I have posted many times that I dislike sharing my secrets but having looked over the threads here I am thinking I need to share some. I have seen a very worrisome trend of folks thinking that our ability to send rounds down range is either not worth it or has problems against other armies ability to do the same. So I shall share some tid bits of how to counter battery fire and even maybe reawaken the fact that we have one the best none arty based firing armies available.
First lets talk about dominance of fire and how to hold it.
Large blocks of repeater crossbows with shields prove to be dead hard and hard to work against. Mortars are pretty much the only weapon that will reduce the fire these boys can generate once in position.
Hydras can deliver massive death with there breath weapons. Also can threaten most gun lines with out worry of falling down.
Harpies fall into the group of holding the dominance of fire. Many warmachines can and will fall prey to such annoying trash toy units.
Repeaters lets get a lil more into the term of into position. By this I mean moving up into range so that both ranks can reach. I often only single shot when I move up as I like hitting on 5's. Once that is done I will switch to multi shots. This can bring massive death and make it hell for light units to try and cross the field. Also once a unit of repeaters is in position you have the option to target many different threats. I myself like to target anything that can shoot back, this raises the dominance level of fire. The less units the enemy has that can fire the better.
Between this and the hydras working over units and harpies giving guns a hard time hitting. Even making a cannon waste a shot on grape shooting harpies. Instead of trying to cannonball snipe a character you can maintain the fire power. Once you have achieved firing superiority it makes everything else alot easier.
Foot units have to walk through a hail of fire, mages will run out of places to hide. In short our fire power does not come out of hard hitting shots, it comes out of throwing more rounds down range than anyone can manage. Sure wood elfs and high elfs can out range us and put the hurt on early on, but once you start throwing shots back they cant stand up to the return fire. A bolt action rifle while more accurate can not hold up to the sheer suppressing force that is cover fire.
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Rabidnid
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If you do choose to go ranged then fire is a great tool to maximise its effect.
I'm not a fan of shadow because of its generally worthless damage spells. Yes I know withering is great and Okkam's is the best thing since sliced bread, but it does very little damage in its own right.
Fire has flame cage and "dial a fireball" so it kills lots of stuff. Dropping 40 models in a turn with a couple spells isn't even that uncommon. It does not have any ignore armour spells which is why I stick with dark for the most part. Dark shuts down shooting, ignores armour, can be cast into close combat, and has a spell that may as well have been designed to kill warmachine crew.
I'm not a fan of shadow because of its generally worthless damage spells. Yes I know withering is great and Okkam's is the best thing since sliced bread, but it does very little damage in its own right.
Fire has flame cage and "dial a fireball" so it kills lots of stuff. Dropping 40 models in a turn with a couple spells isn't even that uncommon. It does not have any ignore armour spells which is why I stick with dark for the most part. Dark shuts down shooting, ignores armour, can be cast into close combat, and has a spell that may as well have been designed to kill warmachine crew.
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Demetrius
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Crossbows will only get you so far. I have found they can be amazing until you take on a T4 army, where their effectiveness drops dramatically. It can be suprising how little damage 30-40 dice at 5s to hit followed by 5s to wound actually achieves. Sure you can increase the effectiveness through Flaming Sword, Enchanted Blades or The Withering, but tbh those spells being cast on my crossbowmen are at the lower end of my priority list.
Furthermore, I have never used Fire but can see how it can be effective, it definitely looks like a good lore on paper. However I can see it suffering the same problem as crossbows, T3 armies will be destroyed by it but once you start casting it on T4 opponents or armoured troops, their effectiveness will no doubt drop.
On paper, I am all for direct damage spells, which is why last tournement I took Metal, mainly for Searing Doom as the rest of my list was lacking in the armour killing department (and to kill treemen/stanks). Anyway, I really missed Shadow because of its buffs and debuffs it provides as it is a great lore that synergises with our army. I played a lot of empire armies (3 actually) who all used Heavens which complmented their force (with rerolls 6s hex and reroll 1s augment). This made me realise how important hex's and augments are, they are not designed to kill directly but help your troops kill better. And in 8th edition, combat is where the game is decided, where you earn VPs because you have to wipe whole units, killing half a unit from shooting is not enough. Sure, Fire can kill a whole bunch of RnF troops, but at the end of the day those same troops will recieve augments and will likely beat your unaugmented troops anyway.
