Super Ambush Dwarves!

Aszvet · Post by **Aszvet** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:43 pm

Had a battle the other day where my opponent took 1 block of 40 rangers with great weapons, 1 block of 40 longbeards/rangers with great weapons and a mr J bugman. He also had an Anvil.

These units allowed him to pull off some nasty first turn charges with the anvil.

All i could do was watch as my units were butchered and his horde dwarfs could put out a good 10 to 20 wounds a turn.

how do i deal with speedy dwarf death?

Thanks
A

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:48 pm

Many ways around it. Use terrain preferably impassable terrain. If you don't have access to those, Dark Riders and Harpies position and angle away from your blocks in the table edges/areas they can come out of. A Ranger, Miner list works that way so you have to predict where he can come out. Force him to charge cheap expendable units to open him up for counter charges. This also mean his Anvil is mostly alone situated somewhere back so if you have a fast character like a Dreadlord on Pegasus or a Sorceress on DP with Death or Shadow you can chase after it to gain hefty points. Miners still have a small possibility of not coming on board even with that drill or blasting charges I forgot (+1 to come on board). Oh btw even if they charge first, they still strike last almost all the time or at best Initiative 2 so that is still good. A well placed steadfast spearman unit can also ruin his plans. It's a matter of preparedness.

Littleboyblues · Post by **Littleboyblues** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:00 am

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=68480

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:01 pm

littleboyblues has perspective using this list, as mentioned, so that's a good battle report to ready to see what its capabilities are.

Since Rangers are common for pretty much every 8th edition Dwarf army, it's very useful to expect 30+ of them any time you face Dwarves, possibly with Master Rune of Challenge. Your best approach is to try and use disposable units to shield your best troops, helping to make the Rangers deploy as far away as possible so you have time to react before they're charging any of your best units. Once that's done, try to move everything across the table quickly so incoming Miners have to advance after you to reach an effective target.

Littleboyblues · Post by **Littleboyblues** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:35 pm

OP! Crap missed this first time! He can't do first turn charges unless he goes second. The anvil doesn't get around the 1st turn no charge rule. Most people will run a rune of challenge and make you charge them though. (which they can't use if you go first) This is why I personally don't run the rune of challenge in 8th as its lost some usefulness. It's still great but can't do the sneaky 1st turn stuff anymore.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:01 pm

wouldn't this mean that he's NOT gunlining so you can gunline his Anvil, and then Metal his dwarves to death?

Ryric · Post by **Ryric** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:17 am

Any good dwarf will be able to basically shut down most magic phases. I play dwarves (not against DE yet, though) and I've never had trouble dominating magic except against a Power Scroll (one shot wonder) or a Teclis (cheese).

Also, good luck gunlining an anvil. It's T7, IIRC, and gives a ward save to its crew, who are dwarves with gromril armor and shields, so they usually get a 3+ armor save.

Lastly, the anvil doesn't need line of sight to work.

Noxy · Post by **Noxy** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:42 pm

The basis to make the dwarf list work is to position the main unit of Rangers in a sweet spot where they'll be able to charge a flank without much retaliation on turn 2 and munch through your army from there on, supported by Miners flank charges.

Using the Scout rules means he has to deploy 12" away from any of your unit. Thus any unit you own creates a 12" "bubble" he can't deploy into. You can thus push his deployment away from your flanks with small disposable units that will create such non-deployment zones.

The other way to go about it is to deploy in a refused flank / bunker in a corner of the deployment zone. The Dwarf player's choices are to attack your only flank (which should be well protected) or take your army head on.

Counter-charging a Hydra into that unit of Rangers should seal the deal as they have no protection. It becomes much more problematic if they have the Cannon+GT+Organ gun combo, in which case your counter-attack might be weaker than it should.

On the matter of magic against Dwarves: Sacrificial Dagger + PoD beats their 4-5 extra DD (2 for Runelord, 2 from scroll or +1 if Anvil).

My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:02 am

My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

There's no need to get personal about his height

Noxy · Post by **Noxy** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:31 am

Red... wrote:
My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

There's no need to get personal about his height

I meant a Dwarf player, although he's beardy enough and got both the temperament and drinking habits of a Dwarf.
I wonder how they say Dwarf in russian.

On topic: I've realized that the units you'd use for creating the "non-deployment zones" I was talking in my previous posts are coincidentally the same units you'd use for warmachine-hunting.

