing a game so big that I run out of every other model in the list (and even then I would probably proxy rather than take them.)
I do love the models, and I think that a long formation of crossbowmen and a pair of bolt throwers looks beautifully sinister on the tabletop, but that might be their only redeeming trait right now.
Add in the fact that they only have two crew, and hence only two wounds, and you'll see why they are so unpopular. A good salvo of arrows, crossbow bolts or (even worse) poisoned shots will drop a bolt thrower easily, and suddenly you've lost your expensive, sub par warmachine.
That being said, the high-Strength single shot is nice against monsters or eagle/pegasus mounted flying characters, and the reliability of the multi-shot is nice, but not for the points we are currently paying for them. 2 Bolt Throwers, or 20 Witch Elves? I know which one I would rather spend the points on.
I don't think I will ever field mine in 8th edition, unless their rules are changed or I find myself playing a game so big that I run out of every other model in the list (and even then I would probably proxy rather than take them.)
I do love the models, and I think that a long formation of crossbowmen and a pair of bolt throwers looks beautifully sinister on the tabletop, but that might be their only redeeming trait right now.
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they are still listed as having 3 Wounds. They have strong points and weak points.
Cons:
1: Fairly Expensive. (I actually at this point note we have the whopping 2 Rare choices, and all our units are expensive because... well, because we're not Skaven or Goblins.)
2: D3 attacks to a horde unit or something damage absorbing (eg: hitting a mass of Ogre Bulls that haven't been tenderized prior) is NOT going to clear the room or even in moderate ways thin the herd some times.
3: More Units available. 10 Corsair is more valuable because of time it buys you than 1 WM (as Tethlis mentioned)
Pros:
1: they ignore AS. period. That means that you have one less save to worry about, that means that Scaly Skin isn't as effective, and suddenly the guys who are 0+ and 1+ Armour saves just take either 1-3 wounds or a nice volley of 6.
2: S4 isn't much to ooh and aaah about, but 6 S4 attacks CAN be bad for anything T3 (such as: anything elven, most humans, skaven).
3: Cover fire.
Cons:
1: Fairly Expensive. (I actually at this point note we have the whopping 2 Rare choices, and all our units are expensive because... well, because we're not Skaven or Goblins.)
2: D3 attacks to a horde unit or something damage absorbing (eg: hitting a mass of Ogre Bulls that haven't been tenderized prior) is NOT going to clear the room or even in moderate ways thin the herd some times.
3: More Units available. 10 Corsair is more valuable because of time it buys you than 1 WM (as Tethlis mentioned)
Pros:
1: they ignore AS. period. That means that you have one less save to worry about, that means that Scaly Skin isn't as effective, and suddenly the guys who are 0+ and 1+ Armour saves just take either 1-3 wounds or a nice volley of 6.
2: S4 isn't much to ooh and aaah about, but 6 S4 attacks CAN be bad for anything T3 (such as: anything elven, most humans, skaven).
3: Cover fire.
Oderint dum Metuant.
- Dalamar
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they are still listed as having 3 Wounds. They have strong points and weak points.
The W value of the machine itself doesn't matter anymore. Only the number of crew counts... which is 2 for elven machines.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
- Lord damian valar
- Cold One Knight
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Reapers will in my book allways be a viable choice. When I make a list I do not only look at what a unit can do, but also what my oponents perceive it can do.
Reapers adds something that no other unit in our book can do. They give large ranged threat on the battlefield, forcing your oponent to react to them. This is a big deal and can be used to great advantage.
Also, the fact that they have but two wounds is not that much of a big deal I think. The biggest threats against warmachines in general (like scouts and fast cav) will kill a 3 wound warmachine almost just as easily.
the wonder about our Reapers is also the choice of how you fire. 12 str 4 ap shots hitting on 3/4+ will seriously damage or decimate most smaller units of fast cav / scouts / elite units / chariots and even knights.
2 single str 6 , no armor save shots puts threat to any large critters like monsters, dragons, peg characters, etc.
