New player, need HELP!!

[Jvh792]

I just played my first game of warhammer ever. I lost to a veteran (15 years) skaven player. He dominates every one at the store week in week out. I lost fairly spectacularly. Came on strong at the end, but too little, way to late.

He runs (more or less):
1 Hell pit abomination
50 slaves
50 slaves
30 clanrats w/ bsb and general
40 plague bearers (horde formation).
1 plague catapult thingy
30 clanrats w/ gray seer and lvl 1 magic rat-man
30 giant rats with slave driver rats and squeal character
6 gutter runners

What I'm asking for is the most competitive army list possible for 2.5k points. Plus, I'd also really appreciate any advice on tactics versus skaven. I'm new, but I can beat this guy. I really appreciate any feedback to either request. Thanks!

[L1qw1d]

welcome to the (un)hallowed halls of D.Net!

This is just me, but I'd tie up the 2 sets of clanrats with Core, support fire on skirmishers, and HPA.

For magic, I'd throw down Fire, Dark and/or Death.

A hydra and a RBT for things. Cavalry and BGuards or counter poisons are good.

What do YOU have? You're playing your game when you come for a fight- not his.

[Vaari]

Veteran Skaven player with Slave Hordes (throws toys in disgust!)

We all play to our strengths and your opponent is doing so nicely. So you need to be a good little druchii and do the same.

Your never going to match those numbers or be able to play toe to toe. If I were you I would ask your fellow DElf players at your FLGS if you could borrow some mini's for a game, stating your intent (if he is the store king, I'm sure they won't mind betting on a slim chance if the rewards for "ho ho ho" are high enough). Right, enough meta, here is my not-so-bright-but-may-work idea.

Unkillable Dark Pegasus lord - you can find him in the DRAICH. Aoes+DbG+CoC
Cauldron of Blood- our Best Bsb.

Harpy Spam : 5x5 Harpies. Yep. Those ugly units need to be tied up, denying him the movement he wants is crucial. If his slaves are stuck in the mud due to harpy road blocks and non optimal flee directions, you can clusterfudge his movement. Push them into each other, terrain - whatever you can do to annoy.

Magic : Dark and Fire. Fulminating Cage to lock down those Plague monks, Black Horror/Blade wind are your friends.

Rare: Usually Hydra is the obvious choice. However in game of avoidance/tie down, our nerfed RBoltThrowers may work for you. x4 of them should shoot down the HPAbomination if your lord hasn't tied it up and once the enemy is quagmired those volleys will add up.

Core:
Corsairs (1) x30 w/ RHB and the Flaming Banner. Stand and Shoot should put the hurt on any unit.

Corsairs (2) x30 w/ AHW and Sea Serpent Standard. Many, many attacks.

So in summary. Tie it all up, shoot it down with Magic Missles and the RBTs. Wait till T2-3 ,lure a unit into charging Corsairs (1), flank with Corsairs (2).

I'm sure the others that frequent the forums will give your far greater and sound advice, but I think my idea would be a lot of fun, if it worked that is.

Welcome to the forums and enjoy your warhammering!

[Tethlis]

Does the "Stormbanner" ring a bell? Did he have a magic item which prevented your units from flying, and made your shooting -2 for part of the game?

Also, would you be willing to post the list you used for your last game? That would give us an idea of what units you're familiar with using, what you like using as part of your standard list, etc.

We could come up with some hardcore, silly, competitive list that doesn't do you any good at all if you don't have the models or are unfamiliar with how to use the units.

Your opponent has a lot of models, but is actually lacking significantly in killing power. No weapon teams, no Furnace, little shooting, no Rat Ogres, and only one HPA means that you can dominate the fight if you can come to grips with all the models he has.

My advice:
-Deploy rivers and forests near your deployment zone, using them as a barrier. Skaven units that pass through them will be easier to break, and will lose Steadfast. This means that you can wade into them, fight them, kill a bunch of rats, and run them down and they won't be Stubborn against you.

