Tactics without CoB???

[Noxy]

Hi there,

I'm considering building a list without CoB and wanted to know if this is at any rate possible. If given it some trys and it just hurts in my soul not to include it. The lists all seem weak to me. I'd like to know if any of you actually plays without a CoB and which tactics/lists do you use. Or else, if you were forced to play without it, waht would be your approach...gunlines? magic heavy?


Opinions, experiences, ideas...whatever, it will be welcomed.


Byee

I've been playing without a CoB for the past year or so.
Instead of the CoB you'll want to take an extra unit. There are 3 ways to go here:
-replace with an extra anvil unit. Do this if you tend to bless your existing anvil units with the CoB.
-replace with an extra hammer unit. Do this if you tend to bless your existing hammer units with the CoB.
-include a lvl4 SS w/ sacrificial dagger and lore of Shadow/Dark to make up for the loss of support
I tend to always run 2 blocks of 30 warriors (anvils) and 2-3 hammers (hydra/CoK/BG/chariot) per anvil supported by a lvl4 SS w/ sacrificial dagger.

Playing without a CoB will make you a better player. Also avoid playing with 2 Hydras or an eternal lord while you're at it. Your wins will be more difficult for sure... but you'll learn a lot about the rest of your army.

Do you want to be competitive? Include a CoB, 2 Hydras, PoK, sacrificial dagguer in your list.

[Purehybrid]

I'm very new to the game, but may CoB died turn 1 or 2, for 3 games in a row, to cannon fire, so I stopped taking it.

Maybe it just sucks in low point games, or just vs dwarves(my gaming partner)? I don't know... but it was just a free 300vp each time I used it

Pretty much guaranteed to hit, 50% chance to do d6 wounds. 225pts to draw cannon fire for 1-2 turns? No thanks.

[Ichiyo1821]

I'm very new to the game, but may CoB died turn 1 or 2, for 3 games in a row, to cannon fire, so I stopped taking it.

Maybe it just sucks in low point games, or just vs dwarves(my gaming partner)? I don't know... but it was just a free 300vp each time I used it

Pretty much guaranteed to hit, 50% chance to do d6 wounds. 225pts to draw cannon fire for 1-2 turns? No thanks.

What points are you playing? Seriously if he targets your COB with canons it only means you don't have any other thing worth shooting at...It's not the COB, it's probably the list.

He estimates distance, he rolls the artillery dice, he may or may not misfire so he uses the rune. He either hits or misses, then he needs to roll 4's to wound, now you roll 4+ ward save, now he rolls for the d6 wounds if you fail your ward save. So many factors go in to actually killing the COB with one shot. Now he must be very very lucky to one shot it 3 times in a row...

[Purehybrid]

I'm very new to the game, but may CoB died turn 1 or 2, for 3 games in a row, to cannon fire, so I stopped taking it.

Maybe it just sucks in low point games, or just vs dwarves(my gaming partner)? I don't know... but it was just a free 300vp each time I used it

Pretty much guaranteed to hit, 50% chance to do d6 wounds. 225pts to draw cannon fire for 1-2 turns? No thanks.

What points are you playing? Seriously if he targets your COB with canons it only means you don't have any other thing worth shooting at...It's not the COB, it's probably the list.

He estimates distance, he rolls the artillery dice, he may or may not misfire so he uses the rune. He either hits or misses, then he needs to roll 4's to wound, now you roll 4+ ward save, now he rolls for the d6 wounds if you fail your ward save. So many factors go in to actually killing the COB with one shot. Now he must be very very lucky to one shot it 3 times in a row...

Playing at 1250. So you are right, there aren't any juicy hydras to draw arty fire... however I do run CoK's.

He doesn't need to estimate distance afaik he can just point a spot where he is shooting. Arty dice is true, but misfires can be ignored as you mentioned. He wounds on a 2+ not a 4+ (s10 v t7).

So he has ~42% per shot, of doing an average 3.5 wounds.

If he is running 2 cannons... well... yeah.

Please let me know if we're playing any of this incorrectly, as it is definitely possible

edit: oh wow, just checked faq again, CoB is t10 >.> that changes things! only a 25% chance makes it likely to survive a bit longer I knew there had to be something we were missing lol

[Flash29]

check your errata, the cauldron of blood has a tougness of 10, get some shades or harpies to kill the cannons or use scenery like houses or obstacles.

[Ichiyo1821]

I'm very new to the game, but may CoB died turn 1 or 2, for 3 games in a row, to cannon fire, so I stopped taking it.

Maybe it just sucks in low point games, or just vs dwarves(my gaming partner)? I don't know... but it was just a free 300vp each time I used it

Pretty much guaranteed to hit, 50% chance to do d6 wounds. 225pts to draw cannon fire for 1-2 turns? No thanks.

What points are you playing? Seriously if he targets your COB with canons it only means you don't have any other thing worth shooting at...It's not the COB, it's probably the list.

He estimates distance, he rolls the artillery dice, he may or may not misfire so he uses the rune. He either hits or misses, then he needs to roll 4's to wound, now you roll 4+ ward save, now he rolls for the d6 wounds if you fail your ward save. So many factors go in to actually killing the COB with one shot. Now he must be very very lucky to one shot it 3 times in a row...

Playing at 1250. So you are right, there aren't any juicy hydras to draw arty fire... however I do run CoK's.

He doesn't need to estimate distance afaik he can just point a spot where he is shooting. Arty dice is true, but misfires can be ignored as you mentioned. He wounds on a 2+ not a 4+ (s10 v t7).