My prediction is that as 8th evolves, more and more reapers will re-enter the table!
Reapers adds something that no other unit in our book can do. They give large ranged threat on the battlefield, forcing your oponent to react to them. This is a big deal and can be used to great advantage.
Also, the fact that they have but two wounds is not that much of a big deal I think. The biggest threats against warmachines in general (like scouts and fast cav) will kill a 3 wound warmachine almost just as easily.
the wonder about our Reapers is also the choice of how you fire. 12 str 4 ap shots hitting on 3/4+ will seriously damage or decimate most smaller units of fast cav / scouts / elite units / chariots and even knights.
2 single str 6 , no armor save shots puts threat to any large critters like monsters, dragons, peg characters, etc.
My prediction is that as 8th evolves, more and more reapers will re-enter the table!
I agree with Tethlis, one other thing that has affected my RBTs in this addition is the increase in terrain which gives units more things to hide behind. And against the large infantry units which I find myself so often in dire need of thinning out they do very little, I would rather have RXBs. I haven't found the big gribbly monsters of the kind I can shoot at with my RBT and kill to be much of a problem, it is the large units of troops that I need thinned down. Knights are still a good target for RBTs, but cavalry has taken a hit in this edition and most knights not looking to eat the bolt thrower will stay the hell away from it. I doubt I will field RBTs whatsoever until they get a considerable drop in cost. If this is not straying too far OT, what do people think would be a reasonable price for our RBT?
Veni, Vidi, Voro!!!
All things perish, this is the law of existence, accept your suffering and your mortality, only by using this truth, can you transcend it.
All things perish, this is the law of existence, accept your suffering and your mortality, only by using this truth, can you transcend it.
The Over prized-ness of our Bolt Throwers is the price we pay for the low cost of our Hydra. When they balance out, our Rare choices are well priced.
The one thing to consider with the RBT is that it can do something that nothing else in our army is capable of - high strength long range shots. However, I tend to find that my shooting is terrible when using these, and always roll 1 or 2 to hit. I think that's more the dice hating my RBT though.
The multi shot is nice, and may even be 100 points worth of nice if it weren't for the fact that it's made of glass.
While Crossbows are better at multishot fire, they will struggle at range, especially if they have to move to get into line of fire, whereas the RBT will only need 3s before cover modifiers, to hit. Also remember that those strength 4 hits are at -2 armour, so are better at punching through armour than Crossbows are.
I plan on using two in my 2500 point force for two reasons:
1) I love the model. It still looks awesome
2) It means I can upgrade from 2000 to 2500 without having to buy more models.
For purely tactical reasons, I'd say it just isn't worth it. For the same price I could get 20 crossbowmen, which are not only good at shooting, but can also perform reasonably well in combat.
The one thing to consider with the RBT is that it can do something that nothing else in our army is capable of - high strength long range shots. However, I tend to find that my shooting is terrible when using these, and always roll 1 or 2 to hit. I think that's more the dice hating my RBT though.
The multi shot is nice, and may even be 100 points worth of nice if it weren't for the fact that it's made of glass.
While Crossbows are better at multishot fire, they will struggle at range, especially if they have to move to get into line of fire, whereas the RBT will only need 3s before cover modifiers, to hit. Also remember that those strength 4 hits are at -2 armour, so are better at punching through armour than Crossbows are.
I plan on using two in my 2500 point force for two reasons:
1) I love the model. It still looks awesome
2) It means I can upgrade from 2000 to 2500 without having to buy more models.
For purely tactical reasons, I'd say it just isn't worth it. For the same price I could get 20 crossbowmen, which are not only good at shooting, but can also perform reasonably well in combat.
- Dalamar
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50 points at the very best.
Goblin Bolt Thrower costs 35 with 3 T3 crew
Dwarf Bolt Thrower costs 45 with 3 T4 crew (and I believe for 10 extra points can be made S7)
Maybe 60 if we get 3rd crewmember.
at under 24" (lets be honest here, how many shots do you really get at over 24" in this edition unless you go first?)