-Don't deploy in the middle of the board; deploy off-center instead. He has so many models that you can focus on overwhelming one flank, using your most deadly troops. If you take plenty of Spearmen or Corsairs, and keep them supported with a nearby battle standard bearer, they can easily hold for a while against massed rats, and you can box the Skaven in and prevent them from maneuvering effectively.

-Prioritize sending your best troops at the Skaven units that are actually worth Victory Points. You can kill every slave model on the table, but that won't do you much good since they aren't worth many Victory Points. Skaven characters, warmachines and monsters are where the real Victory Points are. Particular attention should be paid to weakening and killing the Hell Pit Abomination as soon as possible; if it reaches your lines with the support of massed Skaven regiments, you'll probably lose. Magic/Shooting/a quick decisive charge are key for fighting the HPA, and try to work in some Flaming Attacks to negate its Regeneration and prevent it from coming back to life (as per the Too Horrible to Die special rule).

Skaven characters provide Leadership and can be durable, but are generally fairly weak in combat against our stronger melee units. The regiments housing these characters are your best bet; combined charges using an elite regiment, and some combination of chariot/Hydra/combat characters/Cold One Knights will role over most Skaven units eventually, but you need to have time to hack through all those rats. The Plague Priests are also vulnerable; horde formation for a unit that's WS3 with no armor and only S3 attacks seems silly to me. A charge against that unit with ranked-up Spearmen and a hitting-oriented, durable unit like a Hydra will override their Steadfast quickly and provide you with easy Victory Points.

That being said, you have to protect your elite troops long enough to give them time to work and kill the Skaven's valuable units, so a strong Core presence is really crucial, and units like the Hydra or a character with Crown of Command can all tie up Skaven regiments on their own and halt their advance.

The Plageclaw catapult can be dispatched with harpies or shades; it will be difficult for him to protect it if he's advancing with all his other units.

Magic can also work nicely for you. The Lore of Shadow, with its Weapon Skill, Movement, Initiative, Strength and Toughness Hexes can easily let you sabotage big Skaven blocks and make them easy to kill. Mindrazor is a deadly tool also.

Death is also a strong lore versus Skaven: its character-sniping spells are lethal, since Skaven cannot use their Strength in Numbers special rule to counter it, and a Grey Seer without a bell will have a hard time surviving it for long.

Dark, from our own armybook, is also great at killing lots of targets. It's also a valid choice.

Your opponent's main weaknesses are that he has no great solution to monsters, monster-riding characters, or cavalry (except for some Skaven magic spells). Keep them alive long enough to deliver combined charges into valuable targets, using infantry for support, and you'll be pleased with the results.

It cannot be underestimated though: Don't let yourself get swarmed, use your Core infantry + terrain to disrupt the Skaven advance, prioritize the Skaven units that are worth Victory Points, dominate his backline with Harpies/Shades, and eliminate the Hell Pit Abomination as fast as you possibly can. If you're not able to fulfill even just one of those goals, there's a good chance you'll lose.

[Jvh792]

Thanks a lot. Ya, I have my own 2.5k force, but that's stretching my models to the last. Money is no issue. I'm broke as heck, but resourceful and good at converting. So assume I have any model at my disposal (plus they are pretty chill about proxies).

He tends to push slaves out front and launch into them w/ artillery. He keeps his BSB and general right behind them, so they are impossible to break. He gets his points off of me from magic, artillery, and his unit of plaugue bearers (51 attacks is pretty good apparently).

So I should tie up slaves with harpies? Question: Won't they get slaughtered in 1 round of combat even against slaves? If so, what's the point? (noob speaking, please help!)

I'm shy to go with the units of 30 corsairs because he uses the horned rat spell and does 4d6 kills w/ no saves. period.

I've thought about MSU or MSE using things like 6 WE's w/ CoB KB blessing as suicide units to hit his general and/or BSB. If I can take on his units without those bonuses I'll slaughter them. Thoughts?

Last thing I swear! What are good special units and sizes to go with?

[Jvh792]

He does have weapons teams. Sorry, plague mortar and warpfire cannon.

