Stubborn champion congaline?

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:03 pm

and then challenging to avoid any contact

As already covered though, you can't challenge with a champion to avoid contact. Your enemy can decline your challenge and then choose whether to allocate his rank and file attacks onto either the champion OR the unit.

Monstrum · Post by **Monstrum** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:25 am

^
ok, but they still only get 2-3 in base contact instead of the full unit. maximize contact!

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:30 am

Yup, but if its a horde infantry or cavalry unit then you are looking at 6/9 attakers (6 for 25mm base models, 9 for 20mm). That's 6/9 attacks from single attack models, 4/12 for models with two attacks each (remembering just one supporting attack each from the second and third rank models) and a whopping 10/15 attacks for models with three attacks each.

Monstrum · Post by **Monstrum** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:45 am

i dont understand your point

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:45 pm

My point is that a singlefile unit led by a champion can still be exposed to a large number of attacks, even though its frontage is so small.

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:43 pm

If it survives a salvo from a single shooting unit in the first place.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:48 pm

Oh, and anyone who thinks that a stubborn unit is guaranteed to hold should have a word with my Dwarven Hammerers, who have a suprisingly high predilection for running kicking and screaming off the table after even the measliest of brush-ups. Even stubborn units with leadership 9 have a 1 in 6 chance of failing their test and running away...

Post by **Calisson** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:58 pm

So we all agree that the stubborn conga line is not highly effective nor very expansive.
Compare to the unkillable dreadlord.
What you get is what you paid for.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:22 pm

Red... wrote:Oh, and anyone who thinks that a stubborn unit is guaranteed to hold should have a word with my Dwarven Hammerers, who have a suprisingly high predilection for running kicking and screaming off the table after even the measliest of brush-ups. Even stubborn units with leadership 9 have a 1 in 6 chance of failing their test and running away...

And my coKs with a leadership of 9 spend half the game stupid.

Monstrum · Post by **Monstrum** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:56 am

i dont know if any of you play bloodbowl, but the amount of times u roll double skulls (1/36 chance) or even quad skulls (1 in 1296!!) is ridiculous. it seems like statistics and averages go insane when it comes to gaming, thats why i don't like unreliable troops- animosity, stupidity, etc, its best to be completely avoided

Ryric · Post by **Ryric** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:28 am

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Better question is...

Why

bother?

Is it legal? Yes
Is it in the spirit of the game? No
Is it bound to be popular and accepted? No
Is it viable? No
Does DE have other good options and a good/strong AB aside from this? Yes

I will never use this tactic. Ever. Even if it means I will lose a tournament. If it comes to a point where I would need to use such "tactics" I will probably rethink if I should be even playing Dark Elves or table top gamess at all. Just my opinion.

The spirit of the game is a very nebulous term. I (as a dwarf player) find that people who face my 40x warriors or hammerers complain that hordes are unfair or not in the spirit of the game, yet when I bring 5+ war machines, they complain that gunlines are not in the spirit of the game either. Of course, such people have no answer for how I should build an army list then, when the only two things that dwarves do exceptionally well in eighth is hordes and war machines.

If I bring an unkillable dwarf lord (1+ rerollable, 4++, 2++ vs fire, immune to poison/KB), that's not in the spirit of the game either.

Some people will claim anything that does not favor them or their preferred playing style is not in the spirit of the game. One of the best examples is the players (almost always elves of one form or another) who were exceptionally fond of the MSU style that 7th edition favored. Their opinions, frequently voiced, state that playing with deathstars or hordes is inappropriate or unfair.

Quite honestly, there are a few things in this game that are pretty low, namely the unkillable dreadlord, the slayerpedo (though not the lorpedo), and the old power scroll. However, face it: we play with the rules we are given or we alter them to suit our local group. Play the hand you're dealt by the edition rules and, if you wish to play with a different playing style (an admirable choice, IMO), invent tactics that work.

