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What do you use as a bunker for SacDagger Sorcerres? 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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So what do you use? The obvious answer is i think spears. If you have your SS as general, the obvious is spears with +1Ld Banner. But even then that block of spears should be sitting away from danger meaning you have +- 500pts (200pts in wariors, 300 in sorc) just sitting there.

And then what if you use dreadlord as general? You dont need banner so heres my thought: Would it be better using Xbows? Yeah, its 11pts killed per dice but the rest can actually do something, not simply sit there. And since you will probably use those in 10x2 formation, those guys will be even better protected from misscast pies.

What are your thoughts?


Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:03 am
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Black Guard
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I think you don’t need to make your spears 200 pts big if you know they will just sit around. Or how many of them are you going to sacrifice?
If they become too small (shot down or whatever) you still can send your sorceress to nearby xbows.


Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:06 am
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Shade

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I used to use my 20 man x-bow block for my dagger sorc. I honestly wouldn't lose that many models over the course of the game due to the fact I'd be running her out of the unit before they recieved a charge from something nasty.
I no longer use the Dagger but if I did, I would either use my old setup or take about 14 spears and have them be 10 wide+4 in the back so miscasts and templates wouldn't wreck them.


Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:24 am
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Slave on the Altar

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spears, run metal lore, have second sorceress running shadow.

3+/5++ str. 8, 6 points each


Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:49 am
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Black Guard
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Blackfrost is right, 20 xbwmen is the best unit for your sac dagger sorceress.

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Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:46 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I run a block of 59 spears, and have an assassin just in case. The sorceress uses lore ofdeath sos I expectsome return for my cost. I am thinking of switching out flame banner fot the one that raises LD for more staying power.

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Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:20 pm
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Highborn
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My RxB often get targeted, since they pull off a nice sum of arrows. So I buncker her in the spears. But when CC is on, i place her in RxB

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Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:57 am
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Noble

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I run my Shadow level 4 in a unit of 15 spears with a musician, they deploy in a single line behind my battleline. If she's my general, they also get a standard bearer with the Standard of Discipline.

20 xbows really isn't the best place for your level 4, and 20 xbows is not as good as 2x10 unless you're running Lore of Fire.

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Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:16 am
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Cold One Knight

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tmarichards wrote:
I run my Shadow level 4 in a unit of 15 spears with a musician, they deploy in a single line behind my battleline. If she's my general, they also get a standard bearer with the Standard of Discipline.

20 xbows really isn't the best place for your level 4, and 20 xbows is not as good as 2x10 unless you're running Lore of Fire.


Thank you for your input but im actually lacking something like "20xbows is not as good as 2x10 BECAUSE....."
Lots of people agrees 20 RxBs is better than 2x10 because a) you can stick there standard for blood and glory scenario and 20man block can take some damage before giving it up. b) points denial c) 20man unit can easily reform into 5x4 to hold against some hunter unit and can beat it. d) with such a block you can charge in late game and disrupt ranks, etc...
The obvious advantage of dividing fire is not such a big plus in 8th ed. at least not for me. To take down something big like sfinx, Stank, BigAssSpider, etc. you need A LOT of arrows, blocks of infatry gets bigger so can take some shots too...


Kuanor wrote:
I think you don’t need to make your spears 200 pts big if you know they will just sit around. Or how many of them are you going to sacrifice?

True, but still, even like a 15man-spear bunker means your SS efectively costs like 390pts. And in that case you can still take 2/3 strong RxBs because how many of them are you going to sacrifice? :D Which actually was my first inpulse to do the math and some thinking.

Pretzalcoatl wrote:
spears, run metal lore, have second sorceress running shadow. 3+/5++ str. 8, 6 points each


Theres no way they have 3+/5++ As for 6 pts ;) As for the idea, sounds really nasty but im trying not to rely on magic too much. If so i would much rather prefer miasma+pit ;) :D

saintofm wrote:
I run a block of 59 spears, and have an assassin just in case. The sorceress uses lore ofdeath sos I expectsome return for my cost. I am thinking of switching out flame banner fot the one that raises LD for more staying power.

Sounds awesome but very very costly. How do you use such a unit on the battlefield?


Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:44 am
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Noble

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In my opinion, 2 units of 10 are better than 1 of 20 for the following reasons:

1. Double the deployments- gives you greater flexibility, a big unit can be avoided more easily in both the deployment and movement phases.

2. Double the flexibility- you can shoot twice as man targets, or combine the fire and still have the same amount of shots.

3. A unit of 20 can be pinned down, and is expensive- if your opponent wants to go after 2 units, then it'll take them twice as long.

4. A unit of 20 can be stopped shooting by a single flying unit/character etc, whereas stopping 2 units requires twice as much.

5. There are so many good choices that you don't need the xbows blocks to be fighting, if you do then that's more of a problem with the list selection in general rather than this specific issue.