Tethlis, that's useful stuff. Thanks. Don't sweat my army list. I want something to build towards. I don't want to invest money in a crappy army list just because its cheap. Like I said, I'm creative.

My problem with prioritizing his high point units is that he uses slaves as an extremely effecting road block to me, relying on his magic and artillery to take out my points trying to get around his flanks and into his clanrat bunkers.

The HPA got into my hydra who did alright taking it down to 2 wounds. (the beast master did the majority of the work!!)

But his curse of the horned rat spell seemed to be decimating one of my units every single turn. How do I counter stat his strat. No lie, he killed at least 1,000 points of my army with the one caster. Thoughts?

[Tethlis]

So I should tie up slaves with harpies? Question: Won't they get slaughtered in 1 round of combat even against slaves? If so, what's the point? (noob speaking, please help!)

I wouldn't suggest tying the slaves up with Harpies, but the Harpies are certainly good for steering other parts of his line away from the fight. In your turn, you can take the Harpies and land right in front of the Skaven regiment. This way, the Skaven unit has no choice but to stop in place, or charge. With the Harpies blocking their way, they have to do one or the other, since they obviously can't move "through" the harpies at all.

When the Skaven player charges, he aligns his unit against the Harpies. This means that you control which direction he'll be facing once he wins. So yes, the Harpies get slaughtered, but your opponent has lost a turn of marching and free movement; you've forced him to charge.

Big deal, you ask. Now you've lost some Harpies. So what? Well, when you win a combat, you can either overrun, or you can hold and Reform. If you've angled your Harpies properly, the Skaven overrun will take them AWAY from the rest of the fight... You can control which direction the Skaven unit will be facing when the fight ends! This potentially lets you get a flank charge if he overruns.

Of course, he might just choose to stop, reform, and face you. Of course, if he does that, then he's lost a full turn of movement! He probably was only able to charge a couple inches, since the Harpies were so close, which means that he spent a turn grinding out a measly 55 point Harpy unit, losing a full turn of movement and helping to halt him in place.

Very useful for controlling enemy movement when you're outnumbered!

As for the big slave screen... Engage it with Spearmen, or some Core choice that has ranks and some killing power (but not too much!) If you you intentionally let the fight drag out between your Warriors and a Slave screen, you can block up the Skaven units behind it for most of the game. You can create an effective roadblock, preventing his units from maneuvering or charging effectively while letting you potentially skirmish and win on the flanks.

I'm shy to go with the units of 30 corsairs because he uses the horned rat spell and does 4d6 kills w/ no saves. period.

Nothing you can do about that spell, which is affectionately known as the Dreaded 13th Spell. There are some tricks you can use to help discourage the Skaven caster, however. A dispel scroll or Feedback Scroll are both great if your opponent doesn't roll double 6s. Also, the Ring of Hotek is great if you get the model with the Ring close enough to the enemy magic user. Every double triggers a roll on the miscast table? Very useful item.

All you can do is try to get to combat quickly, and hope to kill the Greyseer fast or dispel if he fails to reach the casting value. Remember, he can't use more than 6 dice to attempt the spell, and the spell only works on infantry models (nothing else can be affected by it.)

I've thought about MSU or MSE using things like 6 WE's w/ CoB KB blessing as suicide units to hit his general and/or BSB. If I can take on his units without those bonuses I'll slaughter them. Thoughts?

If your opponent lets the Witch Elves get close enough, go for it. Witch Elves aren't a perfect choice, because rolling a lot of Poison results means fewer rolls To Wound, which means fewer dice to roll that critical 6 for Killing Blow. Still, not a bad idea, if your opponent gets careless.

Last thing I swear! What are good special units and sizes to go with?

Black Guard: 20, with full command, Banner of Murder. Crimson Death, Armor of Darkness, Whip of Agony or Ironcurse Icon are popular on the champ.