So he has ~42% per shot, of doing an average 3.5 wounds.

If he is running 2 cannons... well... yeah.

Please let me know if we're playing any of this incorrectly, as it is definitely possible

edit: oh wow, just checked faq again, CoB is t10 >.> that changes things! only a 25% chance makes it likely to survive a bit longer I knew there had to be something we were missing lol

As much as I love the COB, I will never run it in a 1250 game. Instead I will run lots of RXBs Spearmen, Chariots and Hydras plus a master on a darksteed or Pegasus with the Pendant. Imo you should only field 1 character in a 1250 list as DE or if you really want it characters, a master and a bare level 1 with tome of Furion. Harpies can tie up dwarven warmachines but you need to deal atleast 1 wound on the charge and deal 2 on the next. They have good armor for wm crew, toughness 4 and happen to be stubborn so the best you can achieve on the average is 2 turns of it not shooting. And yes toughness 10 makes people think twice about shooting it. Initiative spells are the COB's only weakness imo.

[Ichiyo1821]

Anyway I'll try to stir this thread back to topic. If you are adamant about not taking a COB BSB then it's fine but I feel that you should atleast have one. If you are taking a non-COB bsb I feel that his impact on the game relies on the actual list you use.

For example. If you plan to field an on foot BSB with say AoD plus Dawnstone (50 points right? I can't remember atm) then this setup is best for magic heavy static armies or a heavy footslogger list. I honestly don't like this set-up as I believe in the idea that DE are suppose to be fast as opposed to being static.

If you want to field a BSB on a Dark Steed or Cold One, it is best that the rest of the army is either a balance of static elements like Crossbowmen, sorc bunker Spears with the usual suspects of chariots and Hydras. If you field a BSB on a mount while the rest of the army is just hanging back, you are wasting the points and versatility of the BSB.

If you field a BSB on a Dark Pegasus, you should have a mobile army with Hydras, Chariots, Cold Ones, Dark Riders and all that with perhaps the only static elements would be Spearmen. Thus your melee units will always be in range of the BSB and the BSB will have the option of actually going around. For example against Empire. While your units are in melee with his, your BSB can be taking out nearby warmachines. Not only is he giving the re-rolls to the combat units, he himself is doing something.

Don't ever bother with a BSB on Manticore in this edition. 'Nuff said.

I believe that the power of DE lie in synergy and even if it's just one character, I want him to be able to get the most out of him thus the reason I use the COB in my list. By no means is the COB an auto-take but since I favor TAC lists it suits my playing style well. Regardless of what BSB you take however, you should always kit him to be resilient and protected at the cost of anything.

P.S. there is one build that I love but will not advocate in games that are not beyond 2500 points. That is the BSB on a COK with the Hydra Banner. The only reason he can get away with that is because you can easily get him to 2+as and since you hae the points chances are you also have a COB so can opt to give that unit (most likely a COK unit) the 5+ ward save. That combo hits HARD and I mean 7th edition Deathstar hard but its also a giant point sink. Although it is extremly hard to take out, it still is a LARGE point sink that I would probably only use during pick up games as I watch faces melt.

[Overmind]

I like Hydra Banner plus Black Guard myself.

MY latest obstacle to getting the COB in is that I want to run executioners, and I want them to actually hit things so I want them hitting first-ish. SO with me three character allotment at 2,400 I can get my dragon lord, a death hag BSB, and a sorceress level 2.

[Tethlis]

I would consider Execs to be the unit that benefits the most from a Cauldron of Blood. Stubborn, +1 Attack for that lethal Strength 6, and a possible 5+ Ward for either your squishy Execs or your Death Hag BSB? Quite nice. Sure, expensive when you're buying two Death Hags, both with expensive upgrades (ASF banner and Cauldron) but there's a lot of natural synergy to be found in that duo.

[Overmind]

I agree, but trying to squeeze it in is hellish. I don't seem to have the extra 200pts.

[Ichiyo1821]

How so? Do you have BSB in the list in the first place? Master + BSB upgradge is already 105, put mundane and 50 magic upgrade puts you at 170, give him a mount even a DS is in the 190 range. That's just 35 short for the buffs.

[Overmind]

Errr I have a death hag bsb to go with the executioners... I said that in my post above tehtlis'.

It's a list I have a hard time getting a cauldron in.

And as I've said before, I've either got my peg bsb or a hag bsb... both take points, and so I have none for the cauldron.

[Purehybrid]

check your errata, the cauldron of blood has a tougness of 10, get some shades or harpies to kill the cannons or use scenery like houses or obstacles.

Yeh edited that above.. the t10 should make it a less viable target to my dwarf opponent.

I always run a unit of harpies, and often a unit of shades too... however my opponent is pretty good with his deployments, and usually covers his cannon(s) with an organ gun.

Scenery is an interesting point. We don't have any actual scenery, but we use boxes etc as makeshift buildings/towers. It seems virtually impossible to actually have a decent sized unit completely out of LoS though. Our last game, we used some "Infinite Height Hills" from a tourny ruleset, and that made the game much easier for me... but I don't want to rely on house rules.

As for the other discussion. I think if you aren't taking a CoB at low points, you shouldn't bother with a BSB at all. We have high leadership, and can spend those extra points fleshing out units to win combat or at least keep steadfast instead.

[Ichiyo1821]

That's pretty much common sense really. At lower points why would you invest in a BSB to re-roll ld checks when you barely have units because all the points went into your characters...