Suggestions for good magic defence in 8th ed
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:36 pm
As a player who has always disliked magic in warhammer, I am often more keen to get a good magic defence than I am to get a good magic offence. In 7th ed I used to run a level 1 with two dispel scrolls and a champion or character with the ring of hotek. Combined, the two were usually pretty good at reducing the impact of enemy magic on my game.
Well, now we are firmly into 8th ed and I am still struggling to find a good solution to enemy magic. Let me quickly chart out the options we have:
Seal of Ghrond.
One extra dispel dice is useful, but expensive for what it is. It certainly helps with magic defence, but not by a huge amount and not by enough to really change things.
Staff of Sorcery.
This has improved considerably as an item since 7th ed. The ability to dispel at +5 on your level 4 or +3 on your level 2 makes life a lot easier, but it takes up an arcane item slot and can't be taken by non-wizards. Again, by itself, it is still not enough to turn things in your favour.
Dispel scroll.
This is fairly much an auto-include in many people's armies. It is good value for points, but you can only take one and it takes up an arcane item slot and can't be taken by non wizards. Again, by itself it is still not enough to turn things in your favour.
Ring of Hotek.
The former saviour of my magic hating ways, this item has now been considerably nerfed. I've tried putting it on a Pegasus Master to go and fly near the enemy wizard, but he always seems to get shot to death in turn 1 or 2, and placing it amongst my rank and file troops means it takes several turns to get into position, as well as being relatively easy for an enemy wizard to move away from. It also no longer stops the spell from being cast and takes up precious magic item points (particularly if given to a BG or CoK champ).
Book of Ashur.
Like the staff of sorcery, but adds magic offense too. A nice item, but very expensive. Again, by itself, it won't really fix your magic defence reliably.
Null talismans and other magic resistance items.
Magic resistance is useful against some spells, but relies on your opponent a) targeting the unit with magic resistance item(s), b) using a damage dealing spell that doesn't ignore ward saves. Bearing in mind that some of the most potent spells in the game are now either hexes, augments or ward save ignoring damage spells, magic resistance as an idea is now something of a farce.
Feedback scroll.
Theoretically very nice - your opponent tries to cast a spell with 6 dice, you let it through and then smack him with the scroll. On average, his wizard should take two wounds, enough to kill a hero mage. However, in reality your opponent may well have a ward save on his wizard, reducing the number of wounds incurred, and 2 wounds on a mage lord is still not a kill. He can continue to cast as he pleases and, if he has lore of life or darkness, can even heal the wizard back up to full health again! The scroll is also very expensive, takes up a precious arcane slot and doesn't dispel the actual spell involved.
Scroll of leeching.
This is an okay scroll. Your opponent gets one spell off and then, hopefully, you can shut his magic phase down. Again though, it is expensive, takes up a precious arcane slot and doesn't dispel the actual spell involved. It also flouders if your opponent casts lots of spells using two or three dice, as you're spending a huge chunk of points to add a rather feeble two to three dice to your dispel pool, for one turn only.
Sivejir's Hex scroll.
Worst...Scroll...Ever. Okay, so it has some comedic value and, if your opponent rolls badly, can really cripple his magic offense. But, there is a mere 33% chance that a level 4 will be turned into a toad and, while there is a 66% chance that a level 2 will be turned into a toad, there is then a 50% chance of him returning to the game fully functional in subsequent turns. It is not reliable, far too expensive for what it does, doesn't block the actual spell it's used against and takes up an arcane item slot.
Sceptre of Stablility.
It's like a cheap dispel scroll that doesn't always work. It's not too badly priced, but it isn't reliable, can only be used once and takes up an arcane item slot.
Channeling.
You can take multiple wizards in the hope of channelling additional dispel dice, a strategy that can be buffed by taking the chanelling staff (note, the staff only applies to the dice roll of the wizard who has it, not all wizards). Problem is that the cost of fielding even multiple level 1 wizards start to add up quickly, and again it's not remotely reliable (3 wizards have a 50% chance of adding a single dispel dice each turn - hardly dependable or value for points).
Malekith's Spellshield.
This is a very specialised item that you are unlikely to see in games of less than 3k. It suffers from the same problem incurred by all MR items, mainly that it relies on your opponent casting a damage doing spell that doesn't ignore ward saves against Malekith. It is useful for damaging mages, but a saavy opponent will know about the item's effects and may cast any relevant spells at other units instead. It's also worth caveating that - arguably - Malekith's spellshield has now been replaced by the far worse common spellshield in the BRB. I don't know whether this is accurate or not.