Anyway, Im glad that Fire and massed crossbows work for you Geist. However, its not all black and white and while they may work against some armies or players, they wont work against everything.
Furthermore, I have never used Fire but can see how it can be effective, it definitely looks like a good lore on paper. However I can see it suffering the same problem as crossbows, T3 armies will be destroyed by it but once you start casting it on T4 opponents or armoured troops, their effectiveness will no doubt drop.
On paper, I am all for direct damage spells, which is why last tournement I took Metal, mainly for Searing Doom as the rest of my list was lacking in the armour killing department (and to kill treemen/stanks). Anyway, I really missed Shadow because of its buffs and debuffs it provides as it is a great lore that synergises with our army. I played a lot of empire armies (3 actually) who all used Heavens which complmented their force (with rerolls 6s hex and reroll 1s augment). This made me realise how important hex's and augments are, they are not designed to kill directly but help your troops kill better. And in 8th edition, combat is where the game is decided, where you earn VPs because you have to wipe whole units, killing half a unit from shooting is not enough. Sure, Fire can kill a whole bunch of RnF troops, but at the end of the day those same troops will recieve augments and will likely beat your unaugmented troops anyway.
Anyway, Im glad that Fire and massed crossbows work for you Geist. However, its not all black and white and while they may work against some armies or players, they wont work against everything.
About multiple fire vs single shot. If you work out the maths it's quite strange what goes on.
So our RXBMen have a BS of 4. Take for example 6 guys, all able to shoot.
With no additional modifiers:
Single shot will hit on 3+. Therefor on average 4/6 will hit. = 4 hits.
Multishot will hit on 4+. Therefor 6/12 will hit = 6 hits.
With -1 to hit:
Singleshot will hit on 4+. Therefor on average 3/6 will hit = 3 hits.
Multishot will hit on 5+. Therefor 4/12 will hit = 4 hits.
With -2 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 5+. Therefor on average 2/6 will hit. = 2 hits.
Multishot will hit on 6+. Therefor 2/12 will hit = 2 hits.
With -3 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+. Therefor on average 1/6 will hit. = 1 hits.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 4+. Therefor 1/12 will hit = 1 hits.
With -4 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+ followed 4+. Therefor on average 0.5/6 will hit. = 50% chance to get one hit.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 5+. Therefor 0.67/12 will hit = 67% chance to get one hit.
With -5 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+ followed 5+. Therefor on average 0.33/6 will hit. = 33% chance to get one hit.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 6+. Therefor 0.33/12 will hit = 33% chance to get one hit.
You can see from this, that single shot is only ever going to give you an equal chance to get the same amount of hits as multishot. Frequently multishot gives a better chance.
Add the fact that if you get good luck, you can potentially cause a lot more wounds with mutishot.
Then there is no reason to ever use single shot.
I'm pretty sure I have this right.
So our RXBMen have a BS of 4. Take for example 6 guys, all able to shoot.
With no additional modifiers:
Single shot will hit on 3+. Therefor on average 4/6 will hit. = 4 hits.
Multishot will hit on 4+. Therefor 6/12 will hit = 6 hits.
With -1 to hit:
Singleshot will hit on 4+. Therefor on average 3/6 will hit = 3 hits.
Multishot will hit on 5+. Therefor 4/12 will hit = 4 hits.
With -2 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 5+. Therefor on average 2/6 will hit. = 2 hits.
Multishot will hit on 6+. Therefor 2/12 will hit = 2 hits.
With -3 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+. Therefor on average 1/6 will hit. = 1 hits.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 4+. Therefor 1/12 will hit = 1 hits.
With -4 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+ followed 4+. Therefor on average 0.5/6 will hit. = 50% chance to get one hit.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 5+. Therefor 0.67/12 will hit = 67% chance to get one hit.
With -5 to hit:
Single shot will hit on 6+ followed 5+. Therefor on average 0.33/6 will hit. = 33% chance to get one hit.
Multishot will hit on 6+ followed by 6+. Therefor 0.33/12 will hit = 33% chance to get one hit.
You can see from this, that single shot is only ever going to give you an equal chance to get the same amount of hits as multishot. Frequently multishot gives a better chance.
Add the fact that if you get good luck, you can potentially cause a lot more wounds with mutishot.
Then there is no reason to ever use single shot.
I'm pretty sure I have this right.
@Geist: Thanks Geist - that's a really helpful summary. I look forward to reading it through in more depth 
Also need to work my way through the v interesting responses to my other thread.
