Completely random idea with Corsairs

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:16 pm

Handbows don't have AP... that's not a problem. We're blessed with AP crossbows but no other army has AP ranged weapons on their fast units... ok, Pistoliers do, but I always liked pistoliers.

They're not meant to take one heavily armored troops. They're supposed to take on other diverters and flankers which usually don't have save better than 5+

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:01 am

I wrote up list with them to test, but Im on graveyard shift permanently, so only got to try it as a home skirmish- had to get SCARY close!

Chimera · Post by **Chimera** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:56 pm

I also like this idea, I've got the units built and I'm going to try it out as soon as I can.

Sometime in 2013, then... :/

If anyone HAS actually managed to give this ago... speak, please!

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:56 am

So today I finally got to try these guys out.

The scenario was meeting engagement and one unit ended up sleeping in reserve, they didn't achieve a whole lot as they got ambushed by dwarf slayers coming from reserve and then getting pushed by the anvil. Those corsairs were out of the game.

The second unit fared better, killing at least a dozen dwarf rangers (the most out of all units that shot at them... they did more damage than 20 crossbowmen. Apparently hitting on 4+ and hitting on 5+ can be a huge difference.) And then proceeded to go after a dwarf grudge thrower where they failed miserably... but such are dwarven machines.

Conclusion.
If they were dark riders - unit 1 would be fast enough to recover, but since they had to run away through a wall and a building, I wouldn't expect many dark riders to actually survive the flee. Unit two wouldn't even kill a fraction of what corsairs did to the rangers, and would likely die on the forest in which the grudge thrower was hiding.

If they were shades - Unit 1 would fare about the same, their speed not allowing them to return to useful batter. Unit 2 wouldn't kill as many dwarves, but more than dark riders, And they would be slightly more likely to (1-2 more attacks at full strength) destroy the catapult.

This combination requires more testing, against different armies (my opponent had only one war machine and 3 hordes of dwarves...) with different builds. But so far I'm leaning towards these guys being my choice of go-to harassers.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:29 pm

The dark riders or the shades would have (in my experience) made short work of the war machine if the had been able to make it into combat. Not sure if they would have been able in your game.

Also, with the extra range, surely the shades would have been able to exert some influence on the game with their longer range weapons and march+fire if they had fled like the first corsair unit.

Nonetheless, more battles needed, methinks.

12 rangers was pretty impressive shooting though for 10 guys though. Were they down to t1 or something? Or were you shooting for the whole game?

Post by **Dalamar** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:57 am

They were down to T2 for one phase of shooting when Corsairs killed about 8 of them with a well placed salvo. Hitting on 4+ really matters.

Dark Riders would probably do better against the machine on the charge due to spears. But they would risk dying on the trees as the catapult was in the middle of a forest.

Shades wouldn't do any better. They'd have 1 more attack (but only if armed with two hand weapons) at their lousy S3. That's what happened to Corsairs. About 8 hits and they managed to kill 0 dwarves. Curse T4...

Shades' long range wouldn't help much as the corsairs were cut off by a horde of slayers (which the Shades would also get cut off by), which became the only target in that half of the table (it was strangely small dwarf army with 3 hordes), and promptly got into combat with 10 CoKs who whittled them down to nothing... taking the rest of the game.

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:24 am

Sounds very interesting.. Do you think the mediocre movement value of the Dwarves was the reason why the corsairs could do their trick? I think its a great idea, but aren't you afraid that people will just line up to face you at 11" and charge you the next round? Are the corsairs manouvrable enough/do they deal enough damage to handle this?

Eglard · Post by **Eglard** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:23 am

Actually the shades would be hitting the WM crew on 3+ since they have WS 5 if I remember correctly. That and the extra attack would make quite a difference. And if you would go for great weapons they would also kill some of the crew.

I think I would find it difficult to get into a good position with the corsairs. Most opponents bring some form of cavalry to get rid of such units. Then again the corsairs would be able to kill of any fast cavalry with ease...