10 RxBs cost the same as bolt thrower.
Assuming they didn't move (Bolt Thrower can't even attempt to shoot after moving, and sometimes it's a good thing to move) they hit on 5+
that's 6.6 hits.
Assuming they're shooting at rather standard T3 5+ save infantry, they do 2.7 or 3 wounds after saves.
Bolt Thrower doing multi-shot at the same target would do:
4 hits which would translate into 2.6 or 3 wounds with no saves... we're at pretty much the same average, with advantage for crossbows if we don't round it.
But Bolt Throwers are supposed to deal with monsters right? Lets shoot one of the scary things, the Hydra.
10 crossbowmen:
6.6 hits, translating into 0.37 wounds after all saves.
Single Bolt:
0.66 of a hit going into 0.22 wounds, which on average has a chance of doing two wounds, so lets say 0.44 of a wound.
Here the bolt thrower has a very slight advatage.
I will take 8 extra wounds and an ability to actually suvive war machine hunters as well as capability of supporting combats in the late game once you're out of targets to shoot at any day,.
Goblin Bolt Thrower costs 35 with 3 T3 crew
Dwarf Bolt Thrower costs 45 with 3 T4 crew (and I believe for 10 extra points can be made S7)
Maybe 60 if we get 3rd crewmember.
at under 24" (lets be honest here, how many shots do you really get at over 24" in this edition unless you go first?)
10 RxBs cost the same as bolt thrower.
Assuming they didn't move (Bolt Thrower can't even attempt to shoot after moving, and sometimes it's a good thing to move) they hit on 5+
that's 6.6 hits.
Assuming they're shooting at rather standard T3 5+ save infantry, they do 2.7 or 3 wounds after saves.
Bolt Thrower doing multi-shot at the same target would do:
4 hits which would translate into 2.6 or 3 wounds with no saves... we're at pretty much the same average, with advantage for crossbows if we don't round it.
But Bolt Throwers are supposed to deal with monsters right? Lets shoot one of the scary things, the Hydra.
10 crossbowmen:
6.6 hits, translating into 0.37 wounds after all saves.
Single Bolt:
0.66 of a hit going into 0.22 wounds, which on average has a chance of doing two wounds, so lets say 0.44 of a wound.
Here the bolt thrower has a very slight advatage.
I will take 8 extra wounds and an ability to actually suvive war machine hunters as well as capability of supporting combats in the late game once you're out of targets to shoot at any day,.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
In 7th edition they supplied good counter-battery fire. When I used two or three I could severely injure or destroy one of my opponent's artillery pieces every round with concentrated fire. In 8th, I'm not so sure this will work as well.
When 8th edition first came out, an extensive thread developed regarding the increases or decreased survivability of our RBTs. This is from memory, so I may be remembering the results incorrectly, but I sincerely doubt the results are reversed.
Against S3 or less shots, 8th ed RBTs are more survivable (requires more hits).
Against S4 shots, survivability was the same (requires same number of hits)
Against S5 or better, survivability was worse (requires less hits in 8th ed.)
These calculations were without any other modifiers, such as armor piercing. The same calculations should work in reverse using our units for counter-battery fire.
Comparing the cost, however, one can get 20 shots out of rxb-elves versus the 6 from an RBT with more wounds, but less susceptibility to area of effect attacks.
Pick your flavor, choose your poison - it almost comes down to what you expect to be playing against as to which will eke out the other.
When 8th edition first came out, an extensive thread developed regarding the increases or decreased survivability of our RBTs. This is from memory, so I may be remembering the results incorrectly, but I sincerely doubt the results are reversed.
Against S3 or less shots, 8th ed RBTs are more survivable (requires more hits).
Against S4 shots, survivability was the same (requires same number of hits)
Against S5 or better, survivability was worse (requires less hits in 8th ed.)
These calculations were without any other modifiers, such as armor piercing. The same calculations should work in reverse using our units for counter-battery fire.