6. For Blood and Glory you can still take 2 standards, which are then harder to get hold of.

However, the times I would take a unit of 20 is when I already have a couple of units of 10 and I'm taking enough Fire magic to have a good shot at getting flaming sword.

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Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:20 pm
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Noble

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In my opinion, 2 units of 10 are better than 1 of 20 for the following reasons:

1. Double the deployments- gives you greater flexibility, a big unit can be avoided more easily in both the deployment and movement phases.

2. Double the flexibility- you can shoot twice as man targets, or combine the fire and still have the same amount of shots.

3. A unit of 20 can be pinned down, and is expensive- if your opponent wants to go after 2 units, then it'll take them twice as long.

4. A unit of 20 can be stopped shooting by a single flying unit/character etc, whereas stopping 2 units requires twice as much.

5. There are so many good choices that you don't need the xbows blocks to be fighting, if you do then that's more of a problem with the list selection in general rather than this specific issue.

6. For Blood and Glory you can still take 2 standards, which are then harder to get hold of.

However, the times I would take a unit of 20 is when I already have a couple of units of 10 and I'm taking enough Fire magic to have a good shot at getting flaming sword.

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Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:20 pm
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Cold one knights! :roll: Really this is a silly question. I use whatever unit she is in. Since she's on foot, it can only be corsairs, spears, crossbows or BG. No-ones gonna use BG, so you choose from your core. Spears are marginally the better of the three since you can get more for the points, corsairs are more survivable to ranged attacks and crossbows can do something other than provide power dice. None of the three is going to ruin your chances of winning a game.

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Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:56 pm
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Warrior

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I am in the minority but I run my sorceress in a small group of 11 handbow corsairs. I run it 6x2. I rarely have her threatened by combat and the stand and shoot scares most of my opponents off . The people I play with generally do not go small unit hunting and if they do they use small units which are usually vulnerable to the handbows. If battle seems inevitable and not winable she just leaves them as the meat shield they are.


Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:23 am
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Highborn
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tmarichards wrote:
In my opinion, 2 units of 10 are better than 1 of 20 for the following reasons:

tmarichards wrote:
1. Double the deployments- gives you greater flexibility, a big unit can be avoided more easily in both the deployment and movement phases.
Agreed but that's why you have Harpies and Dark Riders for that. It's not a good idea to setup your RXB's first anyway as a smart opponent can simply feed you false drops too and deploy on the other side where your RXb have to move to get in range.

tmarichards wrote:
2. Double the flexibility- you can shoot twice as man targets, or combine the fire and still have the same amount of shots.

Not so applicable in this edition as you need to wipe a unit out to gain VP. Sure you can say you use them to thin down a unit before going into close combat but following that logic, it is still better to allocate all your shooting on one unit first before switching targets.
tmarichards wrote:
3. A unit of 20 can be pinned down, and is expensive- if your opponent wants to go after 2 units, then it'll take them twice as long.
On the contrary a unit of 10 is easier to take down. With a unit of 20, people think twice about charging a unit that can stand and shoot with 40 shots on top of that, one can opt to swift reform the RXb's if he's expecting them to be charged anyway and with 20 strong, you have a good chance of being steadfast. I've held Bloodthirsters and Dragons with a unit of 20 RXBmen, something 10 RXBmen can't do. It won't actually take twice as long it will make it worse. Suppose you get charged, the 10 man unit will die for sure, may cause panic to another unit and grants the enemy a sure overrun to wreck your lines and he is safe from your other shooting units.

tmarichards wrote:
4. A unit of 20 can be stopped shooting by a single flying unit/character etc, whereas stopping 2 units requires twice as much.

Read above, this is false. If anyone is charging in with a character at 10man squads he is probably wearing good armor 1+ to 2+ and being a character he has a good number of attacks at high strength along with the mount's attacks. Take for example the cheapest example. A HE hero with a elven steed. He makes 3 attacks at s5-6 then a s3 attack with the steed.Very cheap hero hitting on 4's with re-rolls wounding on 2's. Say he got lousy rolls and deals 1 wound, the steed makes his. 2wounds + charge and obviously + for flank. You have a banner deal no wounds. You lose by 3 test on a 5. Now in this example we've used a highly unlikely scenario as no one uses a setup this weak and yet the 10 man squad can't do anything what more if the character was actually carrying something nasty or riding something as nasty. That's an easy 100+ points there on top of the disruption it can do.
tmarichards wrote:
5. There are so many good choices that you don't need the xbows blocks to be fighting, if you do then that's more of a problem with the list selection in general rather than this specific issue.