Post by **Dalamar** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:41 pm

Dwarves' charge range is mere 1" shorter than most other races. What corsairs can do when someone lines up 11" away from them is march 10" out of the front arc to the side, or shuffle back 2.5" and give them middle fingers. Or walk 5" to a side and shoot, while harpies land on the other side to redirect the unit.

If it's light cavalry trying to deal with 10 corsairs, it better be a big unit. 22 bolts from Stand and Shoot and then they fight at I5. Most small fast cavalry units are dead.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:57 pm

Dalamar wrote:
Shades wouldn't do any better. They'd have 1 more attack (but only if armed with two hand weapons) at their lousy S3. That's what happened to Corsairs. About 8 hits and they managed to kill 0 dwarves. Curse T4...

6 ws4 attacks is massively worse than 12 ws 5 attacks (always give shades the xhw in 8th) in my experience. Even harpies seem to smash dwarven artillery crews through weight of attacks now, and that 6 man asaault party rule really helps out anything with 2 or more attacks.

As for being unable to get past the slayer horde, fair enough. 8th edition has made it quite hard to dance around units like we used to be able to. If anything could, it would be fast cav or skirmishers, and if they couldn't, well then nothing short of a flyer could.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:05 am

Hitting isn't an issue, it's wounding that is.

As for the Slayer horde, they came out of the table edge close to the Corsair unit, and got pushed to charge with an Anvil. My only possible response was to flee... through a friendly unit, and a building. Which put the Corsairs all the way on the other side of the table.

If the slayers weren't coming out from the reserve it's easy to hang to one side of the long unit and then race 10" to their side as they come closer (or flee if they try to charge, just make sure you have something ready to countercharge)

Wobbey · Post by **Wobbey** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:46 am

Hello, wandered here through a link from Warseer, and wanted to throw in my (limited) experience and 2 cents with regards to the Corsairs unit.

Now mind you, I'm a long time 40k player (IG) and this was my first Fantasy game. My forces consisted of 2 5x2 units of Corsairs one using handbows, the other with ahw and led by Lokhir Felheart. 7x2 unit of spearmen with lvl 4 sorceress (darkness), and a 10x2 unit of RXB. I was aided by a small contingent of VC (Vamp, unit of skellies, small unit of Graveguard didnt do anything all game). My opponent was skaven using a unit of StormVermin with attached ratling gun, clanrats, lvl 4 greyseer, plague monks, plague mortar (IIRC?), and 3 rat ogres with handler.

I was torn between ahw and the handbows for the corsairs so I ran both to try them out. The handbows took the right flank through forest cover, the ahw took the left flank of open ground. The spearmen advanced behind the RXB to swap positions should the RXB get charged. While the RXB took to thinning the skaven ranks, the corsairs advanced up the flanks, the ahw just marched along the left while the corsairs marched into position to start making pot shots on the skaven whenever possible. Eventually the ahw corsairs got into position to charge the stormvermin with lokhir at the lead. Thats when I learned about Stand and Shoot as the ratling gun took out every corsair except Felheart (opponent was lucky to roll every number except 1 on the d6 or the double). Lokhir fell to the stormvermin. The handbow corsairs faired much better, shrugging off the occasional magic missile and generally being ignored in favor of the RXB cutting almost a rank off a skaven unit per turn. The shining moment for the handbow corsairs occured when they cut down the charging rat ogres and their handler with a Stand and Shoot into following melee, and the following turn they felled quite a few clanrats in a Stand and Shoot and pressed into melee to inflict a win through CR. The RXB ultimately panic'd and ran from a flaming magic attack and the spearmen (with sorceress) were turned into clanrats by an IF Curse of the Horned Rat or someother after which I conceded the game.

All in all, I was impressed by the corsairs with handbows, they really outshined my other choices for being a ten man unit being both survivable and able to throw some mean punches that put the hurting on my foe.

Daemon of khaine · Post by **Daemon of khaine** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:09 am

I had the same idea the other day (it came to me in a vison of human sacrifice, naturally

).

