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Don't you charge me from behind! 
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Black Guard
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So this is more of a heads-up than a tactics post.

After reading this post on http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84096 (scroll down for the cool stuff) I wanted to let you guys know, as we currently are the masters of flank and rear charges with our unkillable solo chars.

So short story is that if we rear or flank charge, and dont challenge, then they challenge us and we have to accept. Then the rules for challenges says that if the challengers are not in b2b contact, the guy getting challenged(our lord) gets teleported to the front and b2b to the challenger. Making our side/rear charge a front charge and we loose our extra charge bonus.

So now you know :)

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Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:17 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I have seen that post and disagree with the rules interpretation. I do not think the challenge rules to allow such "teleportation". I would never try this trick myself, and would pick up my models if anyone tried to pull this crap on me.

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Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:41 pm
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This has been an accepted interpretation of 8th edition rules in my area for quite a while. Basically, the moral of the story is that you shouldn't charge solo characters into a fight unless you're confident with your staying power. It reduces the effectiveness of a lone model, and encourages combined charges and purchasing unit champions to help absorb random challenges (all of which I'm fine with.)

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Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:04 pm
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It's not the accepted interpretation in my area, tournaments or friendly games, that's for sure. Whether it is a single character or a unit of two+ models, I know of no rule that tells me to move, teleport, or slide my entire unit so that a challenge can commence. This is a case where the sentence "if, for whatever reason, [moving into base to base contact] is not possible, assme that the models are in base contact" is applied. Like Dyvim Tvar, anyone who tried to pull that on me would have slim chances of EVER getting a second game in with me.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:30 am
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This is interesting. I would have no problem with this if it was a clear rule but it seems to me that it is not intended to move a character from the rear to the front; more likely they have not been careful enough with the wording. I think if such a thing were meant to happen then it would probably say something like "move the character into base contact, even if he has to move from the rear or flank to do so".

phierlihy wrote:
Whether it is a single character or a unit of two+ models, I know of no rule that tells me to move, teleport, or slide my entire unit so that a challenge can commence.


I think the errata clarifies that he cannot be forced to leave the unit. Only move around within it. But as for a single character, the rule: "if, for whatever reason, this is not possible" is not clearly defined, unfortunately.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:53 am
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the reality is that it is not clear.

points of note:

‘if a character accepts a challenge move him in to base contact’

however it goes on to state:

‘after all what good is the narrative of a challenge with out the visual reality.’

implying its about making the game more exciting rather than a ‘must’. however it is only an implication.

‘If for some reason the models can not be moved in to base contact assume they are.’

It offers no example so we do not know in detail what it means.

Thus:

‘The most important rule in the game’ takes effect. (page 3? side note)

It is to close to call so you and your opponent must agree on the application or roll a dice. If a tournament says one way or another then there is no debate.

Points of note:

If a challenge was issued both characters would move to fight so its not certain they would end up on the flank or the front or completely removed from the unit all together.

Is it reasonable for a single unit to generate a bonus for flanking? Probably. Soldiers are trained to fight in a certain format. any variation from that format with create a certain unease and if that flanking unit is looking seriously skilled then no doubt you'd rather take his attack on your locked shield front, with your brothers baking you up.

Could a unit rearrange to deal with a single unit?
probably not immediately. Soldiers are controlled but not unaffected by warfare. They are under orders and performing maneuvers etc, lots of pressure. there minds are occupied. It is highly likely a single unit could get the drop on them.

That been said... The single unit is not fighting any soldiers on the flank... He is fighting another champion head to head. the unit would have ample time to prepare for any subsequent attacks and would likely have turned to see the out come anyway. or at least nearby soldiers would have.

My ruling... Reality plays. No flank bonus if a challenge is issued but i would bow to a dice roll.

either way i most certainly would not walk away from the game. its important to respect other gamers views on rules, unless they are playing a dwarf gun line... i kid. sort of.

ive have never played the rules that way though as this post was news to me. but very interesting news.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:03 pm
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If you expect a challenge you can avoid this mess entirely: issue a challenge yourself!


Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:02 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Good point.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:23 pm
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The rules for moving characters around are to move them within the unit so that they are in base to base with another character for purposes of fighting the challenge. I think that's fairly well established. However if, and I do mean *if*, we were to allow the broad interpretation suggested, here is the slippery slope we will walk upon...

A)My dragon and his rider fly into the front of your unit. There is a challenge and I need to move to you. Since your character is on the flank, I'll just move my dragon onto your flank to accept your challenge. What's worse is if your character is on a different base size and thus hanging off the side of the unit, I'll move my dragon into his rear!

B)My block of 20 Spearmen charge your block of Spearmen in the flank. My champion challenges and your accepts. You pick your block of Spearmen and move them into MY flank so that your champion is now in base to base contact with mine. If you can move a unit of 1 model, why can't you move a unit of 20 models? A unit is a unit is a unit. There's no difference.

I believe hope I've manged to illistrated my point.

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Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:08 pm
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phierlihy wrote:
If you can move a unit of 1 model, why can't you move a unit of 20 models? A unit is a unit is a unit. There's no difference.


I agree with the Idea of your post wholeheartedly. However, It's worth pointing out that the FAQ clarifies that if a character is in a unit he can only move WITHIN that unit in order to accept a challenge. The problem is that there is no clarification pertaining to lone characters. Also, The dragon example is an excellent point.