Malekith's Circlet of Iron.
This adds one dispel dice to the pool (as well as one power dice), which - like the seal of ghrond - is useful, but not game changing and fielding Malekith is very expensive.
Hellebron's Amulet of Fire.
This dispels the first spell cast against Hellebron and her unit on the roll of a 4+ or more. This is actually fairly decent, as it will intercept all hex and damage spells against Hellebron's unit, but it has to be used after other dispel attempts have failed (meaning you have to make a gamble as to whether you let the spell go through and have a 50% chance of dispelling without wasting any dice, or use dice to try and dispel the spell first, wasting the Amulet of Fire). It also relies on you taking Hellebron - a very specialised character - and your enemy targeting her unit with spells. Finally, it only applies to the first spell cast against the unit, which limits its use (it also raises the question as to whether the AB is referring to the first spell successfully cast against Hellebron or just the first spell cast at her (e.g. the effect is wasted for the turn even if you dispel the first spell by other means)).
Mage hunting
by harpies, pegasus characters, lore of death, scouts and other means. This method has the advantage that you can neutralise your enemy's magic offense (and defence too!), resolving your entire magic defence problem. However, it relies on you managing to get a unit or spell into contact with the mage in question, wound them and have them fail any ward saves they might have. This can be trickier than it looks, particularly if your opponent has positioned his army well, and is unreliable at best.
Depressing conclusion
So, that concludes my whirlwind tour of the options for magic defence for dark elves in 8th edition as I see it. Hopefully this has been a useful summary.
The problem however is that none of the options seem very attractive, even when combined.
Currently, I usually take a level 4 with the staff of sorcery or book of ashur as basic. If I have the points, I will take a level 1 or 2 with a dispel scroll and throw the seal of ghrond into the mix somewhere too. This gives me +5 to dispel, one free dispel dice, and a dispel scroll.
My question to you folk at D.Net is whether this is the best I can do? I often struggle to contain my opponent in the magic phase, particularly if they have power dice boosters such as the banner of saphery (+D3 power dice each turn), a dragon mage (+1 free power dice for each spell attempt), a goblin shaman (every time you fail to dispel one of their spells, they can steal a dispel dice from you and convert it into a power dice on the roll of a 5 or 6), power familiar (+1 power dice) and many more besides. Many other armies seem to have very robust magic defence, what is the best we can do with ours?
Well, now we are firmly into 8th ed and I am still struggling to find a good solution to enemy magic. Let me quickly chart out the options we have:
Seal of Ghrond.
One extra dispel dice is useful, but expensive for what it is. It certainly helps with magic defence, but not by a huge amount and not by enough to really change things.
Staff of Sorcery.
This has improved considerably as an item since 7th ed. The ability to dispel at +5 on your level 4 or +3 on your level 2 makes life a lot easier, but it takes up an arcane item slot and can't be taken by non-wizards. Again, by itself, it is still not enough to turn things in your favour.
Dispel scroll.
This is fairly much an auto-include in many people's armies. It is good value for points, but you can only take one and it takes up an arcane item slot and can't be taken by non wizards. Again, by itself it is still not enough to turn things in your favour.
Ring of Hotek.
The former saviour of my magic hating ways, this item has now been considerably nerfed. I've tried putting it on a Pegasus Master to go and fly near the enemy wizard, but he always seems to get shot to death in turn 1 or 2, and placing it amongst my rank and file troops means it takes several turns to get into position, as well as being relatively easy for an enemy wizard to move away from. It also no longer stops the spell from being cast and takes up precious magic item points (particularly if given to a BG or CoK champ).
Book of Ashur.
Like the staff of sorcery, but adds magic offense too. A nice item, but very expensive. Again, by itself, it won't really fix your magic defence reliably.
Null talismans and other magic resistance items.
Magic resistance is useful against some spells, but relies on your opponent a) targeting the unit with magic resistance item(s), b) using a damage dealing spell that doesn't ignore ward saves. Bearing in mind that some of the most potent spells in the game are now either hexes, augments or ward save ignoring damage spells, magic resistance as an idea is now something of a farce.
Feedback scroll.
Theoretically very nice - your opponent tries to cast a spell with 6 dice, you let it through and then smack him with the scroll. On average, his wizard should take two wounds, enough to kill a hero mage. However, in reality your opponent may well have a ward save on his wizard, reducing the number of wounds incurred, and 2 wounds on a mage lord is still not a kill. He can continue to cast as he pleases and, if he has lore of life or darkness, can even heal the wizard back up to full health again! The scroll is also very expensive, takes up a precious arcane slot and doesn't dispel the actual spell involved.
