Special choices question

Poorflory · Post by **Poorflory** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:26 pm

Hello all, just joined. Posted my intro. Right, now to the question.

I have a 1500 pt army at the moment. I'm looking to branch out but I can't decide between Witch Elves or Executioners.

What I have (minus eq, as that tends to change):
Sorceress (played as level 3, de lore)
Sorceress (played as level 2, lore of shadows)
2x 13 Repeater Crossbows (One sorceress in each)
5 Dark Riders w/repeater crossbows
5 Cold One Knights w/ full command
9 Harpies
6 Shades
War Hydra

I also have a dreadlord on a cold one, but I never use him.

I have a cauldron of blood on the way, as well as two assassins.

I know I should throw more core in there, probably spearmen. But I can't decide on a special choice to go with.

Also, are there any decent models that aren't insanely expensive for either witch elves of executioners? I mean, damn...$22 for 5? That's awful.

Thanks in advance.

Thenick18 · Post by **Thenick18** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:29 pm

What is your list you play with, if what you have listed is your list, you need to drop a character, at 1500, you really should only be running one character, if you must have a 2nd, it should be a BSB, not a 2nd mage.

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:19 am

I really like executioners, but they need to be in a really big unit so there are enough to strike back and do damage. I run a unit of 30 in horde formation, but that's a 400 point unit I only use in games of 2500 or more. I think witches are a better choice in smaller games since they can work in small units.

As far as models go, someone on this site converted some from plastic spearmen. Try the search function.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:01 am

I'd really go for witch elves. The reason is that while the Executioners can be quite good, they absolutely need to get buffed up to work. You have to get the ASF banner on them, and should also get +1 A with the CoB to make them worth their points, and also field a big unit of them... 20-30 maybe.

The Witch Elves on the other hand, are great without upgrades like that. They can and will handle themselves perfectly, even in smaller numbers (Although they might be shot to death quickly). Personally I fielded 3 troops of them with 5 in each in minor battles, and they worked great. They work even better in a big squad with banner of murder though.

Let the Sorcs, Knights and Hydra do the high strength damage, and let the witches do the massacre :p

Sisstros · Post by **Sisstros** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:06 pm

Both Executioners and Witch Elves need support from the Cauldron and magic get the best from them. Black Guard are probably the only combat unit in the army that can be left without support and still make a good account of themselves. Executioners risk being killed off by enemies with high numbers of attacks, before they can strike; Witch Elves will bounce off T4 enemy units of comparable points.

I am very fond of Executioners as well and run a unit of 30 them or a unit of 12 Knights as one of my main combat blocks. I think they work well at least in part because I use the Lore of Metal and have the opportunity to boost their armour save to 3+ as well as giving them the Cauldron ward save.

I accept I'm going to lose a few men before I strike back but can still be confident that the casualties will be light and that they will still win the combat.

If you are going to take Dark Magic as your main Lore you could run an Executioner unit with a Death Hag and the ASF banner, thinning the enemy out before they can strike being protection enough.

However if you are going to take Shadow as you main lore I would argue that Witch Elves are almost certainly the stronger choice. You can offset their main offensive weakness of having low strength with Withering and Mindrazor. There main defensive weakness of not having armour won't matter too much because they have so many attacks per model that even if only the front 10 from a unit of 30 actually get into combat, with the two spells mentioned above, they will still run through anything.

Best of luck.

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:15 pm

Omnichron wrote:The reason is that while the Executioners can be quite good, they absolutely need to get buffed up to work. You have to get the ASF banner on them, and should also get +1 A with the CoB to make them worth their points, and also field a big unit of them... 20-30 maybe.

Actually, you do NOT want the ASF banner on a unit of Executioners. The reason being is that the only model that can carry it and still join the unit (a Death Hag) is a Toughness 3, 2 wound model with no armor save and at best a 5+ ward. This model is way too easy to kill. Execs do need large numbers though to absorb casualties, and the support of a Cauldron is a big help. I often go for the 5+ ward instead of +1 attack since I have a 3-deep horde formation and every model kept alive by the ward save is an extra attack, the ward not only keeps more of my models alive it effectively generates more kills as well.

Poorflory · Post by **Poorflory** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:14 pm

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Any chance someone has a link to the thread of coverting spearmen to executioners?

That might be the deal breaker...

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:17 pm

I wish I was paying $22.00 for 5 metal minis.
It's $30.00 and $35.00 for rank and file and command respectively in Canada, even with the $ almost at par.

I'd go Black Guard personally but witch elves over executioners

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:23 pm

I dispute the Death Hag BSB dismissal, as I've done lots of times before. You will often annihilate the enemy with your ridiculously powerful I5 unit before they can strike back at ur hag, she can often be kept out of harms way by putting her on the dge of the unit, even if she is killed she costs just 150 points and odds are you have wrecked whatever unit that killed her so badly that you have more than made your points back there, most other players will forget to target her, and several other reasons too.

That said, yes, BG are the best all round special choice. Get them next.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:38 pm

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Actually, you do NOT want the ASF banner on a unit of Executioners. The reason being is that the only model that can carry it and still join the unit (a Death Hag) is a Toughness 3, 2 wound model with no armor save and at best a 5+ ward. This model is way too easy to kill. Execs do need large numbers though to absorb casualties, and the support of a Cauldron is a big help. I often go for the 5+ ward instead of +1 attack since I have a 3-deep horde formation and every model kept alive by the ward save is an extra attack, the ward not only keeps more of my models alive it effectively generates more kills as well.

Hmmm... I agree. I don't find the points for the death hag to be worth it. And I do see the use of executioners more now than I did just a week or two ago. However, I feel that the numbers of casualities the executioners will take can be so much compared to what they can deal with so few attacks. I'd love to get my witch elves into a squad of executioners for sure. Not only are they less points, but the numbers of dead executioners would be just delicious. Of course, you'd never run your executioners into such a squad, but shiz happens.

All in all, it depends on what you need compared to the rest of the army, and from what I can see of what PoorFlory have, I don't see any meatgrinders that can churn through big blocks. I'd still put my money on Witch Elves.

Then again, you could get the BG's... they don't have the potential damage output of the witch elves against lesser foes (Nor the top toughness monsters), but I always find them up ontop of things in almost all situations. An awesome unit for sure.

Poorflory · Post by **Poorflory** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:46 pm

First, thanks again everyone. It's really nice to belong to forum that isn't completely terrible. (not to imply you're terrible at all..quite the opposite)

Second, I think after all is said and done I'll probably go with witch elves. I found some decent deals on ebay. After what's been said here I'll probably pass on executioners.

Thanks again. I'm playing a friend this weekend (bretonnians) I'll probably have a "witch elf" unit (made from skeleton warriors...scary) and see how they do.

Post by **Drainial** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:21 pm

In fairness you should keep in mind that all units are situational and WE more than most. They are unlikely to shine against knights.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:31 pm

Yes, heavy armor can be their bane, although you can get killing blow with the cauldron (Less optimal than frenzied Corsairs with killing blow, but still nice), and also have the banner of murder.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:43 am

Seeing that you are adding to your existing force, it's better to take 5 more COK and or WE. If you combine Execs and COK, they will eat your army point allowance. You have to choose between COK and Execs but not both in one list otherwise you will not have enough bodies left. If you go BG, take 14 or max 20 then probably WE but you may need to take the 5 man COK out. Oh btw just my opinion, if you do go to higher pointages, you may have too much light elements and may need to trim them down for more solid blocks.