@Rabidnid and Demetrius: Interesting points also
@Infekted: The conversation about the stats multi versus single shot has been had a million times on here. Can we avoid turning this potentially quite useful thread into another debate about statistics please. If it's really a topic you want to explore, dig back in the archives for it. Trust me, it's been covered, many, many, many times.
Also need to work my way through the v interesting responses to my other thread.
@Rabidnid and Demetrius: Interesting points also
@Infekted: The conversation about the stats multi versus single shot has been had a million times on here. Can we avoid turning this potentially quite useful thread into another debate about statistics please. If it's really a topic you want to explore, dig back in the archives for it. Trust me, it's been covered, many, many, many times.
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Rabidnid
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Yep, multi shot is always better or at least equal to single shot. That plus the AP is why they are better than most other bows in the game.
The most important thing is to remember that shooting is just supporting and shaping the enemy prior to the final melee. Shooting will:
1/ kill fast cav and things like fanatics,
2/ limit the enemy's use of diverters, fliers and loose characters,
3/ thin out horde units potentially making them less able to claim steadfast.
Compared to using spears you are paying about 150 points for 35 RXB. It is an excellent investment against most armies and provides you will a range of additional options that spears simply aren't capable of.
The most important thing is to remember that shooting is just supporting and shaping the enemy prior to the final melee. Shooting will:
1/ kill fast cav and things like fanatics,
2/ limit the enemy's use of diverters, fliers and loose characters,
3/ thin out horde units potentially making them less able to claim steadfast.
Compared to using spears you are paying about 150 points for 35 RXB. It is an excellent investment against most armies and provides you will a range of additional options that spears simply aren't capable of.
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Ichiyo1821
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http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=69470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I have discussed about Crossbowmen tactics in other threads I will stress on this again. You need crossbows for the small but threatening annoyances other armies have and since the cost to upgrade them to say 20 wide is but a fraction of the cost with a spearman unit, the utility of RXBmen is worth it imo. As for going against other armies, I have mentioned the frequency of other armies to outshoot us, now they are only 3 armies where RXBmen when taken in masses might have a problem namely against Empire, Dwarves and Skaven HOWEVER, these are the same armies that you need shooting to take care of their shooting's effectiveness as augment by support units such as detachment, Pistoliers guarding his warmachines, Gyros etc etc. Yes you can argue that hitting on 5's wounding on 4s, 5s might not be your cup of tea but people forget that you shouldn't be aiming to kill a unit in 8th edition outright anyway. Look it up and see how many armies have armywide t4 then see their movement and you will realize that t4 units are mostly slow as compared to the number of armies that are t3 armywide. Out of the 14 armies, 9 of which are t3 armywide which can count as 11 if you consider Night Goblin themed and Skeleton VC themed lists and even 12 if you go against Marauder Horde WOC leaving you with just OK,LM and Dwarves at t4. Thin a unit down 1-5 models and that may be enough to deny that unit steadfast when your WE, BG, COK, Corsairs come crashing down on them. Bunker in that tower and get 360 degree vision of the battlefield and become a mage bunker as well for pure annoyance and board control.
With steadfast being priority for most armies, reducing an opposing unit's ability to outrank you before you get into combat is huge. We are elves after all gifted with high BS and WS but suffer from wars of attrition, what better way to overcome that than shoot the enemy before they even get the chance to deal damage to you? I can go on and on but one last thing before I go. Please be reminded the effect of actually having that much volume of fire on on your side then out yourself in your opponent's shoes. Deployment is so so important in WHFB that the match can be decided through deployment alone and with RXBmen firing lines we actively force the opponent to reconsider his deployment and gameplan sometimes even forcing him to come to your lines despite the obvious mismatches just to avoid the damage from shooting. You can disrupt his timing by forcing him to rush charges where the circumstances are in your favor. Try them out, proxy them a couple of games and see how different your usual opponents change and try to shift their tactics to adjust to you while you casually dictate the pace of the game and you might reconsider the hidden gems of RXBmen with or without magic support.[url][/url]
I have discussed about Crossbowmen tactics in other threads I will stress on this again. You need crossbows for the small but threatening annoyances other armies have and since the cost to upgrade them to say 20 wide is but a fraction of the cost with a spearman unit, the utility of RXBmen is worth it imo. As for going against other armies, I have mentioned the frequency of other armies to outshoot us, now they are only 3 armies where RXBmen when taken in masses might have a problem namely against Empire, Dwarves and Skaven HOWEVER, these are the same armies that you need shooting to take care of their shooting's effectiveness as augment by support units such as detachment, Pistoliers guarding his warmachines, Gyros etc etc. Yes you can argue that hitting on 5's wounding on 4s, 5s might not be your cup of tea but people forget that you shouldn't be aiming to kill a unit in 8th edition outright anyway. Look it up and see how many armies have armywide t4 then see their movement and you will realize that t4 units are mostly slow as compared to the number of armies that are t3 armywide. Out of the 14 armies, 9 of which are t3 armywide which can count as 11 if you consider Night Goblin themed and Skeleton VC themed lists and even 12 if you go against Marauder Horde WOC leaving you with just OK,LM and Dwarves at t4. Thin a unit down 1-5 models and that may be enough to deny that unit steadfast when your WE, BG, COK, Corsairs come crashing down on them. Bunker in that tower and get 360 degree vision of the battlefield and become a mage bunker as well for pure annoyance and board control.