Cold One Knights: Lots has been written on these guys. They can be 5 or 6 strong for cheap units, or 10-12 strong for durable, hard-hitting mainstay units. For the bigger guys, the unit champion can have Crimson Death or Whip of Agony for hitting power, Potion of Foolhardiness for a cheap option, or Ring of Hotek to mess with enemy magic users. Banner of Hag Graef or Banner of the Eternal Flame are ideal here. Hag Graef will let them re-roll to hit against virtually all opponents, making them very good in subsequent rounds of combat after they lose their lance bonus. Banner of the Eternal Flame lets them kill Hydras and HPAs with ease.

Witch Elves: Either 5-7 strong for small disposable hitting power, or 21-30 strong for a robust and fairly cheap regiment. Banner of Murder or Eternal Flame are popular here, to help them get through armor or Regeneration saves. Witches are great versus Skaven in all their forms. If you're running a big block of them with Cauldron support, they can do well in Horde formation too. A Hag unit champion with Manbane and Flaming Attacks is very scary for Hell Pit Abominations.

Executioners: 30+ strong. They need to be robust, and need to have a Cauldron, so that they can survive long enough to retaliate. Players who use them frequently take them in very big units.

Shades: 5 strong for disposable blocks, 7-10 strong for great shooters and mobile combat units. Dual hand weapons are great, not much else is necessary.

[Jvh792]

[quote="Tethlis"]Black Guard: 20, with full command, Banner of Murder. Crimson Death, Armor of Darkness, Whip of Agony or Ironcurse Icon are popular on the champ.

Foolhardiness -- Hag Graef or Banner of the Eternal Flame -- Hag Graef will let them re-roll to hit against virtually all opponents.[/quote]

I don't own the 8th ed. rulebook. Are there Standards and items that I can use from somewhere else because I don't see them in my DE rulebook. Ironcurse Icon eternal flame banner is particular. I've picked up what eternal flame does. What about Hag Graef? I thought it gave Always Strikes First (ASF?) not reroll missed attacks.

Also, Shades or DR?

What should I do for Characters? Magic? I used Morathy last game. She sounded pretty slick. I think she killed back her points, but I wonder if something else can do the same.

(p.s. why don't my quotes work?)

[L1qw1d]

Can the 13th be cast into melee? You COULD conceivably SPECIFICALLY wait for the 13th and unleash the Crystal of Midnight?

Also: mass effect spells can be FUN.

Slaves don't cause tests when they kick off, but Clanrats DO- aim for them. The point to doing this would be to cause a check in nearby units.

If you do Harps, send them for the war machines and mages before all else. That is one of the funnest first lessons of all

They have a similar stat line in some places to us, but lower Ld in many cases. The lower point costs that he gets for things (example: 90 points for a warp cannon vs Empire's 100) because he can blow points to make them niftier while they are WAY more "jumpy" than most (example: his HPA rolls 3 dice to move, but may end up just flopping around. The aforementioned Cannon is actually twice as likely to misfire than an Emp Cannon)

JV: Ebay the IOB book- many places sell with templates too

I just realised this is like EVIL Island of Blood!

[Diablo]

I don't own the 8th ed. rulebook. Are there Standards and items that I can use from somewhere else because I don't see them in my DE rulebook. Ironcurse Icon eternal flame banner is particular. I've picked up what eternal flame does. What about Hag Graef? I thought it gave Always Strikes First (ASF?) not reroll missed attacks.

Yes thats the problem. 8th edition rule book contains those magic items.
And the thing with rerrols is there too (ASF + higher I than nonASF unit means ASF + rerrols to hit)

What should I do for Characters? Magic? I used Morathy last game. She sounded pretty slick. I think she killed back her points, but I wonder if something else can do the same.

As Tethlis told you. Quite cheap and quite funny (at least for me ) way is 6 witch elves 3x2 since when properly aranged u could direct all 12 poisoned atacks against the character...

Another good way is sorceres with lore of death as lore of death contains a lot of spells for sniping characters.