Comparing the cost, however, one can get 20 shots out of rxb-elves versus the 6 from an RBT with more wounds, but less susceptibility to area of effect attacks.
Pick your flavor, choose your poison - it almost comes down to what you expect to be playing against as to which will eke out the other.
"The strength you normally use is like the small visible segment of an iceberg..." Tohei-sensai
"Few problems can't be solved by the judicious application of brute force" Asikari
"Few problems can't be solved by the judicious application of brute force" Asikari
- Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
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I think it's important that the RBT, even with its high point cost, is not a terrible choice. Our book is excellent, and we're fortunate in the sense that we don't really have bad choices; everything has a value and a role.
However, that being said, certain units within our list are much better than others. It's not that I don't like RBTs... Before 8th edition, I ran them in every Dark Elf list I have ever created since the Storm of Chaos.
However, they just don't provide enough value for their points now, and I'd rather spend those 200 points on a different unit.
However, that being said, certain units within our list are much better than others. It's not that I don't like RBTs... Before 8th edition, I ran them in every Dark Elf list I have ever created since the Storm of Chaos.
However, they just don't provide enough value for their points now, and I'd rather spend those 200 points on a different unit.
When 4th ed first came out, all BTs were priced at some fairly low level like about 30 points plus crew - meaning ours was 50. About 5th or 6th High Elf book, the whingeing from non-elf players was so loud that GW just arbitrarily doubled the total cost of elven repeating BTs to 100, whilst leaving all the single-shotters at the lower cost. I can't imagine why there was so much bleating, as the multi-shot isn't all that much better than single - all you're really paying for is the versatility.
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8th ed stats (W/L/D)
DE: 1/0/0
DoC: 2/1/0
Empire: 0/1/0
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8th ed stats (W/L/D)
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- Dalamar
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Repeater Bolt Thrower stayed at 100 points since 5th edition... but it was a completely different war machine.
6th-7th-8th edition:
Single Shot - 1 Shot, S6, No Save, Rank Piercing
Salvo - 6 Shots, S4, -2 Save
5th edition (and possibly earlier, but I haven't played so far back):
Single Shot - 1 Shot, S6, No Save, Rank Piercing
Salvo - 4 Shots, S4, No Save, Rank Piercing
If it still had 5th Ed Rules I'd say it's worth about 100 points.
6th-7th-8th edition:
Single Shot - 1 Shot, S6, No Save, Rank Piercing
Salvo - 6 Shots, S4, -2 Save
5th edition (and possibly earlier, but I haven't played so far back):
Single Shot - 1 Shot, S6, No Save, Rank Piercing
Salvo - 4 Shots, S4, No Save, Rank Piercing
If it still had 5th Ed Rules I'd say it's worth about 100 points.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
I remember the 5th edition book I had listed RBTs as 50 points, but an FAQ came out upping their cost to 100 points. I also remember the single shot at a Strength 5, not 6. Otherwise, my memory is the same as others.
In my opinion, it should be in the 60 to 75 points range as it is now compared with other bolt throwers.
In my opinion, it should be in the 60 to 75 points range as it is now compared with other bolt throwers.
"The strength you normally use is like the small visible segment of an iceberg..." Tohei-sensai
"Few problems can't be solved by the judicious application of brute force" Asikari
"Few problems can't be solved by the judicious application of brute force" Asikari
they are overcosted for what they do....they should be about 60 to 70 points max. Also, in this edition longrange shooting which is their advantage has taken a ding, with armies covering ground much closer....at the latest, close combat is joined by turn 3, while in 7th we could march block allowing more turns to be spent hammering the enemies with the RBTs making them more worth their points.
yes, too much points in there, did they cost less I think they could be a good bait for the opponent, distracting their light troops from the main action but for now, it's just an easy reward for scouts or vanguards
back in time they were at 50 points, with 4 S5 rank piercing shots, hum ^^
We do need some kind of 'battery chief' (as the dwarf engineer) to take them to a correct level
back in time they were at 50 points, with 4 S5 rank piercing shots, hum ^^
We do need some kind of 'battery chief' (as the dwarf engineer) to take them to a correct level
Doctors say my head is so full of things that there's no place left for the brain
Well, I faced a High Elf player at the weekend who used two Eagle Claws (exactly the same as RBT) against me with brutal effect. He had deployed on a hill at the very rear of the board and tore into my Hydra, and then my ranks on subsequent turns. The Bolt Throwers did something that nothing else in his list could do - hit my table edge from the very first turn.
