Starting 30.5" back

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:38 am

So, I have an upcoming game of Warhammer against an opponent who regularly plays High Elves.

He usually has less units than me and always takes the high elf magic item of +1 to his dice roll to start with. That means he typically has a +2 advantage on the starting dice and - as a result - usually gets first turn (his devillishly good luck always helps too!).

His army is very shooting heavy. It is roughly as follows:

1 Level 4 Mage (takes the magic item of etheral and can choose own spells: he always takes lore of life with earth regen, throne of vines, flesh to stone and regrowth) (in with big lothern seaguard unit)
I Level 2 Dragon Mage (always has sword of rhuin and one other)
1 Cadyran (in with big lothern seaguard unit)
1 BSB with lots of defence stuff and the reaver bow (3xS5 shots with no AS allowed) (in with Phoenix Guard)
20 Archers (2x10) with flaming banner
35 Lothern Seaguard (5x7)
25 Lothern Seaguard (5x5)
1 Tiranoc Chariot
20 Phoenix Guard (3x7) with banner of saphery
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
8 Silverhelms
8 Shadow warriors

Most of this has the ability to shoot at me immediately, which means I endure an entire round of obliteration, before I even get my first turn.

Traditionally, as I am always out shot, I push my units as close to his as I can get, in the aim of closing the gap between us as quickly as possible. But it occured to me the other day - would it in fact be better to deploy exactly 30.5 inches away? That would mean he would either need to move and shoot with everything (except the repeater bolt throwers) rather than just the Lothern, or else be out of range on the first turn. I could then march forward 10" on my turn, bringing me to roughly 20.5" away.

Does that sound like a fiendishly clever plan, or have I completely lost it and that is the worst thing you have ever heard?

Archon_matt · Post by **Archon_matt** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:04 am

Suppose he moves forward to take the shots:
HE T1: 5" move, shoot at -1. 25.5" apart.
DE T1: 10" march. 15.5" apart.
HE T2: shoot normally. 15.5" still.
DE T2: march (to avoid risk of failing charge) - 5.5" apart.
Or charge - only a few units, at most, make the charge.
HE T3: Shoot moar.
DE T3: Charge.

Suppose you use your normal deployment:
HE T1: Shoot.
DE T1: Move - 14" apart.
HE T2: Shoot - 14" still.
DE T2: March - 4" apart.
Or Charge: a few more units make it than last time, but it's still not great odds.
HE T3: Shoot moar.
DE T3: Charge.

If this ^ is an accurate representation of 24" apart deployment, you may well have a decent idea. You're going to have to move for the first two turns *anyway*, so why not make his first turn -1?

Tmarichards · Post by **Tmarichards** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:05 am

If he has shooting list and you sit back, you're playing his game as well as letting him pick his targets. However, if he has a lot of great weapons, you're better off sitting back- High Elves are expensive enough that they can't do both very well.

As a general rule, I find that using shooting to kill Swordmasters and magic missiles to kill White lions (because they don't get their cloak advantage) let's you pretty much run straight over the army.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:53 am

I'd just blow the crap out of him with RXB and magic. Do you not have any shooting of your own? RXBs are better than long bows once they are within range.

All of his shooting is in 3 blocks, so chillwind and word of pain can stop the majority of his shooting after the first turn. Book of Ashur on a lvl 4 with dark might be a good idea as well. Add a lvl 2 with shadow for miasma or dark again and he will not be shooting much unless his magic phase is significantly better than yours

This is not to say that standing back outside 24" is not a good thing, just that standing another 6" back because of 20 archers is silly.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:31 am

I would deploy as close as possible and just cop the damage. He could shuffle backwards, making it harder to reach you, or even flee charges if necessary so you will want the best chance to charge him.

As Rabidnid said, use Dark Magic to nullify his shooting a bit.

Alternatively I could think of a few things that may help.
1- I see the Ring of Darkness coming in handy on your most important block
2- Our tough units like Knights, chariots and Hydras will laugh at his S3 shooting (bolt throwers may pose slightly more of a problem, but use hunter units to kill them early)
3- A couple of units of shades scouting up ahead could pose problem for your opponent. He has to deal with them early which will take pressure off your main battle line, and if he doesnt deal with them he can say goodbye to his bolt throwers
4- Harpies are golden for screening your own units.
5- A hunter peg master with COHG will be worth its points in gold.