With steadfast being priority for most armies, reducing an opposing unit's ability to outrank you before you get into combat is huge. We are elves after all gifted with high BS and WS but suffer from wars of attrition, what better way to overcome that than shoot the enemy before they even get the chance to deal damage to you? I can go on and on but one last thing before I go. Please be reminded the effect of actually having that much volume of fire on on your side then out yourself in your opponent's shoes. Deployment is so so important in WHFB that the match can be decided through deployment alone and with RXBmen firing lines we actively force the opponent to reconsider his deployment and gameplan sometimes even forcing him to come to your lines despite the obvious mismatches just to avoid the damage from shooting. You can disrupt his timing by forcing him to rush charges where the circumstances are in your favor. Try them out, proxy them a couple of games and see how different your usual opponents change and try to shift their tactics to adjust to you while you casually dictate the pace of the game and you might reconsider the hidden gems of RXBmen with or without magic support.[url][/url]
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Lord tsunami
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shooting based armies are for children. yes we can play shooting based armies and do it very well, but it has just about as much fun to it as playing yatze. you just keep rolling plenty of dice and hope for good results. a combat based army also does this when they reach combat, but the trick is to reach combat with the correct foe. that is where the movement phase comes in and THAT is where warhammer should be played (despite some bad changes that were made in 8th edition).
that is at least my opinion.
that is at least my opinion.
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Demetrius
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Lord Tsunami wrote:. that is where the movement phase comes in and THAT is where warhammer should be played
I dont think its up to you where the game should be played. There are four phases of the game (Move, Magic, Shoot, Melee) and they are all equally as important as eachother.
I agree with you, an entire shooting list is quite dull, especially for the other player. However, I think there is a little more to playing a gun line than rolling dice. Deployment is crucial, and target priority is even more so. A gunline will fall apart if the general makes a mistake in either area.
Balance is the key, especially with Dark Elves. We are capable to compete in all phases of the game, and our best builds are those that make use of them all. If you want combat, play WOC/VC. Want magic, play Lizards. Want shooting, play Dwarves/ Empire. If you want to do it all well, play Dark Elves
This week has been crazy busy, so not much time to write a detailed post, but
Absolutely, and this is where I fall down most! Any tips and suggestions on these two areas would be invaluable. How does one get around the problem of getting your RxBs in range, without jeopardising the deployment of the rest of your army. Do you aim at enemy shooters (to reduce the fire power coming back at you, but risk getting slammed by that big unit of knights) or do you aim at enemy shock troops (leaving you open to getting whittled down by opposing firepower)? Do you pick one target to concentrate on until it is destroyed, or whittle down opposing targets across the board - damaging them all marginally but maulling none of them? How do you deal with big horde units? Etc
Deployment is crucial, and target priority is even more so
Absolutely, and this is where I fall down most! Any tips and suggestions on these two areas would be invaluable. How does one get around the problem of getting your RxBs in range, without jeopardising the deployment of the rest of your army. Do you aim at enemy shooters (to reduce the fire power coming back at you, but risk getting slammed by that big unit of knights) or do you aim at enemy shock troops (leaving you open to getting whittled down by opposing firepower)? Do you pick one target to concentrate on until it is destroyed, or whittle down opposing targets across the board - damaging them all marginally but maulling none of them? How do you deal with big horde units? Etc
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Demetrius
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Red- Ive only recently started getting used to using crossbows properly in 8th edition, but after about 10 or so games with a block of them Ive found they are best deployed in the centre of your army (usually with a COB sitting behind it). Combat elements can be one either side of the unit, or going up a flank. The crossbows being in the centre of your battle line is crucial Ive found so they have access to multiple targets, stay in range, and most importantly dont get blocked by your melee units. Too frequently Ive deployed the crossbows either behind or on the flank, and they always just get their line of site blocked by my other units as they close the gap with the enemy. This just results in more modifiers to your already modified 'to hit' rolls, and become useless.