[Malekii]

A neat trick with a sorceress (preferable Morathi) is to cast soul stealer on a unit of skaven slaves. this will put most sorceress on 4-6 wounds plus kills heaps of slaves.

although what i'm worried about is that plauge monk horde. maybe counter it with a witch elf horde or soul stealer (this spell rocks against scaven).

[Whobetta]

isn't there a rule in 8th though now that when you charge, wipeout an enemy unit then being able to test against LD to REFORM

is that only for Fast Cav or something?


I was playing against TK, he had Chariots that charged killed a harpie unit, then reformed to turn 90 degrees in order to face the would be flank chargers...

just wondering, thanks

[Tethlis]

To all you people who don't own the 8th edition book, but are playing 8th edition...

You should go buy it. Fishing for hints on the rules because you can't be bothered to go out and buy the rulebook isn't a good practice. It's certainly expensive, but as has been mentioned, the miniature version from the Isle of Blood kit is available for pretty cheap on ebay. If you're spending enough money to enjoy the hobby, you can probably fork out enough cash to buy the rulebook for it.

Yes, 8th edition gives you a number of options for winning units once combat ends. Reforming is one of them.

[Whobetta]

soooo then are harpies worthless?

or will fleeing with them still create the effectiveness that they had in 7th?

[Jvh792]

got my rulebook. thanks for tips! You guys are a great help. I need to find a way to engage his slaves to get around them and into the clanrats. I also need to dodge his giant block of 40 plague monks, for find a way to kill it... Which will be difficult.

[Thenick18]

To go along with Tethlis, the new 8th Ed Rulebook is amazing. It truly is a "Bible" to the hobby, there should be no reason anyone who participates in warhammer doesn't have a rulebook. When I head to the local shop to play a match, I always bring my 5lb book with, even though I know most of the rules, but to be able to reference something trivial you most likely have missed in previous readings of it is invaluable. Not to mention the color pages and miniature showcase and detail of all the armies. When I get bored painting or haven't in a while, I crack open the book and look at some of the minis in it. Its absolutely fantastic.

[Meteor]

If you want to be competitive, two hydras will be the way to go. I've never faced a plague catapult before so I don't know how bad hydras will struggle when hit by one.

But Skaven magic will slaughter DE like there's no tomorrow. So take plenty of magical defenses is my suggestion, a Lv4 with Seal of Ghrond and Dispel Scroll will help keep you out of trouble.

I'd suggest two to three combat units should be enough, make sure you bulk them out fairly large, MMU or MSU will struggle against Skaven I believe, especially against Dreaded 13th.

What you want to do with what models you have is up to you here.

[Phierlihy]

I have to disagree with you Meteor. Two Hydras isn't competative, it's easy. Any fool can win with a pair. But would you really want to face that? I field what's fun. I don't like playing kick-the-baby with a pair of Hydras,

Skaven magic CAN be heinous. But no more so than ours can to them. Skaven characters are VERY vulnerable. Death Magic can kill then almost without trying. And in close combat, low toughness, low armour, mediocre ward saves.

Things Skaven hate...
- Doom and Darkness on their General.
- anything that causes Panic checks.
- anything that causes Fear or Terror
- Witch Elves and Corsairs
- Shades in their back field
- big units of Cold One Knights
- Black Dragon Egg
- Black Horror

We have the tools to take them down. It's certainly not a great match up for us. But hardly impossible. I will say it's an army that I generally tailor my lists to fight. A generic list will often lose imho.

[L1qw1d]

30 clanrats w/ bsb and general
40 plague bearers (horde formation)
30 clanrats w/ gray seer and lvl 1 magic rat-man

These are what I would specifically send troops into. I'd Shoot and Cast the Slaves if I was going first, and figure out a way during Deployment that would make it so that if the SLAVES went one way, it would open up one of the Clan units- then Charge away.

The HPA needs to be "massaged aggressively" meaning do anything you can to screw with it, or keep it away from whatever you can use to get to those 3 units. (entire thread on this bugly!). I'd say that since he's only throwing one HPA, one Hydra would be kosher on HPA duty OR Caster blitz.