I have 20 corsairs (half metal, half handbows, full command), and I've tried them a few times. With Frenzy and ahw they do allright, but I figure Witch Elves do the same job better. With handbows and AP banner I've had some succes in kicking Dragon Princes' but, but I find them expensive for their hitting power and too fragile to face a heavy enemy unit. So I figured I'd try a tactic I came up with for my WotR Wood Elves (yes, I'm that guy), throwing expensive but mobile and surprisingly though minimised units at the enemy to hold them up, giving me time to shoot and counter-attack.

So I figure I could use small units as follows:

- A unit of 13 with AHW. Their job is to counter-attack unit flanks, putting in a lot of attacks and hopefully negating the enemy ranks. If the enemy breaks, their Slavers rule becomes a big bonus. Works best when combining with other counter-attacking units for extra punch; a Hydra or Chariot are cheap, though, easy to get into combat with their small frontage and they hit really hard.

- A unit of 10 with handbows, possibly Musician, Reaver is optional. These guys would

> go up a flank, targetting light enemy troops there. Between their shooting and above average close combat abilities, they'll come out on top against most equal pointed light units. Unlike Dark Riders, they can actually take a few hits on the way and they'll do more shooting hits at close range. They can also move into difficult terrain, making it harder to shoot at them or charge them with cavalry, while they can go after those Skirmishers hiding in there that Dark Riders can't get at.

> mess up the enemy battle plan. I usually use throw away units like 5 Harpies, Shades or Dark Riders for the job, but a unit of Corsairs would not get wiped out by a good round of (magic) shooting. Their job is to run up with my heavy units, getting in the enemy's way. Here their "free" shooting comes in very handy as they can put pressure on the enemy ("charge me or get another 20 shots thrown at your expensive unit") and can take out enemy units with the same task (like for example Skinks). It also allows them to do kills without getting tangled up close combat where they have little hope of winning. If an enemy does go after them, they can stand and shoot and die so my other units can get the (flank) charge, or they can try to run for it, even if they do get caught the enemy won't have the chance to turn its front to my other units.

While the differences and thus value compared to Dark Riders and Harpies are obvious, why should we take MSU Corsairs over Crossbowmen or Shades, which can fulfil the same job?

As for the crossbowmen, I figure they are better used without moving, using their range to the max. Moving also greatly reduces their hitting power, which is a vital ability for both flanking units and charge blockers.

The Shades are a bigger competition, as they can make a full move and still shoot at BS5, while they do combine ranged with ahws, plus ofcourse they are Scouts. Their weakness compared to Corsairs are cost (70% more with AHW) and survivability (no defence against magic hits, and any hits they take will quickly reduce their effectiveness, especially in combat). While they make for excellent flankers, their vulnerability and low numbers will make them too fragile (if very mobile) in the role of charge blockers.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:01 pm

Keep in mind the AP Banner only works for Close Combat attacks and won't affect handbows.

or they can try to run for it, even if they do get caught the enemy won't have the chance to turn its front to my other units.

If they run as a charge reaction and are ran down, the enemy unit that catches them gets a free reform after their pursuit move. They'll be out of place, but unlikely to show you their flank.

Daemon of khaine · Post by **Daemon of khaine** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:54 pm

good tips, thanks

another use I thought of for a small unit of Corsairs (with AHW) is hero assassination: give them KB from the Cauldron when they're about to charge/get charged, and throw 6-9 hatred kb attacks at an enemy hero or mage. their high I, numbers and save means they'll get there and get to strike, even if they lose combat afterwards

I wanted to try this with my Shades or Harpies as they're more mobile, but they're much easier to kill before they get into combat and they'll get wiped out by high I heroes before they get to strike

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:36 am

Not only they're easier to kill, but Harpies can't receive blessings from the Cauldron.

Also at about 110 points for the corsairs with champion, you're approaching the not so cheap for a suicidal unit so I wouldn't really try for character assassination unless you can somehow maximise the odds. 6 attacks with KB aren't really that reliable, but if you're looking at hacking something like Chaos combat lord with a lucky roll, those 110 points might be worth throwing away.