Scroll of leeching.
This is an okay scroll. Your opponent gets one spell off and then, hopefully, you can shut his magic phase down. Again though, it is expensive, takes up a precious arcane slot and doesn't dispel the actual spell involved. It also flouders if your opponent casts lots of spells using two or three dice, as you're spending a huge chunk of points to add a rather feeble two to three dice to your dispel pool, for one turn only.
Sivejir's Hex scroll.
Worst...Scroll...Ever. Okay, so it has some comedic value and, if your opponent rolls badly, can really cripple his magic offense. But, there is a mere 33% chance that a level 4 will be turned into a toad and, while there is a 66% chance that a level 2 will be turned into a toad, there is then a 50% chance of him returning to the game fully functional in subsequent turns. It is not reliable, far too expensive for what it does, doesn't block the actual spell it's used against and takes up an arcane item slot.
Sceptre of Stablility.
It's like a cheap dispel scroll that doesn't always work. It's not too badly priced, but it isn't reliable, can only be used once and takes up an arcane item slot.
Channeling.
You can take multiple wizards in the hope of channelling additional dispel dice, a strategy that can be buffed by taking the chanelling staff (note, the staff only applies to the dice roll of the wizard who has it, not all wizards). Problem is that the cost of fielding even multiple level 1 wizards start to add up quickly, and again it's not remotely reliable (3 wizards have a 50% chance of adding a single dispel dice each turn - hardly dependable or value for points).
Malekith's Spellshield.
This is a very specialised item that you are unlikely to see in games of less than 3k. It suffers from the same problem incurred by all MR items, mainly that it relies on your opponent casting a damage doing spell that doesn't ignore ward saves against Malekith. It is useful for damaging mages, but a saavy opponent will know about the item's effects and may cast any relevant spells at other units instead. It's also worth caveating that - arguably - Malekith's spellshield has now been replaced by the far worse common spellshield in the BRB. I don't know whether this is accurate or not.
Malekith's Circlet of Iron.
This adds one dispel dice to the pool (as well as one power dice), which - like the seal of ghrond - is useful, but not game changing and fielding Malekith is very expensive.
Hellebron's Amulet of Fire.
This dispels the first spell cast against Hellebron and her unit on the roll of a 4+ or more. This is actually fairly decent, as it will intercept all hex and damage spells against Hellebron's unit, but it has to be used after other dispel attempts have failed (meaning you have to make a gamble as to whether you let the spell go through and have a 50% chance of dispelling without wasting any dice, or use dice to try and dispel the spell first, wasting the Amulet of Fire). It also relies on you taking Hellebron - a very specialised character - and your enemy targeting her unit with spells. Finally, it only applies to the first spell cast against the unit, which limits its use (it also raises the question as to whether the AB is referring to the first spell successfully cast against Hellebron or just the first spell cast at her (e.g. the effect is wasted for the turn even if you dispel the first spell by other means)).
Mage hunting
by harpies, pegasus characters, lore of death, scouts and other means. This method has the advantage that you can neutralise your enemy's magic offense (and defence too!), resolving your entire magic defence problem. However, it relies on you managing to get a unit or spell into contact with the mage in question, wound them and have them fail any ward saves they might have. This can be trickier than it looks, particularly if your opponent has positioned his army well, and is unreliable at best.
Depressing conclusion
So, that concludes my whirlwind tour of the options for magic defence for dark elves in 8th edition as I see it. Hopefully this has been a useful summary.
The problem however is that none of the options seem very attractive, even when combined.
Currently, I usually take a level 4 with the staff of sorcery or book of ashur as basic. If I have the points, I will take a level 1 or 2 with a dispel scroll and throw the seal of ghrond into the mix somewhere too. This gives me +5 to dispel, one free dispel dice, and a dispel scroll.
My question to you folk at D.Net is whether this is the best I can do? I often struggle to contain my opponent in the magic phase, particularly if they have power dice boosters such as the banner of saphery (+D3 power dice each turn), a dragon mage (+1 free power dice for each spell attempt), a goblin shaman (every time you fail to dispel one of their spells, they can steal a dispel dice from you and convert it into a power dice on the roll of a 5 or 6), power familiar (+1 power dice) and many more besides. Many other armies seem to have very robust magic defence, what is the best we can do with ours?