Well, thats my advice, maybe Geist or somebody who uses crossbow blocks more often can give you a better tip. But so far, that strategy has proved the most effective in my own playstyle.
Well, thats my advice, maybe Geist or somebody who uses crossbow blocks more often can give you a better tip. But so far, that strategy has proved the most effective in my own playstyle.
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Ichiyo1821
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Red... wrote:This week has been crazy busy, so not much time to write a detailed post, butDeployment is crucial, and target priority is even more so
Absolutely, and this is where I fall down most! Any tips and suggestions on these two areas would be invaluable. How does one get around the problem of getting your RxBs in range, without jeopardising the deployment of the rest of your army. Do you aim at enemy shooters (to reduce the fire power coming back at you, but risk getting slammed by that big unit of knights) or do you aim at enemy shock troops (leaving you open to getting whittled down by opposing firepower)? Do you pick one target to concentrate on until it is destroyed, or whittle down opposing targets across the board - damaging them all marginally but maulling none of them? How do you deal with big horde units? Etc
http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=69470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
There is no strict formula and it all depends on your list and what you need to take care of. If you have lots of rnf killers then maybe you can whittle down his hammer units. If you have high strength quality attack units maybe you can thin down his horde or units that can hurt your hammer units then grind his rnf. Shooting of DE compliments the army unlike say Dwarves and Empire where you can build a list on the shooting elements.
@Lord Tsunami
Do you realize that shooting can help you set up your close combat troops? If you have two units of shooters in either flank and you main combat unit in the middle who can swing either flank, doesn't it seem easier as your opponent might be hard pressed to get into combat with you as not to get shot? The beauty of Warhammer is you have different elements such as magic and shooting as well as other things that make the game tactical. If all armies just go melee then that would bore people to death. DE have good shooting that defies the 8th edition nerf to BS shooting so why say people shouldn't use them? Have you seen any other army that can field that many shooters and still be effective? Not a lot I guess. I admit DE excel in melee but we also excel in other aspects and that versatility is what gives us the edge otherwise we'd be nothing but frail Warriors of Chaos...
@Demetrius
I use 2 blocks of 2 in most of my lists and their position varies as there are a lot of factors (terrain, objective etc etc) but I mostly use 2 deployments.
Center heavy - Two units side by side making a firebase with the COB close by, I set it up that the tips of the farthest RXB unit is reached while still being in range of by COK. If I set up this way by BG,WE, COK and Hydra will be in ether flank depending on my opponent's deployment. If for example i guage that his right flank is weak and I can get rid of them in one turn I depoly there. If my opponent presses center then I go around his units and hit his flank with my hammers while the RXB in the middle shoot at whatever is coming. He he decides to shift his flank to face my strong flank, I still shoot his middle and gauge the time he will arrive to help his flank. If I manage to collapse his weak flank then my RXB reform to blocks and start marching up to help in the combat. Since I have cleared his weak flank, I have cornered his into one table quarter. By doing so I am exposing his units. If he chooses to go after the RXB and they hold (remember COB is nearby) I will get a free flank or rear charge with my hammer units. If he chooses to go after my hammers, I will dance a bit and wait to position my infantry blocks.
Flank guard - If I position my RXB to the side it means my opponent was trying to offset my deployment by doing a denied flank deployment. If he does this my main hammer unit stays in the center with a Hydra then I put one of my other hammer unit to either side beside the RXBmen depending on what he has on that flank. My center stays still inching slowly forward while I move the hammer unit on the loose flank.I use Shadow magic to slow the other. The RXBmen then shoot at his faster lighter elements so I ill not get redirected or shoot at one of his blocks that they can take out. My intention is to still collapse one of his flanks while my center decides where they need to be. The side that my opponent decides to charge will reform into a block and hold it while I swing my entire army around as DE possess the speed to do this. This deployment is more of a defensive one and I normally use it if my opponent has a lot of fast units as I can swing to either side depending on how he moves his troops. Basically the RXB go into defensive mode and shoot down fast cav, redirectors and small units that try to come from the either side that way I will never be a victim of pincer attacks. This is where their versatility shines. With parry saves and steadfast along with bsb re-rolls they can hold a flank for a turn or two giving me enough time to adjust to finish the unit I charged earlier.
