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Tactics without CoB??? 
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am
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Hi there,

I'm considering building a list without CoB and wanted to know if this is at any rate possible. If given it some trys and it just hurts in my soul not to include it. The lists all seem weak to me. I'd like to know if any of you actually plays without a CoB and which tactics/lists do you use. Or else, if you were forced to play without it, waht would be your approach...gunlines? magic heavy?


Opinions, experiences, ideas...whatever, it will be welcomed.


Byee


Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:05 pm
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Beastmaster
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The good news is you have 200 extra points to put somewhere else. Depending on the size of your list, this can be a significant amount! That's an extra Hydra, if you think about it.

What I feel is that the Cauldron does not make my list, it enhances it. I use it at the Battle Standard Bearer so it ALWAYS is giving me something good. But instead of giving my Witch Elves 5+ ward, I could have an extra 20 Witch Elves.

So to answer your question, I think not having the Cauldron makes you play more strongly to your units and their actual capabilities. What that is depends on what troops you buy.

~B~


Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:34 pm
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Blaznak wrote:
The good news is you have 200 extra points to put somewhere else. Depending on the size of your list, this can be a significant amount! That's an extra Hydra, if you think about it.

What I feel is that the Cauldron does not make my list, it enhances it. I use it at the Battle Standard Bearer so it ALWAYS is giving me something good. But instead of giving my Witch Elves 5+ ward, I could have an extra 20 Witch Elves.

So to answer your question, I think not having the Cauldron makes you play more strongly to your units and their actual capabilities. What that is depends on what troops you buy.

~B~
exactly. I play that exact way too.

to me, it feels that its the most unkillable BSB we can get. I wont see really often people bothering about trying to kill it, because, lets be frank, its a pain in the butt to kill. So they focus on the rest of my army, leaving my BSB and its buff alone.

About giving 20 extra WE for a CB, the difference between the two is that 5+ WS is actually gonna help you win combat, while the extra 20 WE will only help you stay locked in combat longer... is that better? i dont know, quite frankly.

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Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:44 pm
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One positive aspect of not having the Cauldron of Blood is that you free up disposable points that you can potentially spend on another elite infantry unit (always a good purchase) or else hero. The Cauldron is most beneficial to our elite infantry units as well as Cold One Knights, so lists that don't rely too much on those aren't going to be impacted too heavily by a lack of Cauldron. So shooting-oriented lists are one possibility. I think the most competitive build would probably have a Pegasus-mounted Dreadlord, a Pegasus-mounted Battle Standard Bearer, a strong magic presence in the form of a Supreme Sorceress, and at Hydra or two. These units are all mobile, durable, deadly, and not heavily impacted by a lack of Cauldron.

Fill in the rest with Core units of choice, as well as an elite infantry block and possibly some fast-movers like Shades or Cold One Chariots to make up for the lack of Cold One Knights, and that's a decent and deadly list.

Alternately, you can keep the Cold One Knights, but just use a BSB with Hydra Banner. It allows you retain the lethal effectiveness of Cold One Knights without taking a Cauldron.

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Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:00 am
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The CoB is by no means mandatory, its a great choice, if you have witches and execs to make stubborn, but those 200+ points can just as easily be spent elsewhere.

I personally make do with a level 2 sorceress with an extra spell for my army buffs and only rarely lose a game ;)


Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:36 pm
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Just a reminder.... yes, the CoB BSB cost 225 pts...

but if you decide to remove it, you'll still need a BSB, so its not really 200 pts you're freeing up.

but then, if you have a CoB AND a BSB.....

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Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:45 am
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My CoB frees up 225 points... out of which I have to spend around 150 for another BSB anyway.

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Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:16 am
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When I play 2k at tourney level my setup is nowadays like this

SS, Lvl4, Talisman of P., Dagger, Death
Noble, full kit, Pegasus, Sword of Might, Pendant, BSB (flying tarpit)
Mage, Lvl2, Pegasus, Powerscroll, Death

I feel there is no real need for a CoB under 2k unless you are going to have MSU, which supports the cauldron best (or 3k, where you have plenty units as well).

A flying auto-purple from a flank will hurt people much more than +1 attack. Or auto fate of bjuna if you don´t need the sun to kill whatever the KB from the cauldron was meant for :)


Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:00 pm
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Hi guys, maybe I´m really missing something, but I don´t really get why BSB and/or Cauldron are considered almost mandatory.