Daemon of khaine · Post by **Daemon of khaine** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:13 pm

can you give a reference on the "Harpies can't use Cauldron" thing? I didn't find anything in the army book or the FAQ

good point about the cost, but I figure the combination of a decent save, hitting power, speed, leadership and numbers makes it worth the investment as a MSU unit. also if you park them at an off angle right in front of a big unit, you can slow it for at least a turn, while still executing the KB tactic

I also realised that any capable opponent will quickly counter the Cauldron effect by giving their heroes anti-KB items; Chaos, Vampire Counts, Bretonnia and Dwarves have access to them, for starters

still, against any character without KB defence they have pretty good odds: 6 attacks will give 4.5 hits and thus a 75% chance of rolling a 6 to wound. 9 attacks will give 6.75 hits and a 112.5% chance of rolling a KB

the KB tactic will also work nicely against something like a Chaos Knight unit that relies heavily on armour. while you'll usually lose the Corsairs, it does mean you can throw the unit at the enemy and still make him think twice about charging them

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 pm

@ Daemon of Khaine: Harpy entry, DE army book p.55 (not FAQ).

A better (cost/effective) suicide squad is 6 WE.
3 wide if the target character is not on the edge of the unit.
6 wide if he is.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:54 am

I'm actually looking at replacing one of my two dedicated combat units with 3 small Witch Elf suicide squads.

Job: Same as any other redirector such as harpies.
Result: Against lightly armored infantry, or units with wizards in them, they will make they pay dearly for charging... or 7 Witch Elves with KB blessing placing themselves in a way of a unit of knights... Would you risk that charge? 21 KB attacks against your knights and even when you win (cause the knights will eventually win, no doubt about it) you're still out of position.

Daemon of khaine · Post by **Daemon of khaine** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:30 am

thanks Calisson

Witch Elves would be better

- strike at the same time as Chaos Exalted Hero or a Vampire, only against High Elves will they have trouble
- get the extra attack and Poison
- Immume to Psychology, so no problem if they lose a few to shooting or if you fight a fear causing enemy
- if within 12" of the Cauldron they're Stubborn at Ld 8 with a re-roll. units that don't rely on numbers of attacks (like Dwarves) won't be able to wipe them out and thus be stuck for at least two turns

weaknesses

- no defence against shooting, making them an excellent target for light shooting (which most armies have in some way or another) and magic missiles
- Poison reduces the number of KB hits they get (although a Corsairs still only gets two, so that's a moot point I guess)
- Frenzy makes them harder to control, as they could charge out of Cauldron Stubborn range, or they could be forced to charge an enemy when you don't want them too

Executioners could work for this too btw, they'll be Stubborn near the Cauldron, and they'll do more damage against heavily armoured units and Heroes. plus they already have KB

Post by **Dalamar** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:07 pm

After a game against VC I'm going to have these guys in my lists all the time now.

Two units of 10 Corsairs a total of barely over 200 points completely locked down a unit of 30 skeletons with a necromancer by dancing around them, fleeing when needed and coming back later to pepper them with crazy accurate shots.

As for the 3 suicide witch elf squads... they didn't have much to redirect so they sort of slammed face first into a horde of ghouls slowing them down (they took down more than they lost too!) while third unit took down a corpse cart. They will require more testing, but I have a feeling that a hydra would possibly do better (I'd expect hydra to munch through ha horde of ghouls eventually)

Princeelric · Post by **Princeelric** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:39 pm

Apologies for necrobump-ing this thread, but I'm finding this discussion really interesting...

Dalamar - If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd love to see your current armylist, either here or in the Druchii Army List forum. (And, I'm sure I'm not the only one!

)

Thanks in advance!

Nostromo · Post by **Nostromo** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:00 am

Also keen to see your list Dalamar - I'm working on an MSU style list at the moment, and these units seem insanely flexible for their points cost. Perhaps I should post it up for comment.

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:12 am

I don't have a "current" army list

it frequently changes from game to game.

I can post a list I used last against the VC, and a list I'm planning to try next time I get to play.