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Cauldron of Blood and deployment 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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It's funny how when you watch other people's games, you see all of their mistakes. Yesterday I was watching a fellow Druchii throw down against a rowdy bunch of Orcs and Goblins. And I noticed the Druchii player, at the end of his deployment phase, deployed his characters. But he deployed his Cauldron of Blood at the same time. And I never thought about it until that exact moment but the Cauldron of Blood is not a "character" but instead it is a "war machine". Effectively that means it gets deployed at the same time as Reaper Bolt Throwers or, if you're like me and don't use RBTs anymore, it is likely your only war machine deployment and can therefore be deployed at any time. Essentially it gives us another free deployment in our efforts to out-deploy our enemies!

I know I've been deploying it incorrectly up until now and I'm betting 99% of the people out there are too! Incidentally I suppose this would also apply to the Anvil of Doom which undergoes a similar transformation.

Now while I'm quite certain what I've just written is correct, this second part I'm not sure about. In my head, a scary place where many things become jumbled and confused, it makes sense to me, reading the RAW that there is a distinct difference between a "Death Hag" and a "Cauldron of Blood". They are two completely different types of units. As only a "Death Hag" or "Master" can act as the army Battle Standard Bearer, my question is can a War Machine be a BSB? If I were to ask someone to point out where their Death Hag is and they pointed to their Cauldron of Blood, I'd say "no, that's not a character, that's a War Machine". If a Dwarf player pointed to his Anvil of Doom and said it was his General, I would quickly point out that the General is the "character" with the highest leadership. An Anvil of Doom is not a character, it is a war machine. Does the same logic apply? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it but I would definitely appreciate feedback!

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:26 pm
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In the case of the BSB the Death Hag becomes a crew model for the cauldron so she is still part of the model and can therefore carry the standard.

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:29 pm
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I see your point here but I think you are incorrect this time for two reasons.

As you said the cauldron of blood is listed as a warmachine BUT it is also listed as an upgrade for the Death Hag. This makes me think that the Hag brings the cauldron to the fight and not the other way around.

Also since it is stated clearly in the DE army book on page 51. at the Cauldron of Blood entry under the rule "Attendants" that the whole thing is deployed at the same time as characters.


Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:20 pm
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It's true that the CoB is purchsed as an upgrade to a character but in the process the character seems lost. She can't charge, can't join units, can't challenge, and can't be singled out to be targetted by spells. She doesn't even have the unit type "character" anymore. Is there any RAW to back up the other side of the argument?

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:56 pm
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character isn't a unit type, its simply a character, your master's unit type is infantry, if his mounted on a cold one its cavalry, if mounted on a pegasus its monstrous cavalry, if mounted on a chariot its chariot with some exeptions as it is for a manticore, although what i don't realy understand in this edition is that your master in a chariot doesn't work like chariot crew (but does replace one) but the death hag with a cauldron does work like a regular crewmember.

fact remains she is a character and is still called a death hag even with the cauldron. also the option to take her is still under characters. if it where a warmachine it would be special or rare like 6th

i mean, open up your big rulebook p486 and look up the unit types for a assassin a dreadlord a sorcerres its all infantry not character.

I have seen this question several times already, but it should be clear that character is NOT a unit type, although i guess previous edition, one called characters or core or special units, that the units unit type, but in 8th this isn't.
its a warmachine character since its selected as a character, has the bsb upgrade listed (and theres no exeption for combo's ), it can be your general if it isn't your bsb. and it can be given a cauldron, which is also listed in characters. as a character upgrade. just like a mount.


Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:38 pm
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See! That's RAW!! :D

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:50 pm
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And here I thought this was about "tactics" on how to deploy and move the COB... 8)

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Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:07 am
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tactics should be easy, make sure its behind your main blocks, in 12 " of your khainites (or not depending, sometimes stubborn isn't good) and then let the girls drag that giant bowl of blood with statue behind the rest of the faster army


Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:04 am
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Interesting read about the cauldron, got another question about it.

Dwellers Below on the cauldron. Auto-fail or test as death hags strength? Because it is a warmachine with no strength i would say it is an auto-destroy.

Which considering the amount of life magic users i face might be a reason to leave it at home.


Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:11 pm
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IIRC, as the fact its a war machine takes precedence I believe it fails. BRB pg 108 saying that war machines fail all characteristics test except for Toughness and Leadership. I think the fact that a character is part of the crew is irrelevant.

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Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:15 pm
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Laddyn wrote:
Interesting read about the cauldron, got another question about it.

Dwellers Below on the cauldron. Auto-fail or test as death hags strength? Because it is a warmachine with no strength i would say it is an auto-destroy.

Which considering the amount of life magic users i face might be a reason to leave it at home.


it fails, and thusly dies. but really dwellers on cauldron is a rare and risky occasion since it usually requieres the boosted version for 24 inches, which carries a big risk. Intrestingly enough you can use I for other things non test. for instance the new sepchular stalkers each do a altillery dice st 1 hits with no as allowed on a model, but they don't use tougness, they use I to determine the to wound, which would be i 6-8


Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:06 pm
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flash29 wrote:
tactics should be easy, make sure its behind your main blocks, in 12 " of your khainites (or not depending, sometimes stubborn isn't good) and then let the girls drag that giant bowl of blood with statue behind the rest of the faster army


I was referring to tactics such as using the COB as a flank or rear guard for example not strategies.

Example A, use the COB to guard a unit's rear when charging. Should it get charged ,the small frontage means that I gets less attacks coming in, has Terror, strikes first and dishes quite a number of attacks, the clincher is being a BSB it gets the +1 combat resolution AND since it is a warmachine only 6 models get to strike it and has no rear or flank when determining combat resolution. I have used this tactic to ward of potential flankers and countercharges. People always assume that you get all your attacks in the COB and they count the bonuses for flanks etc until I remind them that it is a warmachine.