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:38 am
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Interesting discussion, but my understanding is that the rule requires the character or champ answering the challenge to move within the unit he is in get into base contact (BRB, p. 102). One cannot change the facing of the charging unit per the rules, absent a combat reform after the first round of combat. I don't think that the rules allow a change of facing of the charging unit (BRB, p. 21; in this case, the solo character is subject to the rules for a unit). Given that you are in the flank, I would think that their character would either have to move to "make way" to the challenge in the flank (BRB, p. 100) and not the reverse (which is what is allowed for in the rules). Once units are in base contact, they cannot move (except for the rear rank sliding to get into base contact) and they cannot "slide", absent a combat reform. At least that is how we play and, when not possible, the rules do allow the challengers to not be in base contact.


Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:01 am
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You cant move the whole unit to a new flank as the rules state move ‘him’, not move the ‘unit’. The champion moves not his unit.
Also does it say in the rules that he can move ‘within’ his unit? because that would defiantly mean he cant change what side he is attacking.
also could the dragon example be clarified. Is the unit champion in the front rank on the edge? Surly where possible you must maintain the same unit facing? The rules dont say you can choose, so it would be reasonable to assume you must minimise the distance moved by your character as he moves to accept the challenge. but i fear i may have misunderstood what is happening in that example.
In any case, your flank charging lone character really isnt fighting the units flank anyway, he is fighting another champion. How can it be reasonable to get a flank charge bonus if your not fighting any of the models that make up that flank?
However, after the challenge i think the character should be returned to the flank and the bonus should apply there on.


Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:53 am
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Hence the slippery slope of this argument. A Bloodthirster, a Lord on a Dragon, or just a solo character running around on his own shouldn't be punished to have their facing changed just because they can accept a challenge.

The FAQ is correct and this seems obvious to me but there's always folks out there looking to disagree... A model in a challenge can more throughout his own unit to reach a challenge. If he is alone (it already sucks to be him!) then he doesn't have anyone to swap places with so stays right where he is. My Chaos Lord got challenged and he had to accept. He looked to his right and then he looked to his left but realized he was alone and a unit of one model. That poor guy searched all over his entire unit, the whole 25mm base of the unit, looking for someone to swap places with so he could get closer to the challenge but couldn't find anyone to swap places with. So instead he called out and said "I'm right here waiting for ya! Come get some!!"

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:38 am
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i dont think its about swapping with another model. its about moving the champion. It just represents the fact that the characters are fighting not the rank and file. The reality is your bloodthirster would not get a flank bonus because he is not attacking the flank. he is fighting head to head with one other model. You shouldn't get your bonus for flank in a challenge. but you should get it after the challenge is completed. its not a matter of just disagreeing. its a very complicated situation.


Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:08 am
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ive changed my mind. i think phierlihy is correct.
challengers are still effected by abilities and items etc originating from out side the combat, and are considered to be touching other models out side the combat. moving him to the front would disrupt the above so the models will not be moved in to base contact.
interestingly the chariot rules sort of help.
a chariot hitting a lone character will distribute its impact hits to the lone character, and it would be possible for the character to avoid these hits by accepting a challenge and moving to base to base with the challenger. So yeah, the slippery slope.

edit: hmm, no, the chariot would slide with the champion. so the chariot rules dont help... unsuprisingly.


Last edited by Orsha on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:19 am
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perhaps the closing word is that a character is still in contact with FRIENDLY models, as such a flank charging spear unit would in-fact have to change the whole units facing to get its champion in to base to base with the challenger, if the 'move to base to base with challenger' was applied. As mentioned by a few posts in this thread. so a lone character doesn't change his facing just as a unit does not. Took a while but i get it now.


Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 am
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Doesn't the "make way" rule take care of this? The character/champion within a unit moves to the fighting rank to face his opponent? I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up? what am I missing?


Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:33 am
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the problem there is the other player can choose to make way or not. you cant force him to.


Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:20 am
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If a player's character accepts a challenge, he chooses to "make Way". Also, the BRB is clear that the challenge can be accepted even if it is not possible to have base-to-base contact between the two models in the challenge, so it is not an issue that forces the character to change its facing just to make or accept the challenge. I think that the "make Way" rule and a challenge from the flank or rear is an exception to typical the rule than command models have to be in the front rank. One point is that if the charge is in the flank (as opposed to the rear), the two opposing models in the challenge can come into base-to-base contact on the corner, so I don't see an issue with the flank charge unless something else (monument, building, another unit) prevents the corner contact.
Code:
F=front
S=second rank
T=third rank
A=accepted challenge
C=challenger

TTTTT:
SSSSS:C
FFFFA:


Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:22 pm
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phierlihy wrote:
"I'm right here waiting for ya! Come get some!!"


Exactly! Although realistically, Wouldn't a character have to make his way to the right edge of the unit in order to make the challenge in the first place? I doubt that a hero who has R&F standing in front of him would hear a challenge coming from the opposite side of the unit. (unless he was fighting phoenix guard and the character leading them was not pledged to silence:P)

olderplayer wrote:
If a player's character accepts a challenge, he chooses to "make Way".
Yes but in the scenario being discussed this character is issueing the challenge, not accepting. Semantics I know.

olderplayer wrote:
the challenge can be accepted even if it is not possible to have base-to-base contact.
The problem is that people seem to think that moving a character to a different facing is "possible" and so should be done.

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:53 am
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