A 'new' viable Assassin combination?

Dangerous Beans · Post by **Dangerous Beans** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:47 pm

Couldn't see anywhere else this was posted but...

I was thinking about Assassin uses other than the Rending Star/Manbane combo, and thought - well, one way to 'protect' your assassin is to have him in a challenge? He could make his points back by throwing CR through overkill - right?

He'd be best supporting a unit that can negate steadfast: ie. spearmen.

His aim would be to add the extra CR required to 'tip' the enemy unit over the edge by beating up their champions, but also kit him out to take on characters too.

Assassin: 161
Rune of Khaine, Dark Venom, Touch of Death
2 Hand Weapons.

30+ Spearmen (Full Command, Banner of Murder?)

Probably more expensive than slamming a unit of knights or chariot into the same melee to support the Spears, but then that requires adequete tactical situations: the assassin just does his job from within the same unit and comes up cheaper than a Dreadlord.

Would work best vs horde formations I guess (wide files, less ranks eg. 30-50 so that the spears ranks outnumber them and thus negate steadfast)

The assassin has touch of death to allow killing of characters, though he doesnt necesarily need this.

HOWEVER: the issue with this combo is tricking your opponent into accepting the challenge - the smart thing to do of course is to decline it and then butcher the assassin with other+supporting attacks...

Is he still viable?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:28 am

You're still running into the problem of a 161 point character that is T3 and has no armour. That's a big gamble for a close-combat character. Sure he may kill 3, 4, or even 5 enemy rank and file. But with the step-up rule, he'll die to Gnoblars. Let's not even talk about what would happen against something decent like Chaos Warriors...

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:45 am

i actually played a list where i used this as additional protection for my sorcerres dagger bunker, if any big meanies get to you (think dragons, griffons and the like) or knights i'd reveal him and challange or deliver a world of hurt, it came against a high elf dragon and the result was brutal, i killed the high elf, got a total of 8 combat ress (2 kb will do that) and got killed by the high elf so the dragon couldn't do nothing, it had to take a breaktest on double 1 failed, fled and got overrun. although conditional, its not bad for a 162 point character.

Malus99 · Post by **Malus99** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:09 pm

I think in most cases if an opponent sees that assassin they will either decline the challenge and send a character to the back (or if they don't have one then nothing will happen) and then slaughter your assassin with step-up or accept with a champion if they don't want their killy character sent to the back, in which case your assassin gains your unit 2 CR and the killy character probably butchers your unit and earns far more. I think it is quite a situational build, but could have its uses. Personally I will stick with using your combination but with Black Lotus and use it for character killing alone, aside from the manbane/stars option I think this is just about the only practical use of assassins now, which is good IMO.

I don't try to protect assassins, for me he is a one shot wonder sort of guy, he gets into combat, appears in B2B with an enemy character, slaughters them with KB (black lotus increases the chances of KB two-fold, firstly it replaces normal poison so you get more rolls to wound, and secondly allows you to re-roll to-wound rolls of 1, AHW RoK BL ToD assassin has a very good chance of getting KB) and then dies to return attacks.

Most people will not let you challenge with assassins most of the time, and will only challenge it with a champion to save their character, but if you keep a champion in your unit to accept challenges from enemy champions, accept challenges from characters you want to kill with the assassin, or otherwise just attack him in B2B the enemy character must face the assassin's attacks, but if you want to challenge to save your 'sass, most times it won't work and if it does, you have to wonder why...

Carolus · Post by **Carolus** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:39 pm

WoC units with champions but no character comes to mind, since they can't decline challenges afaik. VERY situational though

The virgin forest · Post by **The virgin forest** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:06 pm

Dangerous Beans wrote:Is he still viable?

Viable: Yes - I usually save the points from the Dark Venom though.

Ultracompetitive: No

In 8th units rule the battlefield and fighty characters aren't that big of a deal, but then again, the assassin can do a whole lot of good to shift the odds in your favour, like when you face a horde of empire halberdiers with hatred from a warrior priest, a quick assassination later, and those halberdiers suddenly aren't that resentful of our squishy elves.

Remember, it really doesn't matter whether you lose your 150 point assassin, if your 300 point unit breaks another 300 point unit. Also be thankful if your opponent throws a large number of attacks after your assassin, he'll likely hit less because of the assassins WS9 and the assassin will generate a maximum of +2CR for him

Besides assassins have the rule of cool, they're NINJAS for Khaines sake

-

I always try to stick an assassin in my lists, though I loathe the fact that it usually is at the expense of a unit of witches, shades or other very useful units, he has yet to disappoint me

Carolus · Post by **Carolus** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:36 pm

I tried the manbane+star assassin a couple of days ago, first time using an assassin in 8th. He won me the game by jumping around on the flank and making 2 wraiths + banshee and 5 black knights + lord chase him for 2-3 turns before the banshee screamed at him for being a pain and he obediently stopped. Not before killing a couple of knights and wounding the lord twice from afar.

Will definately be fielding more assassins and trying different combos, got a game on sunday I might try this one out in. If I do I will report back!

