What banner for CoK?

[L1qw1d]

what about woodstriding?

[Lorddrittz]

That could be cool for a surprise attack through a forest.

[Killerk]

IMHO it's better to use a different banner, and if needed charge through a wood any way's. But it's good to have the ward on them to limit casulties.

[Omnichron]

After trying the cold one knights with ASF banner in my last tournament, I've changed my thoughts about the matter and say: Go for Hag Graef!

[Lorddrittz]

+1 Omnichron, how did you go in the Tourney?

Good point KillerK re the Ward Save if going through a forest.

Hag Graef for me and my Knights.

[Omnichron]

Well, got a 12th place out of 74 (originally 80, but some didn't meet when the tournament came around). I lost two battles I shouldn't lose (if I hadn't done some stupid mistakes... not measuring things properly and they managed their less than 10% chance rolls afterwards). Anyways, I was happy with the three wins and will do better next time.

The CoK unit did quite well, especially on the last battle where they killed a big unit of horrors and his tzeentch herald, as well as the Bloodthirster (Got charged by it and managed to survive thanks to challenge and won the round after with mindrazor and +1 attack). Thanks to ASF my knights survived some hefty battles, even though it was my witch elves that once again was the best unit in the tournament for me.

[Daeron]

I believe an important factor would be the magic lores you take. The banner of Hag Graef could prove more important when not using Shadow (which helps lower I of enemies). The banner of murder would loose value when using Lore of Metal.

Or do either of you see this differently?

[Killerk]

Well I found that the extra movement means there is few situations that the asf is needed. And it also frees up point's.

But if not using shadow asf is not very important since the lack of strength takes it toll.

[Daeron]

The only way to compensate for lack of strength is to increase the number of hits, which is where the ASF banner would be a big help I suppose. Though, with Lord of Metal's ability to add +1 to hit, I can imagine that the ASF banner also looses some of its potency.

The reason I'm weighing options so much is simply because I may be forced to trade my Black Guards for COKs in an upcoming tournament. I've never taken such a deathstar unit before, so I'm curious on how to play it. I'm tempted to death-star it up, but could as well do the opposite, run them cheap and deny points.

[Killerk]

11 cok with music and banner, + bsb with hydra, and a CoB + another hard hitting unit like 30 exes with AP banner is really good, because you don't need shadow as it is heavy comped in ETC rule pack.

[Lorddrittz]

Congrats on your 12th place Omnichron.


I would prefer to put Banner of Murder on the BG (rather than the CoK) for the -2 AS every round. The BG already have re-rolls every round of combat so ASF on them is redundant.


Okies back to the CoK with the ASF Banner.

Worst case scenario the CoK with ASF Banner caught flat footed or in a protracted combat giving them 2x Str 4 attacks one at I6 and the Cold One at I2.

The riders will get re-rolls to hit every round of combat vs. most opponents. The steeds will get re-rolls vs. VC's, TK's, Ogres, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Goblins and the other I2 troops & monsters.

Looking at synergies with either a Lvl 4 on Shadow or Metal and how this might assist the CoK in combat.


Shadow

Miasma Lowering the Targets WS or Initiative by D3 (or both boosted version). This spell is just brilliant for a signature spell. So lowering the Initiative of your average I3 trooper means that the Cold Ones are guaranteed their re-roll to hit due to the ASF Banner.

Steed Shadows not applicable

Enfeebling Foe reducing enemy strength by D3 making the CoK much harder to kill due to there being less negative modifier on their Armour saves.

Withering Targets toughness reduced by D3. This is a real game changer for the 2x Str 4 ASF attacks. So if fighting Ogres not only will the CoK be like BG (re-rolls every turn), they may be wounding on 3+ at worst and more likely 2+ which is brilliant.

Pendulum not applicable
Pit of Shades not applicable

Mindrazor this will change the 2x Strength 4 attacks to a Strength 9 and a Strength 3 (for the Cold One), the effect on the steed waters down the bonus of this spell. It is still brilliant if the CoK are buffed with an extra attack from the cauldron as this would give 2x Strength 9 and a strength 3 on the front rank.