Another trick I will share is this:
Place your self in your opponent's shoes. If you are approaching a flank with RXBmen you do two things, you rush up to minimize the number of time they get to shoot right so you take the shortest straight path to them. If he does this he risks leaving his center to reach my lines. Sure I will only get two turns of shooting at most but this means he will be at my area where my hammer units are waiting for a countercharge or attempting to charge him first.
If he hesitates and moves slower to that flank by trying to get out of my front arc, he is buying me time to kill his other units or reposition my units. Which ever scenario happens, I anticipate when I am going to reform OR move back that RXB unit diagonally backwards while my other flank swings around? Get the picture? To make it simpler, imagine a straight line pivoting at its center to face the opponent hitting me in the flank. It means I am killing one side of his army while the side that I am expecting the charge moves back wasting his movement and time. And yes I don't back up to my board edge, I back up diagonally against the unit in question keeping them in my front while the rest of my army swings around. Sooner or later he will reach the RXBmen and he may or may not wipe them out, the point is they did their job. I was able to manipulate his movement, weaken his mobility and opened a window for my hammer units to clean the rest of his army. If he does not adjust to my threat I will whittle his units down with RXBfire turn by turn by turn.
I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve with regards to movement and shooting that I have learned when DE played much like WE back in the older editions and I still manage to apply most of them now though slightly harder but the concept remains the same. I try to keep the game simple to avoid mistakes and concentrate on reducing my opponent's threats as fast as I can by forcing my opponent to move where I want him to move. That is what RXBmen in blocks of 20 do. They will not always kill their points worth but they do a lot more that earns their points back. Quite a steal for a mere 235 point unit.
Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8th Edition
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
W/D/L
86/1/5
New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0
9th Age
W/D/L
Vae Victis
Character kill count -182
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig
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Lord tsunami
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I dont think its up to you where the game should be played.
That is not a very clever or constructive argument. ofc i cant decide how other ppl should play the game, but i am entitled to an opinion and to express it.
Do you realize that shooting can help you set up your close combat troops?
thank you. I have played this game for 15 years now, and i have some basic grasp of how it works, thank you very much.
It is not that i am against shooting. in a normal 2,4k game i deploy 20-30 RXB, ~5 dark riders and ~5 shades (and a lvl 4 dark mage and a hydra if you count that). that is quite a lot of shooting. shooting is essential to us to eliminate enemy fast units and giving our fast units free reign. What i am against is the tendency to think that a gunline style of army is something to strive for.
The topic here seems to be "shooting is great, lets use more of it". My argument is "shooting is dull and largely luck-based. relying too heavily on shooting will prevent you from evolving as a commander". So by all means use shooting to help you out, but do not overdo it. it can be beaten by a fast and hard hitting army, or an endless army of low cost units. i do not think that many dark elf armies run the risk of including too little shooting to be both bun and functional. i do think that some (but mostly not DE armies) run the risk of the very opposite though.
Mod's note: very slightly edited. Calisson
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
Mod's note:
Could we make sure that this discussion stayed friendly and constructive?
Yes, everyone is entitled an opinion, which is as respectable as the opposite opinion.
Some people find some gaming styles boring, true.
But there is no "wrong" way to play as long as it is in accordance to the rules.
Thanks.
Calisson
Could we make sure that this discussion stayed friendly and constructive?
Yes, everyone is entitled an opinion, which is as respectable as the opposite opinion.
Some people find some gaming styles boring, true.
But there is no "wrong" way to play as long as it is in accordance to the rules.
Thanks.
Calisson
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Lord tsunami
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1308
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- Location: Behind you!
captain obvious will never be censored! 
Mod: Calisson
Mod:
CalissonI am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
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Ichiyo1821
- Highborn
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
Mod's answer:Ichiyo1821 wrote:My entire post was deleted?
You doubled posted.
I did erase the first post, which did not include the quote and had exactly the same wording as the second one.
For some reason, the second one was erased too. I imagined you erased it yourself?