COK and DR would make a nasty impact as we've been discussing in core threads, and with support from a Cauldron's KB you'd knock down a LOT of return fire.

Also: Shades and Assassins- the direct analogue to the Shades are his Gutter Runners- so know where they are going and force them to hit someone- they get no rank and have to maximize frontage- and their stat line is roughly the same as our Spears (little more M; lower I tho). He's running quick 72 points for you. I've never seen them on turn one, either.

By comparison, our Shades (esp with a Sin in them) can be placed far enough away so that if he sends someone after THEM, the rest can be hit- and if they actually MAKE it (2 WS5 attacks w/ EHW? Yes, please!); The other awesome part about their part in Deploy? Scout. Work from where the Skaven command= the back and then charge the front with other heavy hitters to hold things.

There are two additional Achilles Heels I note in his construction: He put his BSB and General in one unit and Casters in one unit. The Extra Points you earn from killing those in addition to the 130 it would take to make the units would make the entire rest of the game Points Denial (KNOWING that you will lose quite a bit with 2 heavy hitters out still)

[Jvh792]

PS!!! I played this skaven player in the two headed Giant tournament this weekend. Beat him! First ever tournament after playing 3 games ever (so I was pretty nervous), but I took first place!!! Undefeated baby!!!

[Meteor]

I have to disagree with you Meteor. Two Hydras isn't competative, it's easy. Any fool can win with a pair. But would you really want to face that? I field what's fun. I don't like playing kick-the-baby with a pair of Hydras,

Skaven magic CAN be heinous. But no more so than ours can to them. Skaven characters are VERY vulnerable. Death Magic can kill then almost without trying. And in close combat, low toughness, low armour, mediocre ward saves.

Things Skaven hate...
- Doom and Darkness on their General.
- anything that causes Panic checks.
- anything that causes Fear or Terror
- Witch Elves and Corsairs
- Shades in their back field
- big units of Cold One Knights
- Black Dragon Egg
- Black Horror

We have the tools to take them down. It's certainly not a great match up for us. But hardly impossible. I will say it's an army that I generally tailor my lists to fight. A generic list will often lose imho.

Sorry, I rephrase, "if you want a handicap while you get use to DE, take double Hydras". I myself only take one Hydra max, and even then, I tend to avoid taking any at the standard 2500pt mark because it's more challenging that way.

Death Magic's two useful spells imo are doom and darkness and soulblight. Character sniping spells are too hard to succeed with. Too many conditions to meet in order to have a chance at killing them, and the 2+ to wound spell doesn't have an extended range version so it's not so useful unless you tailor at least your wizard to specifically go out of her way to go around sniping things.

Rats are one of those more difficult armies to handle imo, 8th ed really helped them out with the new steadfast rule.

But regardless, I'm very happy to hear you defeated this opponent and even won the tournament. What did you take in your list? I'm curious

[L1qw1d]

I've played them a few times, and am trying to compile a DRAICH for 8th on them. Like one of the old ones where you examine the units and stuff.

[Jvh792]

Meteor, I took:

29 spears, FC + flame banner - 228
20 RXB shields and musician - 225
14 corsairs SB, musician + SSS - 180
5 harpies - 55
5 harpies - 55
1 hydra - 175

DL on Peggy + RoH, AoD, PoK + halberd - 281
lvl 2 shadow sorc + ToF - 150
Master BSB + egg, Armor of blood - 150
(do egg attacks boost his save from armor of blood?)
1499 total

MVPs - RXBs swung every game in my favour. Coolest thing they did was slaughter the hellpit abomination while standing on an anvil of vaul (flaming attacks). 4 wounds in one round and another 4 in the other!
Hydra and spears destroyed a whole army of trolls. Literally, the whole army was trolls. Their character made them a core choice.

Worst Idea was giving the Lord the Ring of Hotek instead of crown of command. I just got lucky that he was never caught fleeing. Corsairs also sucked. Never died somehow, but never won a combat and never got to use slavers.

[L1qw1d]

they boost it if you use it in close combat (not a template hit, but 2D6)