Kalath'n'dhar · Post by **Kalath'n'dhar** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:08 pm

noxy wrote:
Red... wrote:
My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

There's no need to get personal about his height

I meant a Dwarf player, although he's beardy enough and got both the temperament and drinking habits of a Dwarf.
I wonder how they say Dwarf in russian.

On topic: I've realized that the units you'd use for creating the "non-deployment zones" I was talking in my previous posts are coincidentally the same units you'd use for warmachine-hunting.

- Totally of-topic -
1: Red was making a joke =)
2: ка́рлик [manikin]

Ryric · Post by **Ryric** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:09 am

noxy wrote:On the matter of magic against Dwarves: Sacrificial Dagger + PoD beats their 4-5 extra DD (2 for Runelord, 2 from scroll or +1 if Anvil).

My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

What scroll are you talking about? Perhaps the Master Rune of Balance?

I've never played against Dark Elves, and haven't played with them - yet, so I can't really say for sure that their magic would be shut down. One of the reasons I'm buying a few models is that no one in our group uses DE.

However, I can offer you my experiences playing dwarves versus various factions. I went to Ard Boyz with light anti-magic (RS, Balance, one spellbreaker) and shut down virtually every opponent except for the one match he died in. It's been the same story in local tournaments - only IF, power scrolls, or Teclis casts more than once or twice (usually my choices also) per game.

Again, I probably don't have your level of experience, your level of local competition, and your level of magic understanding, but I can only offer what I do have.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:16 am

I've never played against Dark Elves, and haven't played with them - yet, so I can't really say for sure that their magic would be shut down.

A 2.5k dwarf army can happily field enough magic to shut an opponent down completely, barring irresitible force castings.

Why?

Dwarves can take get a basic runelord (+2DD) for less than 150 points and a runesmith (+1DD) for about half of that. He can give one of those the Master Rune of Balance (+1 DD to him, -1 PD to you).

Let's say he takes 1 Runelord and 2 Rune smiths, along with the MRoB, that's about 350 points (same as a single level 4 wizard with magic items). In exchange, he gets +5 DD and you get -1. That means even if you roll a double six, he ends up with eleven dice and you get eleven too. If you roll say a 5 and a 2, he ends up with 10 dispel dice to your six. In that environment, you can't even get power of darkness off sucessfully. Now bear in mind that if he wants to, he can easily pump that higher (such as taking more runesmiths or runelords and taking multiple runes of spellbreaking (dispel scrolls) per model). Magic phase: shut down.

Lasthobbit · Post by **Lasthobbit** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:08 pm

Using the Scout rules means he has to deploy 12" away from any of your unit. Thus any unit you own creates a 12" "bubble" he can't deploy into.

Such a big unit of rangers (longbeards) could charge your front without troubles. But I must agree it is better than take it to the flank.
Ambush dwarves causes a lot of problems. At least it is unexpectible )

I wonder how they say Dwarf in russian.

Actually it sounds like gnome [Gnom] ) [Karlick] - is almost for DnD dwarves only.

Noxy · Post by **Noxy** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:57 am

Ryric wrote:
noxy wrote:On the matter of magic against Dwarves: Sacrificial Dagger + PoD beats their 4-5 extra DD (2 for Runelord, 2 from scroll or +1 if Anvil).

My main gaming partner is a Dwarf.

What scroll are you talking about? Perhaps the Master Rune of Balance?

However, I can offer you my experiences playing dwarves versus various factions. I went to Ard Boyz with light anti-magic (RS, Balance, one spellbreaker) and shut down virtually every opponent except for the one match he died in. It's been the same story in local tournaments - only IF, power scrolls, or Teclis casts more than once or twice (usually my choices also) per game.

Yes, I was talking about MoBalance, giving the Dwarf player an effective dice swing of 2.

It's true that the magic phase can easily be shut down, even against Dark Elves. I only meant to say that your only way to power through his DD is with Sacrificial Dagger + PoD. You don't stand a chance (bar IF) without it.
If you roll a high dice + low dice on winds of magic you won't get anything off.

My experience is that unless we have such a roll on winds of magic we can get one spell through per turn without relying on IF. More than 1 Dispel Scroll becomes a real issue.

Ryric wrote:Again, I probably don't have your level of experience, your level of local competition, and your level of magic understanding, but I can only offer what I do have.

Which is probably more than I do. I didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all, I'm only trying to share my experiences.

Dwarves get stronger as you play more points, and magic becomes even less relevant. The main problem of a Dwarf army is being systematically out-maneuvered and out-numbered. Those are funnily enough the strengths of our own army (cheap effective units and movement domination).