Example B, since the COB is a warmachine, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can use it to deter shots from pesky skirmishers and scouts. Block a unit's LOS to your fragile unit, the Cauldron and statue will most likely obscure your unit, now they either move to remove that penalty but either way they receive -1 to hit for moving, then should they attempt to shoot the COB instead, no matter what they do unless the kill the BSB, the COB stays there as it will not panic. Should they charge the COB, again only 6 models can hit it, being the BSB negates the charge +1 bonus then most likely the Hag and crew can dish enough wounds to win.

Example C, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can quick reform to face the direction you want then move 5". As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform. Most likely being the BSB itself on top of ld9 you are pretty safe doing it. Now with the added range because of displacement you can do both example A and then add an inch or so to give a better spread of your bsb bubble. And no its not modelling to your advantage as warmachines use the base they are supplied with or a base that is closest to its size for which chariot bases are perfect.

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Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:12 am
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Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Example C, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can quick reform to face the direction you want then move 5". As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform.


Only units containing musician can quick reform...


Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:48 am
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Diablo wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Example C, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can quick reform to face the direction you want then move 5". As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform.


Only units containing musician can quick reform...


That's true, but the CoB, being a single model itself, is free to pivot at any time like monsters and chariots do. No need of reforming :twisted:

phierlihy wrote:
She can't charge, can't join units, can't challenge, and can't be singled out to be targetted by spells.


She is still a character and has to accept challenges (even if she cannot issue one herself), which is many times crucial. Beware of this slight disadvantage.


Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:15 pm
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She can't challenge or be challenged there's a FAQ out about character and war machines

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Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:57 pm
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Sorry to brake it but the cauldron officially doesn't have a base like most (all?) warmachines you don't allign, you keep your direction your going and count as being in combat as soon as you touch it. Note that this is great when playing shades and harpies of course. also note only 6 models may attack a warmachine and its immune for thunderstomp attacks. its also stubborn ld 9, its great as a rearguard, or to prefent overruns. it's terrorcausing abilty makes it even better against rear charging troops who usually arn't in general or bsb range and don't have a amazing ld.

as for tactics, thats all i think you can do with it , a rearguard. it still can't take a full unit, and 225 points +100 if killed in combat(bsb) is a lot to lose while it can be easily prevented. it shouldn't see any combat, but its presence can be used as a threat. Mine has killed varhulfs, spinxes, rank and files, and everything else to stupid to relieze the peril. but impact hits or allot of attacks can devestate crew, enough to be taken out late game and cost you allot of points. It is a support unit, don't try to let it be something its not. pit of shades and dwellers also insta kill it.

Keept back enough to not be in danger as with dark elves, what rear charge are you afraid off that wouldn't get passed the cauldron?


Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:18 pm
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Pettka wrote:
Diablo wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Example C, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can quick reform to face the direction you want then move 5". As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform.


Only units containing musician can quick reform...


That's true, but the CoB, being a single model itself, is free to pivot at any time like monsters and chariots do. No need of reforming :twisted:


Thats why i quoted the part "As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform." but you are 100% true :)


Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:16 pm
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Pettka wrote:
Diablo wrote:
Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Example C, assuming you use a Chariot base, you can quick reform to face the direction you want then move 5". As far as I know there are no restrictions as to what unit can quick reform.


Only units containing musician can quick reform...


That's true, but the CoB, being a single model itself, is free to pivot at any time like monsters and chariots do. No need of reforming :twisted:

phierlihy wrote:
She can't charge, can't join units, can't challenge, and can't be singled out to be targetted by spells.


She is still a character and has to accept challenges (even if she cannot issue one herself), which is many times crucial. Beware of this slight disadvantage.


Yes that was what I meant, been deep into 40K lately and I'm messing up my terms... :roll: Also thank you for the insight yes I forgot about that one, you can no longer challenge the BSB as she becomes part of the crew yadda yadda. Now isn't this more interesting?

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:17 am
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flash29 wrote:
Sorry to brake it but the cauldron officially doesn't have a base like most (all?) warmachines you don't allign, you keep your direction your going and count as being in combat as soon as you touch it. Note that this is great when playing shades and harpies of course. also note only 6 models may attack a warmachine and its immune for thunderstomp attacks. its also stubborn ld 9, its great as a rearguard, or to prefent overruns. it's terrorcausing abilty makes it even better against rear charging troops who usually arn't in general or bsb range and don't have a amazing ld.

as for tactics, thats all i think you can do with it , a rearguard. it still can't take a full unit, and 225 points +100 if killed in combat(bsb) is a lot to lose while it can be easily prevented. it shouldn't see any combat, but its presence can be used as a threat. Mine has killed varhulfs, spinxes, rank and files, and everything else to stupid to relieze the peril. but impact hits or allot of attacks can devestate crew, enough to be taken out late game and cost you allot of points. It is a support unit, don't try to let it be something its not. pit of shades and dwellers also insta kill it.

Keept back enough to not be in danger as with dark elves, what rear charge are you afraid off that wouldn't get passed the cauldron?


No one is really claiming it is a combat unit per se. We are just throwing around what else you could use the Cauldron for aside form the obvious. As far as aligning is concerned, it still has a front and a flat one at that (the base of the Cauldron itself). Mine really hasn't killed much but it did hold a fully decked Bloodthirster will killing blow for 3 turns. Talk about resilience (and a bit of luck hahaha) :roll:

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:36 am
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