Granted, I could take each one out with a well placed fireball, but I had other targets in the form of his archer units and Phoenix guard who were taking a heavier toll. Now, some of this was a problem with my own target prioritisation, but what this also says is that I was not targeting his Bolt Throwers as I had riper targets. They were then able to pick off units from afar because of their range on the board. Not doing huge damage, but doing it from afar, and with a 360 arc without any penalties for reforming to bring their firing arc to bear.
of course, High Elves get don't have as good an option for high volume firepower as we do, so this does need to be taken into account when validating their use in a Dark Elf army as opposed to a High Elf list.
Also, one of the games I played was Battle for the Pass. I would have welcomed some long range 48" firepower there. All I had were my full power fireballs, which he dispelled on most instances.
So no, I wouldn't say that they are worth their points, but they do add a degree of versatility. I wouldn't use them under 2000 points, but planning on including a couple at 2500 to give me another tactical option during a battle.
Granted, I could take each one out with a well placed fireball, but I had other targets in the form of his archer units and Phoenix guard who were taking a heavier toll. Now, some of this was a problem with my own target prioritisation, but what this also says is that I was not targeting his Bolt Throwers as I had riper targets. They were then able to pick off units from afar because of their range on the board. Not doing huge damage, but doing it from afar, and with a 360 arc without any penalties for reforming to bring their firing arc to bear.
of course, High Elves get don't have as good an option for high volume firepower as we do, so this does need to be taken into account when validating their use in a Dark Elf army as opposed to a High Elf list.
Also, one of the games I played was Battle for the Pass. I would have welcomed some long range 48" firepower there. All I had were my full power fireballs, which he dispelled on most instances.
So no, I wouldn't say that they are worth their points, but they do add a degree of versatility. I wouldn't use them under 2000 points, but planning on including a couple at 2500 to give me another tactical option during a battle.
- Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Kadahn wrote:So no, I wouldn't say that they are worth their points, but they do add a degree of versatility. I wouldn't use them under 2000 points, but planning on including a couple at 2500 to give me another tactical option during a battle.
A good post here.
I do think this highlights the point that our bolt throwers aren't bad, they are just difficult to justify sometimes compared to other unit choice. An opponent like High Elves or Dark Elves is there ideal matchup though; relatively little counter-battery fire, relatively fewer units to come in and overwhelm the backline, much better targets for their shooting and magic, and a S4, Armor Piercing shot can do some significant damage.
- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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I love my reapers. Maybe they are a tiny bit overpriced but not so much as to reduce their value to some lists. They are no easier to take out that before by any significant margin (unless against poison). They give great long range fire S4 which helps against T5 units like Aboms and can sit deep on the board which our other shooting can't this helps divert the enemy. Single bolt is also great against Peg riders who are becoming a more frequent sight on the table these days.
They may not be for every build but that goes for alot of units.
They may not be for every build but that goes for alot of units.
- Lord damian valar
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I do not agree with how on automation Reapers be compared to Xbowmen. they are entirely different units with different uses.
Simply saying that 10 xbowmen are better then a reaper without any further comment, except having more wounds, is saying nothing really.
there are situations where this is true, but also many where it is not. Its like saying 20 skaven slaves with slings are better then 10 dark elf xbowmen, since the DE only have 10 wounds.
Simply saying that 10 xbowmen are better then a reaper without any further comment, except having more wounds, is saying nothing really.
there are situations where this is true, but also many where it is not. Its like saying 20 skaven slaves with slings are better then 10 dark elf xbowmen, since the DE only have 10 wounds.