Both are buffs, one in the form of re-rolls, the other in ward save, killing blow etc. But in the end, both are very expensive buffs for units that are already pretty elite.

Taking them is like taking any other magic items that increase the unit´s abilities, only that they are more flexible (and way more expensive). If you distribute the points of, say, a magic banner among the individual minis in a unit, taking stuff means a heavy points increase for marginal benefits. For example 15 BG with Banner of Murder gets from 13 points per mini to 15,3 points which is, afaik, roughly the cost of a HE Swordmaster, who is still way better. It can be an interesting option, but it´s in no way mandatory.

Druchii troops have a ld between 8 and 9 and, with a DL, that goes to 10. Several of them are also ItP. And, in general, they are meant to win their combats, so no relying on steadfast rolls anyway. Is a BSB re-roll really that vital for the (relatively) few cases of loosing 25% to shooting or magic? It´s a lot of points that could almost mean a whole other unit, a caster or increase of size to the existing units.

Now the Cauldron. It´s 200+ points for the buffs. If we take a unit of 10 COKs for 310 points, we´re effectively paying 510 points just to have them having killing blow. That´s some 80% point increase! Smaller units have an even worse ratio.

I see the point of having this extra strenght/protection exactly at the point of the battle where and when you need it, but is it really worth so many points?

It seems to me that the focus on the CoB comes from the particular kind of gameplay/tactics based on winning combats through the tactical superiority achieved with buffs and hexes, be it CoB, be it Mindrazor etc. From my experience and from several other BRs I´ve seen, that´s in no way the only or even the most competitive way to play 8th.

That tactical advantage of superior force concentration in a particular match-up can be achieved through other means too, like concentrated shooting and killy template magic prior to a combat phase and (still in 8th!) through combined charges, deployment and movement. 200 points gives another whole unit for combined charges, a lv 2 with stuff, a powered up combat character, a Hydra etc. etc.

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Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:41 pm
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Sweeping death wrote:
Taking them is like taking any other magic items that increase the unit´s abilities, only that they are more flexible (and way more expensive). If you distribute the points of, say, a magic banner among the individual minis in a unit, taking stuff means a heavy points increase for marginal benefits. For example 15 BG with Banner of Murder gets from 13 points per mini to 15,3 points which is, afaik, roughly the cost of a HE Swordmaster, who is still way better. It can be an interesting option, but it´s in no way mandatory.


I find that individual point cost really doesn't matter compared to the effect achieved by the models themselves. Sure, the Banner of Murder increases the point cost of the unit, but it also increases their killing power significantly compared to the unit WITHOUT Banner of Murder. Yes, the point per model goes up, but their effectiveness increases as well. The amount of points spent on buffs doesn't really matter, so long as you don't give up VP while gathering VP from the enemy. This is the operating principle for the Cauldron, for magic buffs, and for elite and fragile infantry like Black Guard and Witch Elves. Focus an unbelievable amount of support into one or two crucial units, and as long as they kill the enemy, the investment isn't a big deal.

Sweeping death wrote:
Druchii troops have a ld between 8 and 9 and, with a DL, that goes to 10. Several of them are also ItP. And, in general, they are meant to win their combats, so no relying on steadfast rolls anyway. Is a BSB re-roll really that vital for the (relatively) few cases of loosing 25% to shooting or magic? It´s a lot of points that could almost mean a whole other unit, a caster or increase of size to the existing units.


They are meant to win their combats, but this doesn't always happen. The difference between failing a Leadership 8 test and a re-rollable Leadership 8 test is staggering, and (in my opinion) worth the purchase of the BSB. Leadership tests are now present in many phases of the game, not just Break tests. Stupidity, Panic, Fear, Terror, Quick Reform, rallying, these are all regular occurrences in every Dark Elf game that make the BSB useful to have. I hardly ever ran Cold One Knights in 7th edition because I couldn't risk being crippled by Stupidity. Now, with a BSB, I take them every game.

Sweeping death wrote:
Now the Cauldron. It´s 200+ points for the buffs. If we take a unit of 10 COKs for 310 points, we´re effectively paying 510 points just to have them having killing blow. That´s some 80% point increase! Smaller units have an even worse ratio.