Malekii · Post by **Malekii** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:41 pm

If you take the Dark Venom and replace it with black lotus ( the poison that allows you re-roll ones to wound) and you have probably the most common assassin build. Also assassains are glass cannons. The strike first strike well but a mere two wounding hits will kill them so they are best for taking out skirmishers and warmachines and warmachine hunters.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:36 am

if I take a Sin, I usually just make sure to use the KB blessing from the CoB. The Hatred usually covers up for the re-rolling, the Unit itself is the shield (I mean, honestly: challenge. run away.)

Extra Attacks are fun, Manbane does nice work- there are a lot of fun things you can even do with the Steed.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:42 am

L1qw1d, I honestly can't make heads or tails of your post. I'm assuming a "Sin" is grade three for "Assassin"? Don't understand the "challenge. run away." comment - should I challenge and then run away? And who's steed are you referring to?!

*is confused*

Dutchoven · Post by **Dutchoven** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:33 am

For me the AHW, RoK, Manbane, work for me. Most likely your going to get 6 attacks and if you have a CoB bless his unit with KB right before they get into battle with (hopefully the enemies general) a unit that contains a strong hero.

Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s and Kb on 6s that's not to shabby. Sure he cost a pretty penny but if he takes out a 500pt chaos lord he was worth every penny not to mention, he cant die until next round when attacks are allocated against him but hopefully he can take out 6 more guys with him.

Carolus · Post by **Carolus** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:10 am

phierlihy wrote:L1qw1d, I honestly can't make heads or tails of your post. I'm assuming a "Sin" is grade three for "Assassin"? Don't understand the "challenge. run away." comment - should I challenge and then run away? And who's steed are you referring to?!

*is confused*

I think he's referring to the Assassin item Cloak of Twilight which is a bound-spell of the Steed of Shadows spell.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:08 pm

yep. and Sin has been a general slang expression (by people older than myself as I was growing up) for Assassin in the area I grew up. So yes. I DID learn it in grade 3. I have also used it for any Assassin that fights particularly dirty for about 30 years now. Thanks there.

Basically, Dutch Oven stated what was I saying.

I generally only use an Assassin for a challenge (though I have found this PAINFUL versus Chakax.), or single installment units that can't really fight back without getting near losing the amount of points it removes if it were to beat my Assassin.

This having been stated, many players don't know how to properly use the Steed of Shadows, let alone how to PLAN for it, so swapping for another Infantry unit as fast as possible can make for an entertaining shell game when you have a Master in Blood Armour.

And if you have any additional queries, please feel free to PM me instead of insulting my education

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:55 am

I appologize to you L1qw1d if you took my post personally. I have no knowledge of your level of education or lack there of and do not presume in any fashion what it might or might not be. That being said, before I replied I did check the listed common acronyms used on the site here and didn't see a "Sin" but while browsing the list it occured to me what you might have meant.

I still don't understand your "challenge, run away" comment. Also not sure what a "single installment unit" is? Also confused but this...

let alone how to PLAN for it, so swapping for another Infantry unit as fast as possible can make for an entertaining shell game when you have a Master in Blood Armour.

I'm not PMing you as I assume others are equally confused. Please clarify!

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:33 am

No problem. Sin is more... vernacular slang.

Anyhoo: many people don't plan for the effects of Shadow. A shell game is a misdirection. like 3 card Monte- the person is told to look for an object which is plainly hidden (3 card monte: red queen. placed in the centre of the table; game of shells is just a small ball, better if red, under cans or something to cover it) there is a shuffle, and the object is gone. no matter what cup you flip, or card you turn. the person plays upon the fact that you KNOW where he put the object you need to retrieve.

Because he hid it in his palm.

So Challenge. Run Away. and single installments... single installments would be things like Mortars, or something we know we can HIT and use the manbane to take out fairly easily that can be separated and picked off @ leisure. I didn't want to use terms like batteries or the like because they aren't specifically warmachine hunters.

challenge and run away is good. you challenge someone, with WS 10, and S (*2T) and additional attacks from RoK, (and Hatred), I've come off with 2 Overkill in a Challenge about 3 times out of 5. The statistics may vary because dice has no memory.

the run away is important because of the GLASS part of the phrase glass cannon (which I would have thought would have been more confusing than the phrase shell game).

With SoS, you can swap spaces, even in combat but after the challenge, with an armoured character (or technically ANY infantry, as that is the descriptor used, but since you can't blend units Lords and Heroes are easier to simply explain).

The other option is to sit in the back. Let the unit he has hidden in chew them up, and then come back in and play clean up- the trick that develops can be considered "the Long Game", where you use him when you find out you will win inevitably.

The SoS is something I've only used twice. Got me killed the first time, but the second time, I realised that I swapped into a unit that was closer to an installation (a cannon to specify). I bounced using the SoS right after again and he survived most of the game, and the units he had been in had survived albeit SLIM, as well (this was before people realised that you had to kill the last guy for points, so I still lost -.-)

If you use an Assassin, it's a tool the same way the CoB is. It requires a certain synergy to use him efficiently (which I admit to not always having).

I've picked up smatterings of a lot of different abbreviations, slang, idioms, and turns of phrases. Some because of my job, my love of learning new languages and code, or my family's military service, some because I've used other armies, systems, etc or gamed for a long time or just hung around with the wrong people (though I still find it hilarious when my wife asks how much 4 CoC will cost and I say 400 because to US it's a Chariot, to them it's Cavalry lol)

A 'new' viable Assassin combination?

A 'new' viable Assassin combination?

Re: A 'new' viable Assassin combination?