Anyway, it did not bring much to the discussion from a tactical perspective, did it?
Calisson
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Rabidnid
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 3023
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
- Location: The Tower of Dust
Lord Tsunami wrote:shooting based armies are for children. yes we can play shooting based armies and do it very well, but it has just about as much fun to it as playing yatze. you just keep rolling plenty of dice and hope for good results. a combat based army also does this when they reach combat, but the trick is to reach combat with the correct foe. that is where the movement phase comes in and THAT is where warhammer should be played (despite some bad changes that were made in 8th edition).
that is at least my opinion.
Use shooting to clear diverters and other soft units out of the way of your advancing units, use lanes of fire to to intimidate the enemy and restrict their movement, or fire sacks to break specific unit and disable or eliminate unusually hard characters by running their unit off.
Mod's note: slightly edited.
@ all
Last warning before the topic is locked.
No more mockeries. No reply to mockeries. Even gentle.
Thanks.
Calisson
Last edited by Rabidnid on Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Luck is the residue of design"
As the creator of this mess let me see if I can clear a few things up.
First this is article is a reaction to people saying how our shooting is a waste or does nothing for them. Be it dark elf player or otherwise.
Second this is not about my lore of choice fire. This is about the entire use, utilization, maintaing and achieving an effect known as firepower. Firepower is all about having more shots down range than the other guy and keeping the status that way ie status quoe. I put more rounds down range than you and it stays that way.
Third, I am not saying that our fire power is great lets use more. Anyone who reads what I have said and takes that to heart needs to reread the entire thing. I have stated exactly what this is about. The effective use of firepower.
Now to address something slightly different.
Red, you say you are having problems deploying your repeaters to use them correctly. Then I must ask and have certain information. What exactly are you using as your firebase? Repeaters? With Shields? With out? Darkriders? Again with or with out shields? Shades? If so how many scouting not scouting? IE I need to know every single thing army builder knows when you make a list. Once I know this I can tell you how to use your repeaters where to use them and more vitally what to expect based on which encounters.
For example (this entire section will be based on my mastering of 28 man blocks). I take with most lists 2 28 man blocks or repeaters with shields and a banner. If I take 20 or less repeaters no banner, always shields. Also never go down to 14 or less as your fire effect becomes damn near worthless. That covers the basics of repeater block make up now onto usage.
Section 1 deployment, almost always behind a unit of harpies. 1 harpies are faster movers and can be moved out of LOS before you fire. 2 harpies by the rules will provide hard cover against some incoming fire, there unit width unless spread out will not be enough to cover the majority of your repeater block. If your astute you will understand that this means the harpies are at the 12 inch line and your repeaters are more likely at the 10 inch line. Thats ok. You will never have full power shooting on turn 1.
Section 2 what to do once deployed. If some one has vanguard on you. Do not move them fire with full power at the van unit. This will be one of the few times you can fire with full effect on turn 1. There are 2 reasons to unleash all your fire on a van unit. 1 its a threat and needs to be removed or failing that softened up asap. 2psychology reaction, seeing a unit removed that early in the game will shake up 7 out of 10 players.
Like all rules there are exceptions to the norm. Not all van units need killing right away, some you can wait and let them charge you and make them poof in a haze of repeater shots. Some times a van unit will be a distraction for a harder hitting yet softer unit behind it, like a giant. Baring all of this you can move onto normal protocol. Move up so that first and second rank are in range to fire, the entire time keeping in mind absolute maximum charge range of things you don't want to play with. Failing demons most things that you worrie about wont be doing a charge from beyond 20 inches. Now onto target selection.
Section 3, I have found over the years that if I take out anything that can shoot at me with effect that I must fire on them first. This does several things for you. 1 you now have more freedom to maneuver, this is massive as it allows for flanking with out having to be bothered with taking shots as you move into position or taking marching checks. 2 once you reduce there ability to fire back you can now reduce there fighting blocks with no fear of being shot back. Most armies don't have a unit that can properly fight a correctly tooled up DE fighting block. Add to the fact that you compound that with the fact that there fighting blocks are being constantly weakened as they try to make contact.....