Or you're paying 200+ points for +1 Attack on the riders, which (depending on the formation the Cold One Knights are in) can potentially double the number of Strength 6 attacks you're using. The Cauldron isn't just about bonuses; it's about force multipliers, increasing your killing power in a section of the table to let you overwhelm your opponent and compensating for the fragility and high point cost of our troops. In many cases, the +1 Attack buff is a 33% increase in the killing power of our units, and can't be dispelled. That's HUGE.

Sweeping death wrote:
It seems to me that the focus on the CoB comes from the particular kind of gameplay/tactics based on winning combats through the tactical superiority achieved with buffs and hexes, be it CoB, be it Mindrazor etc. From my experience and from several other BRs I´ve seen, that´s in no way the only or even the most competitive way to play 8th.


Are you comparing this to all armies, or to Elves in particular? Elves are always outnumbered, we're fragile, we're fast, and we can apply more buffs/augments to a single unit that virtually any other army in the game. Both High Elves and Dark Elves are actually using very similar playstyles now, with huge reliance on augments/hexes to offset how fragile we are. If you know of a better way to win with Dark Elves, I'd be very curious to hear it.

Sweeping death wrote:
That tactical advantage of superior force concentration in a particular match-up can be achieved through other means too, like concentrated shooting and killy template magic prior to a combat phase and (still in 8th!) through combined charges, deployment and movement. 200 points gives another whole unit for combined charges, a lv 2 with stuff, a powered up combat character, a Hydra etc. etc.


These are all true, but the key component of the Cauldron is that it provides its bonuses and cannot be stopped or interfered with, short of killing it. That's why it's superior to magic, to shooting, or to combined charges, which can all be interfered with or stopped by either your opponent or simply bad dice rolling. The Cauldron grants tremendous flexibility and power, enough that I would rather have the Cauldron over 200 points of other troops.

That said, is the Cauldron mandatory? No, I don't think it is.

However, I play in a very take-all-comers environment, and in those situations, the Cauldron can make a key unit durable, harder-hitting, or good at killing characters or armored targets where and when I need it most. There's no other single unit choice that can do all of those things reliably.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:20 am
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Sweeping death wrote:
Hi guys, maybe I´m really missing something, but I don´t really get why BSB and/or Cauldron are considered almost mandatory.

Both are buffs, one in the form of re-rolls, the other in ward save, killing blow etc. But in the end, both are very expensive buffs for units that are already pretty elite.

Taking them is like taking any other magic items that increase the unit´s abilities, only that they are more flexible (and way more expensive). If you distribute the points of, say, a magic banner among the individual minis in a unit, taking stuff means a heavy points increase for marginal benefits. For example 15 BG with Banner of Murder gets from 13 points per mini to 15,3 points which is, afaik, roughly the cost of a HE Swordmaster, who is still way better. It can be an interesting option, but it´s in no way mandatory.

Druchii troops have a ld between 8 and 9 and, with a DL, that goes to 10. Several of them are also ItP. And, in general, they are meant to win their combats, so no relying on steadfast rolls anyway. Is a BSB re-roll really that vital for the (relatively) few cases of loosing 25% to shooting or magic? It´s a lot of points that could almost mean a whole other unit, a caster or increase of size to the existing units.

Now the Cauldron. It´s 200+ points for the buffs. If we take a unit of 10 COKs for 310 points, we´re effectively paying 510 points just to have them having killing blow. That´s some 80% point increase! Smaller units have an even worse ratio.

I see the point of having this extra strenght/protection exactly at the point of the battle where and when you need it, but is it really worth so many points?

It seems to me that the focus on the CoB comes from the particular kind of gameplay/tactics based on winning combats through the tactical superiority achieved with buffs and hexes, be it CoB, be it Mindrazor etc. From my experience and from several other BRs I´ve seen, that´s in no way the only or even the most competitive way to play 8th.

That tactical advantage of superior force concentration in a particular match-up can be achieved through other means too, like concentrated shooting and killy template magic prior to a combat phase and (still in 8th!) through combined charges, deployment and movement. 200 points gives another whole unit for combined charges, a lv 2 with stuff, a powered up combat character, a Hydra etc. etc.


You are missing the point of the COB.