That's the beauty of RXBmen in 20's it can be a shooting unit and when they no longer have targets or need to help out, they can reform into a 5x4 formation and contribute to static combat resolution.
tmarichards wrote:
6. For Blood and Glory you can still take 2 standards, which are then harder to get hold of.
Again this is not true. It's so much easier to panic/wipe out a 10 man squad than 20. Besides what's the point in wasting points to give both units banners only to get them wipe out easily to magic and shooting themselves. If you use 4 units of 10 RXb and give them banners that's 40 points. Quite a lot just to have an extra 2 banners that will get wiped out twice as fast.

tmarichards wrote:
However, the times I would take a unit of 20 is when I already have a couple of units of 10 and I'm taking enough Fire magic to have a good shot at getting flaming sword.



The only situation I would want them to be split up is when I have to shoot at Fanatics and a unit that has 3 models left that I was not able to catch after them failing their break test. Aside from that you will always be better using 2 units of 20 RXBmen than 4 units of 10. Using 2 units of 10 is ok if their use is only for fast cav hunting or protecting warmachines from them. If you use only 20 anyway and not much else shooting, they really won't influence the game that much.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:35 am
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Noble

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I'm sorry, but I still really just don't agree. Looking across the entire UK tournament scene of 8th edition, I can only think of one top player who has recently run units of 20 xbows (Ben Curry at Tempest: Ragnarok).

I've used both fairly extensively at several tournaments apiece, and I have always found the smaller units to be much better.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:01 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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I think of this:
there are 6 rounds, each with a minimum of 2 dice given to either side.
you need a 4 for PoD (I know. I'm talking before any adjusting.) The greater majority of spells that are dangerous to cast max out in mid 20's.

Btw: Sac Dag (something I don't usually use heavily) makes the Slaan's Becalming Cogitation a BLEEEEESSSSSSSIIIIIIIINNNNNNNG lol

So what I was saying is: you just need to beat a number and only really need to worry about 18 and 24 for the most part. if you NEED to be rolling the big stuff in the beginning.

Ergo, if you NEED 6 dice worth of killing, you'll KNOW by all the ones, and you are NOT getting that spell off. which means...

29 naked Spears for up to 2750, below 2000 it's over kill....but who NEEDS to use the dagger at that range?

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:11 am
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Noble

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You'll only really need stab 2-3 times on average per phase, often less and rarely more. 15 is fine, 20 is better if you're playing uncomped games and might run into Skaven.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:13 am
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tmarichards wrote:
I'm sorry, but I still really just don't agree. Looking across the entire UK tournament scene of 8th edition, I can only think of one top player who has recently run units of 20 xbows (Ben Curry at Tempest: Ragnarok).

I've used both fairly extensively at several tournaments apiece, and I have always found the smaller units to be much better.


You are aware that the meta changes depending on the trend you have in your area. I run 40 RXB in my lists with Shadow support and they have won me tournaments with their versatility. Euro tourneys are comped most of the time as opposed to here where you can expect to face all sorts of WAAC lists.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:02 am
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Diablo wrote:
saintofm wrote:
I run a block of 59 spears, and have an assassin just in case. The sorceress uses lore ofdeath sos I expectsome return for my cost. I am thinking of switching out flame banner fot the one that raises LD for more staying power.

Sounds awesome but very very costly. How do you use such a unit on the battlefield?



The numbers are to give the sorveress numbers to work with as she's never going to run out of victems unless warriors of chaos or Blood Knights charge the unit. The numbers aslo make getting panic harder, though the Standard of Disalin and/or Pearl of bleakness will also deal with that problem.

The sze is also to either intimidate others from attacking, or garner all the attention. Either way, I want this unit to stay back out of the main fight for as long as I can.

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:16 am
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Cold One Knight

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Sounds to me like a HUGE point sink/waste having almost 600pts unit + 285+pts lord sitting somewhere in the back...


Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:42 am
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Diablo wrote:
Sounds to me like a HUGE point sink/waste having almost 600pts unit + 285+pts lord sitting somewhere in the back...


Actualy, my Supreme Sorceress is riding on a pregasus with the Black Staff and Talismon of Preservation

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Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:21 pm
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Cold One Knight

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saintofm wrote:
Diablo wrote:
Sounds to me like a HUGE point sink/waste having almost 600pts unit + 285+pts lord sitting somewhere in the back...


Actualy, my Supreme Sorceress is riding on a pregasus with the Black Staff and Talismon of Preservation



Ok still 600pts unit + 160+pts char...


Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:07 pm
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Corsair

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I put my SS with sac dagger in a small unit with warriors 15-20 (FC).

Warriors are cheap to sac and you can stay way back (unlike with crossbowmen). This way you are greatly protected, which is no small thing. You can stay out of range from dwellers & snipespells while casting long range shadowmagic.

I have rarely died with this bunker unless I got massacred or rolled a misscast result of 2-4.


Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:07 pm
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