Sorry if this is perceived as a 'rant', but quite honestly there are way too many people claiming to be the authority on what was intended.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:49 am

You can rant all you want, we are all entitled to our opinions. This is a forum, yes? Personally I just feel that using a "congo-line" is a gimmick strategy and I hate the idea of it being used for DE. Like I've said, it's doable but on the receiving end you're bound to raise an eyebrow for such "unconventional tactics". I don't see why a POK
Dreadlord was even mentioned as its "issue" is of another thing. Bring your Dwarf lord and kit him the best you can as should all generals who wish to be competitive would and no one would even care as it what the game is.

As for the spirit of the game, simply put, the said tactic is stretching the game mechanics to the farthest reaches that will sooner or later will become obsolete when they decide that Crown of Command is too strong or whatever for this edition or the net blah blah which is one of the reasons I dislike it. I play WHFB for two reasons, I am a fantasy genre lover and I love strategy games of all kinds whether they be tabletop games, card games or RTS games on the pc ad seeing a Stubborn Elven congaline is like someone counting cards in a Casino only that it's legal.

The last say on congalines, if you feel like it is a valid viable tactic, by all means use it but I will tell you that in the long run if you rely on it, you'll miss all the opportunities for you to develop sounder tactics that won't rely on tricks or edition bloopers.

Ryric · Post by **Ryric** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:56 pm

I should state that I am also building a DE army, which is why I'm trolling/lurking here.

I personally wouldn't use this tactic, and would probably grumble if it were used against me (though as a dwarf, grumbling is required for just about anything). I wouldn't get irritated at an opponent bringing his conga line, I would just shoot it or make sure I could overrun it. No big deal to me.

In my book, it's too weak of a tactic to use.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:42 pm

And my coKs with a leadership of 9 spend half the game stupid.

XD

(though as a dwarf, grumbling is required for just about anything).

As a dwarf or as someone who plays with a dwarf army? I love the idea that I'm exchanging posts with someone who is off to polish their battle hammer and head off into the hills to bash some goblins...

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:17 am

Ehakir wrote:Why would it be a lame tactic? This tactic just uses the rules as they are. Have you never seen people use units of 5 empire flaggelants just to hold up an unit for a turn? If not so, what do you think of a Lord with the Crown of Command? That's just about the same!
A lot of people around here invest about 200 points in an unkillable lord which is meant to hold up any unit the enemy has, after which people consider a unit of 60 points (5 WE + champ) to be 'against the rules' and cheesy. What the hell?

It is not the same as you can use the Dreadlord against any army and any opponent. The Congaline, not so.

Ryric · Post by **Ryric** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:27 pm

Red... wrote:
(though as a dwarf, grumbling is required for just about anything).

As a dwarf or as someone who plays with a dwarf army? I love the idea that I'm exchanging posts with someone who is off to polish their battle hammer and head off into the hills to bash some goblins...

Touche, however I am short and do like bludgeoning weapons, so I could almost qualify. Sadly, I have no gromril though.

Scyloc · Post by **Scyloc** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:30 am

Hello everyone.

The most important thing to keep in mind imho is the context of the gaming community you play in.

By reading the posts here, it seems most are in a gaming community where a ‘house rule’ or a spoken or nonspoken agreement exists between the players, that a congaline is considered ‘bad play’.
If you play in a gaming community where X is considered bad play. It is generally a very bad idea to do X.

But if you play in a gaming community where for instance a congaline is considered a valid tactic, by all means use it. It can be an effective tool when used correctly.

The important thing, as mentioned above, is to have a clear consensus on what is considered ‘bad play’ in your gaming community. And react accordingly.

Personally I play both in friendly environments, where I would never consider using a congaline, and in a super competive environments, where a congaline is commonplace and perhaps even encouraged.

Now when you discuss a specific tactic like conga-lines. It is a tactic clearly within the rules. And to call it inherently bad play, does not really serve a purpose. Allthough it is always interesting for most gaming people to know how what other communities consider bad play. But why try to belittle other communities, that do not share that view?