First no one said the COB was mandatory but imo, a BSB is in 8th edition. With additions like steadfast, quick reform, insane courage rally on units less than 25% etc etc on top of the usual terror, fear, panic tests a BSB's re-roll can be game breaking. Now so far there are 3 common set ups for a BSB namely the Hag BSB COB, BSB on DP and BSB on a COK unit. Each has its own merit but of all the 3, its the COB BSB which provides more utility and in that sense most cost effective. I firmly believe in the DE mantra that we should use movement, combined charges etc etc to destroy your opponent and in this case, the COB lets us achieve victories with less effort. Less effort means less room for error. Less effort on one side of the board means we conserve our strength will our opponent exerts his to counter one of many threats we can throw at them.

As with all builds, there is the inherent weakness so I will simply illustrate the CoB's strength. No matter the reasoning, a BSB is far too important die and I would personally do what I need to protect it. Being out of any unit and having 4 wounds on top of the 4+ ward save means the only way you can effectively kill it is using spells and charging it with a flying monster with multiple high strength attacks. With that being the case i can effectively give my entire army its BSB re-rolls while being protected. Being behind the lines means it can give your RXB, warmachines and sorceress bunkers re-rolls and nearby combat units important stupidity, terror/fear and breaktests as well. The COB is a force multiplier unit. unlike say a BSB on Pegasus with Lances, magical weapons and what nots, a COB blessing can grant any unit the best one possible as compared to a number of strength attacks that may or may not be in that combat when you need it. Going against a horde elite unit or simply need to wipe a unit out with sheer number of attacks? You got it. Need your Hydra to assassinate as hero with a ward save? You got it with a KB blessed Hydra, try to shrug 13 KB attacks on a small frontage then. Need to protect your COK, BG, Execs or Witches from the first few turns of missile fire? You got it. From this alone it gives you the idea how versatile your army can get with a single COB blessing with a hefty 24" inch range. With a Cauldron, you are effectively tilting the game into your favor without even using its BSB properties. You are using DE flexibility against your opponent which is how DE plays anyway.

Point cost. Again as I've said BSBs imo are mandatory in 8th edition. Even Dwarves with ld9 armywide take BSBs for sheer pain cementing their place as beign the army with the most resilient battleline. With us being fragile, who are we to say we can better without? A BSB naked nets you 105 points already, put in wargear to make him resilient, 20 something points for mundane, 50 for magical items and that puts him at 160-170 still not having 1+armor save. you give him a mount to increase it, a DS being the cheapest with a DP being the most expensive (yes no manticores please) and that catapults him close to 200 points. That's a t3 model with 2 wounds with 2+as with less stellar wardsave and at best 5 high strength attacks that can only affect one combat and has greater risks of dying as compared to a more resilient BSB who stays hidden with terrain, has t10 against shooting, 4 wounds, wardsave 4+, ITP because of Frenzy and can only be damaged by a single unit of 6 strong with no bonuses from flank or rear charges. Really, only spells with initiative checks can take it out and even that is a risk for your opponent.

So what if you "spent" 600 points in a unit to make it devastating. A 12 man COK bus can dish 19 WS5, I6, S6 attacks with hatred, 6 s4 attacks on the charge, aside from horde units what can survive through that? If you kill that unit on the spot in one charge, you have already earned the points you've spent on either TWICE as your unit is free to charge another one next turn. You've doubled the killing capacity of a 350+ point unit, took his points and kept yours. In the unlikey case (very unlikely) he kills that unit, he gets a fraction of the points you spend as your BSB is not in that battle but rather buffing the next unit you use to countercharge his. You get where I am getting at hopefully. I can go on and on with the flexibility of the COB and compare it to its downsides but it would be pointless as its merits are probably more than twice of it again not even counting the bonus that it is the BSB.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:37 am
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Well this seemed the place to ask this. I prefer running without my level 4 at the moment. Hitting 2,400 I run my dreadlord on a dragon. at 2,000 he's on foot in the Black Guard.

However, I guess the real question is, with my current set up, I only have one mage and a BSB I've become a huge fan of(the almost impossible to kill pegasus BSB). I'm not sure if dropping the mage for the CoB is worth it. And I do like my bsb a lot. I suppose I could do the Cauldron BSB, but I live in terror of an insta-kill spell hitting the thing. There goes 325 victory points. Compared to my 1+ rerollable armour save BSB who halfs the strength of enemy shooting, it just seems flimsy(only +1 wound too).