Onto the exceptions part of this step(yes every stage has expectations warfare is like water and bruce lees marital arts constantly flowing always changing, guides like this are good but if you never change you will become stuck). There are a few reasons and units out there you would target over my diction of fire onto return fire units. A lords on single mounts, sure they will be well armored and able to soak alot of fire. But the more dice you make him roll the higher the odds of him failing all his saves. Again things like single stray giants, heros on flying mounts. In other words anything he has that works to distract or disorganize your formations is always worth an exception. Just make sure its not a bluff, ie the hero on a flying mount never charges always just flys about. Its a unit of 5 dire wolfs or 3 fell bats. Alright enough wall of text I have to go kick ass at the Alamo. Read well enjoy and good luck.
First this is article is a reaction to people saying how our shooting is a waste or does nothing for them. Be it dark elf player or otherwise.
Second this is not about my lore of choice fire. This is about the entire use, utilization, maintaing and achieving an effect known as firepower. Firepower is all about having more shots down range than the other guy and keeping the status that way ie status quoe. I put more rounds down range than you and it stays that way.
Third, I am not saying that our fire power is great lets use more. Anyone who reads what I have said and takes that to heart needs to reread the entire thing. I have stated exactly what this is about. The effective use of firepower.
Now to address something slightly different.
Red, you say you are having problems deploying your repeaters to use them correctly. Then I must ask and have certain information. What exactly are you using as your firebase? Repeaters? With Shields? With out? Darkriders? Again with or with out shields? Shades? If so how many scouting not scouting? IE I need to know every single thing army builder knows when you make a list. Once I know this I can tell you how to use your repeaters where to use them and more vitally what to expect based on which encounters.
For example (this entire section will be based on my mastering of 28 man blocks). I take with most lists 2 28 man blocks or repeaters with shields and a banner. If I take 20 or less repeaters no banner, always shields. Also never go down to 14 or less as your fire effect becomes damn near worthless. That covers the basics of repeater block make up now onto usage.
Section 1 deployment, almost always behind a unit of harpies. 1 harpies are faster movers and can be moved out of LOS before you fire. 2 harpies by the rules will provide hard cover against some incoming fire, there unit width unless spread out will not be enough to cover the majority of your repeater block. If your astute you will understand that this means the harpies are at the 12 inch line and your repeaters are more likely at the 10 inch line. Thats ok. You will never have full power shooting on turn 1.
Section 2 what to do once deployed. If some one has vanguard on you. Do not move them fire with full power at the van unit. This will be one of the few times you can fire with full effect on turn 1. There are 2 reasons to unleash all your fire on a van unit. 1 its a threat and needs to be removed or failing that softened up asap. 2psychology reaction, seeing a unit removed that early in the game will shake up 7 out of 10 players.
Like all rules there are exceptions to the norm. Not all van units need killing right away, some you can wait and let them charge you and make them poof in a haze of repeater shots. Some times a van unit will be a distraction for a harder hitting yet softer unit behind it, like a giant. Baring all of this you can move onto normal protocol. Move up so that first and second rank are in range to fire, the entire time keeping in mind absolute maximum charge range of things you don't want to play with. Failing demons most things that you worrie about wont be doing a charge from beyond 20 inches. Now onto target selection.
Section 3, I have found over the years that if I take out anything that can shoot at me with effect that I must fire on them first. This does several things for you. 1 you now have more freedom to maneuver, this is massive as it allows for flanking with out having to be bothered with taking shots as you move into position or taking marching checks. 2 once you reduce there ability to fire back you can now reduce there fighting blocks with no fear of being shot back. Most armies don't have a unit that can properly fight a correctly tooled up DE fighting block. Add to the fact that you compound that with the fact that there fighting blocks are being constantly weakened as they try to make contact.....
Onto the exceptions part of this step(yes every stage has expectations warfare is like water and bruce lees marital arts constantly flowing always changing, guides like this are good but if you never change you will become stuck). There are a few reasons and units out there you would target over my diction of fire onto return fire units. A lords on single mounts, sure they will be well armored and able to soak alot of fire. But the more dice you make him roll the higher the odds of him failing all his saves. Again things like single stray giants, heros on flying mounts. In other words anything he has that works to distract or disorganize your formations is always worth an exception. Just make sure its not a bluff, ie the hero on a flying mount never charges always just flys about. Its a unit of 5 dire wolfs or 3 fell bats. Alright enough wall of text I have to go kick ass at the Alamo. Read well enjoy and good luck.
Flyers for the win in 8th.
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
The Machine will grind you down.
The League of Extraordinary Druchii
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
The Machine will grind you down.
The League of Extraordinary Druchii
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Ichiyo1821
- Highborn
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
