Filthing it up - Best No comp Dark Elves.

[Killerk]

last tournament this saturday, I left my hydra at home (forgot the extra box), So I had to make a list with what I had in my case, ended up with:

2x20 + 10 RXB's
2x20 BG
2x8 Shades,
2x5 harpies,
20 corsairs
pendant lord on foot,
big sorc,
little sorc CoB.

Came 4th (extra BG were not painted which cost me second, and third place)

Ben might start a new trend, 'cause I'm leaving my hydra at home in the next tournament, didn't mis it in this one, won't mis it in the next.

PS. I don't think that your BG will be safe, they will be hit with some kind of template (mortat, stone thrower exc.) before they get in to combat 80% of the time. While the hydra will most likely catch a pit of shades + what ever.

[Tmarichards]

After Tribute this weekend I really want to do a tournament year without a hydra- although, some compa do almost force you to take one...

[Atanatari165]

Two Hydras is good, but vulnerable.

If you run into Empire or Dwarves, or someone who can force through a Pit of Shades, Purple Sun or Crack's Call with reliability, or the Brass Orb, or someone with reliable Poison/Flaming shooting (or, in the case of Tomb Kings, Poisoned Flaming shooting) then the Hydras are done. If you go with two Hydras, you need Lore of Shadows and Pegasus riders to scare warmachines.

Yup, flickering fire of Tzeentch = Hydra kebabs. So too does Flaming sword of rhuin on a bunch of archers.

Seems like the main alternative to Hydras being suggested here is Shades. Well, Flickering fire of Tzeentch, or any other direct damage spell, or any shooting (no need for flaming) = Shade kebabs. I once faced a wood elf army with 80 GG and 10 Waywatchers, my shades evaporated without killing much of anything.

You are saying its vulnerable, but the Hydra is the toughest unit in the DE list. It can only really be hurt by flaming or initiative test stuff. Other major spells like Infernal Gateway, Dwellers, 13th, etc are no threat to it. With a bit of luck, your opponent will only get one threatening spell off at it before you get it into combat, and you just dispel it. Get your hydras into combat ASAP and you only have to deal with that stuff for 2 turns.

A unit of 5 shades OTOH is a sitting duck to any direct damage spell for the whole game, even something weak like a D6 fireball can force a panic test on them. 10 Shades is better and comparable to a hydra in point cost, but still takes a panic test after losing only 3 guys to spells/shots.

I like shades but I don't know how to keep them alive. The most they seem to do for me is force my opponent to waste time reforming to face them and blast them away. Admittedly this alone can win the game.

The other problem with shades is they just bring yet more S3 attacks which we already have tons of. The Hydras bring breath weapons and S5 attacks. If the other guy is relying on something to deal with them, all you have to do is kill that something (wizard, unit with flaming banner) and you win.

Not saying hydras are definitely better but I'd like to hear how you guys keep your shades alive. How do you use them?

[Red...]

I've taken to replacing Hydras with Chariots. 2 Hydras will set you back 350 points. Three Chariots will set you back 300 points. I prefer the latter. At T5, S5, with 4 wounds and a 3+ Armour Save, not to mention D6+1 impact hits and 2 RxB shots a turn, these guys are both very powerful and very good value for their points.

My issue with Hydras is that their effectiveness goes down a lot once they start taking damage. Sure, an S5 breath attack is monstrous, but a S2 one is pretty feeble. Now that combat is worked out in initiative order, if your opponent can pip off enough wounds from the hydra via shooting/magic (which is now pretty easy, given the proliferation of flaming attacks, which negate its regen for the entire phase), he can then easily finish it off in comba with higher initiative troops, before it even gets its 7 attacks back.

I don't think that shades and hydras are a good comparisson. One is for harrassing, war machine killing and mage killing, the other is for supporting charges and taking on light units all by itself. There's no comparisson (it's like comparing apples and oranges), and as such your attempt to do this is a bit off the mark.

Sure take one or two hydras if you want. But be aware of the risks, and don't be suprised if every few games you discover that they are easily killed or crippled without making any real dent on the game at all (even failing to soak up enough firepower to make it worthwhile).

[Atanatari165]

I've taken to replacing Hydras with Chariots. 2 Hydras will set you back 350 points. Three Chariots will set you back 300 points. I prefer the latter. At T5, S5, with 4 wounds and a 3+ Armour Save, not to mention D6+1 impact hits and 2 RxB shots a turn, these guys are both very powerful and very good value for their points.

My issue with Hydras is that their effectiveness goes down a lot once they start taking damage. Sure, an S5 breath attack is monstrous, but a S2 one is pretty feeble. Now that combat is worked out in initiative order, if your opponent can pip off enough wounds from the hydra via shooting/magic (which is now pretty easy, given the proliferation of flaming attacks, which negate its regen for the entire phase), he can then easily finish it off in comba with higher initiative troops, before it even gets its 7 attacks back.

I don't think that shades and hydras are a good comparisson. One is for harrassing, war machine killing and mage killing, the other is for supporting charges and taking on light units all by itself. There's no comparisson (it's like comparing apples and oranges), and as such your attempt to do this is a bit off the mark.

Sure take one or two hydras if you want. But be aware of the risks, and don't be suprised if every few games you discover that they are easily killed or crippled without making any real dent on the game at all (even failing to soak up enough firepower to make it worthwhile).

Definitely, I've been planning to try the triple chariot thing myself. I agree with all your points about the hydra. Even an S4 breath is not nearly as powerful as an S5. BUT, many players (e.g. Ben) are using those points on shades with great success and I don't understand how.

[Killerk]

Atanatari165 by replacing hydras with shades, you also have to replace your battle plan, because you have less cc, and more shooting. And all in all it comes out on a plus, it's easier to kill a hydra then to deal with the extra unit's.

[Madrid69]

Most people will be able to deal with 1 Hydra (flamming banner, spells, ...), but when you have 2, they'll HAVE to deal with the both of them before either one hits combat.

I think the thing with Hydra's is either take 2, or take none.