I keep having issues playing my Dark Elves in 8th(it seems like I can never fit anything in), and this is one of them so any advice is helpful.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:04 am
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All in all, the simplest answer to the original question is NO.

No you do not need a CoB to have a competitive list, and no you are not handicapping yourself by NOT taking one. CoB is NOT a staple unit in every list, nor are Hydras.

On the contrary, I find it is good practice to not rely on these effortless units to play your games because it will enhance your tactical skills and makes you think outside the box to tackle all sorts of challenges in a different way.

Some people also simply do not enjoy making a near deathstar like unit, be it for their own enjoyment, or for the enjoyment of their opponent. A combined 600+ point ASF CoK bus does become lame when you can hold off a horde of GW Khorne Marauders when charged and then break them in the next round of combat.

I have tried lists without the typical powerhouse units, and DE can still win games without them no problems.

So once again. Is a CoB mandatory? Does it make one's list weak by not taking one? No it isn't and no it doesn't. - As long as you take units or characters that further helps you gain CR to win combats then it is fine. CoB is one method to mitigate CR loss or improve CR gain, other units or heroes you take can do that too.



As for your dilemma overmind, if that mage is the only one you have, then no I wouldn't recommend you to drop her because you do need some form of magical defense, however meager it is, to block off some nasty spells your opponent may throw at you. The main reason why I would take a CoB is if it was going to be my BSB, otherwise, I'd just take a master on foot with the BSB. At least he will be able to help boost the Ld of one of my unit, and provide some strong attacks. If you were going for a straight up 200pt CoB then no I wouldn't bother. Ask yourself, do you REALLY need it? Does it significantly enhances a unit or two when you do buff them?

If you want to try it, then sure, go build a new list with it in and have a few goes. Maybe once you've had your fling with it, you will be able to better decide. Everyone has their own taste and style, I don't take a tooled up Lv4 either, but I don't replace it with a dragon haha. So just because people take a CoB BSB, doesn't mean you need to too.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:34 am
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I guess your appraisal of the CoK bus is a lot different than mine. If *I* was charged by those buggers they'd break me. The unit is a lot of points and quite fragile, all considered.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:29 am
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Well I did have the Hydra Banner on the unit, and there might've been a blessing on them too, I couldn't remember exactly. But when you're striking T3 no armour GW marauders with....atleast seventeen S4 by the riders, followed by another twelve S4 from the mounts and some S4 from the BSB, that's about 20+ wounds. There won't be many Marauders left to attempt to hit you first, before wounding you, where you still have an ok 5+ AS. Even if they killed 6 or 7 of yours, you still win the combat by a huge margin. Next turn finish them off with another supporting unit. I got lucky in my game, he only had the front rank +3 or so models behind left, so I lost like...one or two knights only. More than enough left to finish the Marauders off.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:35 am
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The CoB bsb is one of the most overpowered tools in our arsenal. Its so flexible that its scary...

Imao its the only thing that is mandatory in every list a dark elf should have.

But here is where the beauty of the druchii really shines, even with how good it is, we still can make awsome lists without it. That 225 points is enough to make an unkillable flying bsb, which also is overpowered...

My point is, Its the only thing in our book that is close to mandatory, but we have awesome substitutions if you want!

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:33 pm
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Quote:
Imao its the only thing that is mandatory in every list a dark elf should have.


"Imao?" Does that stand for 'In my arse off' or 'In my arseing opinion'? (sorry, too tempting to flag that up!)

The Cauldron of Blood is by no means mandatory. It is useful, sure, but at 200 points it really eats into your hero allowance (40% of your hero points in a 2k game) and it's a support machine, not a fighting one.

The buffs are great, but for 200 points you could happily take another 20 RxBs, or a full, fully buffed unit of cold one knights, or a nasty melee fighting hero, or a hero with liftaker.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:30 pm
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Red... wrote:
The buffs are great, but for 200 points you could happily take another 20 RxBs, or a full, fully buffed unit of cold one knights, or a nasty melee fighting hero, or a hero with liftaker.


...None of which can do as much as a Cauldron can when it comes to getting the most out of your other units on the table? I'm also curious how you fit a buffed unit of Cold One Knights into 200 points. 5 knights with full command and any magic item or magic banner will basically put you right at 200 points, if not more. In addition, as has been mentioned, you still should find points for a BSB somewhere in the list.