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:22 am

You know what would make him a sad sad elf? 28 man blocks or repeaters. Once they move into postion they will send a staggering 40 shots per unit down range. His fire back wont kill off enough guys to stagger your rounds down range fast enough. You get 1 or 2 of those massive bricks out there and they will just hurl lead. Toss in a few units of harpies to go warmachine hunting, plus some shades and you will be wasting his fire base.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:40 am

Geist wrote:You know what would make him a sad sad elf? 28 man blocks or repeaters. Once they move into postion they will send a staggering 40 shots per unit down range. His fire back wont kill off enough guys to stagger your rounds down range fast enough. You get 1 or 2 of those massive bricks out there and they will just hurl lead. Toss in a few units of harpies to go warmachine hunting, plus some shades and you will be wasting his fire base.

Yep, I found that versus woodies. DE outshoot woodies something horrible. My woodie opponent went all melee, which reminded me why they don't need a new book

Treemen, treekin, dryads, glade guard and wardancers are very capable melee units.

Meteor · Post by **Meteor** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:08 pm

In relation to the first post, it's exactly why I take Dark Magic as main and Shadow magic as support. With Dark Magic I'll have Chillwind and hopefully Word of Pain that I can throw lots of dice at to disable one or two shooting platforms.

Further support that with Miasma from Shadow and a one die cast and you have yourself three CC spells for shooting.

Otherwise take a few units of Harpies, and use them for missile screening. -1 for being Skirmishers, -1 for long range, most of his missile troops will be firing on 5's. It'll help distract at least a unit of his from firing into your valuable BG, unless he goes for other easier targets instead, which is even better.

Another tactic I use is, if fighting units with 30" range, just deploy up to the line. Use your bunker of 7pt spears as a meat shield to soak up the incoming fire on the unit(s) you want intact to get up there and face smash his army. Then push as hard and fast as you can.

Use terrain to your advantage, forests, buildings.

Deploy carefully, draw out his units so you know where to stack your army to be as far from one flank of his shooters as possible. If you can prevent him from using one shooting platform effectively for a turn, that's 30 less shots coming your way for a turn.

All these little things you can do before the first turn begins will help you dramatically in surviving. Remember, deployment wins half your battle for you already.

Determine which units you want to keep intact and protect them. You will suffer casualties before you get there, once you accept that fact, and know which unit(s) you want kept alive until you reach his line, you won't be as demoralised at the sight of your army dying.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:16 am

What's your list?

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:02 am

just a note: if he has the etheral magic item on the mage, he cant join units. a chillwind will make short work of that guy

also, it makes the regen spell fairly useless, since it can only be cast on the mage and his (no existent) unit.
EDIT: never mind that part. brain fart in my behalf :roll:

If i had an army that is much more shooting heavy than my opponents i could hang back and let my opponent come to me. if my seaguard cant shoot, neither can your RXB. he could just stay in place and wait for you to come to him. he can use the first turn to cast defensive spells to prevent your following shooting phase to do anything to him. if you start even further away than 24 inches it only means you will have to run a gauntlet of 30,5 inches rather than 24 inches. he will not get to shoot less with the seaguard, and he will get to shoot more with the bolt throwers. also, this makes your harpies and dark riders have an even rougher time. normally you can threaten to cahrge with them on your first or second turn, and by then you will have moved your infantry up to seem threatening. he will now be forced to chose between killing your light units to save his artillery or killing your army to weaken it. if your army is 6,5 inches further behind it will take them a whole turn extra to come to him. he can the dispense the harpies and such first AND weaken your units later, instead of having to chose.

Your ploy could work, but only against a bad general who would move forward turn 1 to compensate for that you are further away. in reality he could even move backwards turn 1 and play the waiting game. assuming he has the shootiest army you will have to come to him if you plan on winning. ofc you could both hide along your respective table edges for 6 turns and the call it a draw, but i guess none of you would be playing this game if you didnt play to win

Post by **Dalamar** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:50 pm

Ethereal magic item? High Elves don't have one. They have an item that makes the wearer immune to mundane attacks. The effect is the same as ethereal, except it's not proper ethereal so they can easily join units.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:16 pm

you are totally right dalamar. my bad.

the rest of the stuff should still hold water though

Flash29 · Post by **Flash29** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:20 pm

if this has been mentioned, disregard it , but i haven't seen it.

so your plan seems valid indeed for one simple reason , not a -1 to hit, but NO volley fire, if you move you can not volley fire, which means, if he waits, he will get 2 turns of full shooting and a stand and shoot. if he moves he will get 2 turns of shooting 1 of which is dramaticly decreased. if he shuffles backwards, their won't be a arrow hell.