I very much agree with the logic that if you're buying a BSB anyway, then the Cauldron's a good purchase. The only really compelling argument I see against the Cauldron is if you really like a Pegasus Master and can't find room to make him into a Dreadlord. The Cauldron's good, but going overboard on characters is bad.

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:08 pm
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Quote:
None of which can do as much as a Cauldron can when it comes to getting the most out of your other units on the table?


True, but a cauldron by itself does little or no damage (relies on your opponent attacking it). So yes, a cauldron is great at support and I personally almost always take one. But it is a support only machine, with all that that implies.

Quote:
I'm also curious how you fit a buffed unit of Cold One Knights into 200 points. 5 knights with full command and any magic item or magic banner will basically put you right at 200 points,


Ah, sorry, by full I meant enough models to make a legal unit.

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Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:05 pm
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
None of which can do as much as a Cauldron can when it comes to getting the most out of your other units on the table?


True, but a cauldron by itself does little or no damage (relies on your opponent attacking it). So yes, a cauldron is great at support and I personally almost always take one. But it is a support only machine, with all that that implies.

Quote:
I'm also curious how you fit a buffed unit of Cold One Knights into 200 points. 5 knights with full command and any magic item or magic banner will basically put you right at 200 points,


Ah, sorry, by full I meant enough models to make a legal unit.


Cavalry only need 5 models to make a full unit, and 5 coldone knights only set you back 135 points. Add full command, you are set back 175. This leaves you 25 points, so standard of murder or war banner work nicely

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Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:08 pm
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
None of which can do as much as a Cauldron can when it comes to getting the most out of your other units on the table?


True, but a cauldron by itself does little or no damage (relies on your opponent attacking it). So yes, a cauldron is great at support and I personally almost always take one. But it is a support only machine, with all that that implies.

Quote:
I'm also curious how you fit a buffed unit of Cold One Knights into 200 points. 5 knights with full command and any magic item or magic banner will basically put you right at 200 points,


Ah, sorry, by full I meant enough models to make a legal unit.


If your master bsb is in combat again the best he can do is 3 attacks at s6 and add one combat res point. Now, say you give the blessing to the BG who are 7 wide, that's 7 s4 (assume ap). Against rank and file units, those 7 attacks mean more than the 3 s6 ones. The more models you kill, the less ikely your opponent will be steadfast. As a support machine, your opponent ahs to dedicate a unit to take the Cauldron oout and a unit to take on your unit as compared to using both of his units to take out a unit with the bsb. Suppose he decides to dual charge your unit, even with a BSB there chances are you will lose combat and the best you can hope for is you pass your breakteast. Now your COB can help your countercharging unit. The damage the COB deals is done by making other units more lethal.

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Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:14 pm
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Meteor wrote:
All in all, the simplest answer to the original question is NO.

No you do not need a CoB to have a competitive list, and no you are not handicapping yourself by NOT taking one. CoB is NOT a staple unit in every list, nor are Hydras.

On the contrary, I find it is good practice to not rely on these effortless units to play your games because it will enhance your tactical skills and makes you think outside the box to tackle all sorts of challenges in a different way.

Some people also simply do not enjoy making a near deathstar like unit, be it for their own enjoyment, or for the enjoyment of their opponent. A combined 600+ point ASF CoK bus does become lame when you can hold off a horde of GW Khorne Marauders when charged and then break them in the next round of combat.

I have tried lists without the typical powerhouse units, and DE can still win games without them no problems.

So once again. Is a CoB mandatory? Does it make one's list weak by not taking one? No it isn't and no it doesn't. - As long as you take units or characters that further helps you gain CR to win combats then it is fine. CoB is one method to mitigate CR loss or improve CR gain, other units or heroes you take can do that too.



As for your dilemma overmind, if that mage is the only one you have, then no I wouldn't recommend you to drop her because you do need some form of magical defense, however meager it is, to block off some nasty spells your opponent may throw at you. The main reason why I would take a CoB is if it was going to be my BSB, otherwise, I'd just take a master on foot with the BSB. At least he will be able to help boost the Ld of one of my unit, and provide some strong attacks. If you were going for a straight up 200pt CoB then no I wouldn't bother. Ask yourself, do you REALLY need it? Does it significantly enhances a unit or two when you do buff them?

If you want to try it, then sure, go build a new list with it in and have a few goes. Maybe once you've had your fling with it, you will be able to better decide. Everyone has their own taste and style, I don't take a tooled up Lv4 either, but I don't replace it with a dragon haha. So just because people take a CoB BSB, doesn't mean you need to too.


May I ask what a competitive list would look like if it doesn't contain a COB, COK or Hydra? The person did not know why the COB was of use as compared to a normal BSB and thus my post. Its obvious that you advocate the use of different builds and lists and granted that any most DE list works, there are simply people who wish to use a list that is consistent no matter what. I can surely make and Executioner list with no ASF hag with Dark Riders and Bolt Thrower work and "challenge" myself but it is no more different than using Hydras as all units have their own inherent weaknesses. I've lost two Hydras by turn 3 in a tournament even though they are considered undercosted and overpowered. Had it been another 300+ point unit the outcome would have been the same but my options would have been limited. How did I manage to turn it around? I had another unit though may seem "typical" make up for that lose as they were dependable.

I'll agree that a COB is not mandatory, no one said it was. But to say that not all lists need a Hydra is something else. Imo all DE should take atleast one simply because its the sure Rare choice whose points happen to be on the low unless you are using a themed list. The "strong" units we have will not always be as strong as they are now and for people who have been playing DE for almost a decade now I say enjoy it while it lasts. There was a time when Dark Riders were king and everybody uses them. Now It's rare to see tables with one unit let alone two who was a staple back then. Same with Bolt Throwers. Hydras were more costly then with no regeneration, no hatred and what nots and were considered usable only for beast themed lists. Now its the other way around. What is considered good in this edition didn't even make it close to what was considered good an edition alone so again enjoy it while you can as there will come a time when the neglected units will shine and everyone else will use them then. I swear there will come a time when RHB Corsairs will be a no brainer as well as the return of Executioners to an all comers list. I'd even dare to say that Manticores will then be viable again.

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Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:44 pm
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Ichiyo1821 wrote:
May I ask what a competitive list would look like if it doesn't contain a COB, COK or Hydra?

Spam core. It's why Skavens do so well, they have heaps and heaps of units and bodies with solid Ld to hold them in place.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
The person did not know why the COB was of use as compared to a normal BSB and thus my post.

Well I was just answering the original post, so don't take it personally dude.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Its obvious that you advocate the use of different builds and lists and granted that any most DE list works, there are simply people who wish to use a list that is consistent no matter what.

Once again, I was just answering the original post, since PJEOs was asking about feedback from people who don't use a CoB and blah blah blah. One's list would have to be different from the standard lists if they're not to use the common units because well...CoB imo, heavily shapes a list.

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Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:58 am
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Quote:
If your master bsb is in combat again the best he can do is 3 attacks at s6 and add one combat res point. Now, say you give the blessing to the BG who are 7 wide, that's 7 s4 (assume ap). Against rank and file units, those 7 attacks mean more than the 3 s6 ones. The more models you kill, the less ikely your opponent will be steadfast. As a support machine, your opponent ahs to dedicate a unit to take the Cauldron oout and a unit to take on your unit as compared to using both of his units to take out a unit with the bsb. Suppose he decides to dual charge your unit, even with a BSB there chances are you will lose combat and the best you can hope for is you pass your breakteast. Now your COB can help your countercharging unit. The damage the COB deals is done by making other units more lethal.


Not disputing any of that. But what happens if you don't have that unit of black guard or equivalent available? My point about the COB is that yes, it is an excellent support unit, but by itself it is limited (can't charge, can only move 5", etc). Again, as already stated - I think its excellent support and I do usually take one, but to ignore its limitations is short sighted.

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Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:43 pm
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Meteor wrote:
Spam core. It's why Skavens do so well, they have heaps and heaps of units and bodies with solid Ld to hold them in place.



No, the reason Skaven is successful is because slaves are 2 points each with SiN on top of having the ability to shoot units engaged to them. DE can do this momentarily with Spears but nowhere as effective because we still prefer not to lose them.

They have massive tools to complement having lots of cheap core troops, we don't thus they are horde, we are elite.

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Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:28 am
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