Metal

Searing Doom not applicable

Plague of Rust -1 to opponents Armour save is pretty good improving the CoK damage from their strength 4 attacks

Enchanted blades This spell is nice. +1 to hit when the CoK are already getting re-rolls to hit due to ASF. But also the CoK Strength 4 hits are now Armour Piercing & Magical (for ethereals).

Glittering Robe not sure if this stacks with the CoK 's 2+ AS making it 1+? someone correct me

Golden Hounds not applicable

Transmutation of Lead -1 to opponents WS and Armour Save. Once again a good spell which stacks with other AS reductions on the opponent and helps the Strength 4 hits do more damage.

Final transmutation not applicable


So both these Lores seem really good at supporting the CoK. They each have 4 Buff/debuff spells to assist the CoK in combat.

In my next Tourney I am tempted to use a Lvl 4 on Metal with a Lvl 2 on Shadow, and try out a CoK fun bus.


On a side note this is my 200th post and I just became a Cold One Knight lol

[Daeron]

Glittering Robe not sure if this stacks with the CoK 's 2+ AS making it 1+? someone correct me

It grants scaly skin, which they already have. I don't think it stacks... But perhaps it could give them +1 because you may be able to choose between which scaly skin save: the +1 from the COs, or the +2 from the spell. Not sure.

[xFallenx]

Why I like the ASF Banner on the COK?

2. The Cold One Steeds get a re-roll to hit vs. Ogres Dwarves, TK's, VC's, and other Initiative 2 troops.
4. The riders get Re-rolls to hit every round of combat similar to the Black Guard.

Would someone mind clarifying how these two points happen? I've never ran a unit of CO's before, so I'm not aware of how the HG grants re-rolls...

[Trax]

Due to the First strike granted by the HG banner you're allowed to reroll any missed to-hit rolls if your initiative is equal or higher than your opponent's. Having I6, the knights will reliably reroll any failed to-hits and the Cold Ones might get some rerolls vs. I2 or lower foes (or higher if debuffed via Miasma).

[Saintofm]

Has anyone thought about the rangers banner (about 10 pointshighter price than Hag Greif, gives strider) as I end up always stuck with a lot of ruins nad forests, and after this last fight I want ot go: Screw it I'm charging.

[xFallenx]

Due to the First strike granted by the HG banner you're allowed to reroll any missed to-hit rolls if your initiative is equal or higher than your opponent's. Having I6, the knights will reliably reroll any failed to-hits and the Cold Ones might get some rerolls vs. I2 or lower foes (or higher if debuffed via Miasma).

PG 66 of the BRB. Thanks for the clarification, very good to know.

[Lorddrittz]

Ok so you have chosen your Banner for your CoK whatever you decide on.

Now usually this will be on a unit of 8-12 CoK with FC, if the unit is smaller than this then is the Magic Banner worth it? At this point the points invested make this unit a target for Metal Magic. So for example the upgraded 2D6 signature spell Searing Doom will kill 6 knights with no trouble at all.

One strategy is keep the unit cheap and away from the enemy Metal Mage when you deploy or maybe the opponent hasn't got Metal Magic.

How do you get defense on the unit besides the 2+ AS?

The Cauldron can give the unit a 5+ WS, but this may be needed on other units, also it would only save 2 of the 6 knights mentioned in the above (Searing Doom) situation and needs to be within 24"s to buff a unit.

So this begs the question do you further invest in this unit by placing a BSB and a Dreadlord General in it as well?

The BSB in the unit is important if running 10+ Knights for the re-rolling stupidity checks and +1 to combat resolution. He might as well carry the Hydra Banner doubling the units attacks if they charge, but making the points sunk into this unit really high. A second option here might be to give the BSB the Charmed Shield, and a Ward Save to stop Cannons sniping him or the Cloak of Hag Graef Dawnstone Combo.

So 10 Knights FC ASF and 4 attacks each 2 from rider, 2 from mount (+1 from champion), BSB gets 4 attacks +2 from mount, however the unit only has its armour as defense and can be easily killed by Magic.

The Iron Curse Icon can go on the unit champion giving the unit a 6+ ward save vs. war machines (better than nothing) and cheap if it saves 1 knight per game it has paid its points back.

If facing a War machine heavy army then deploying in a wide line will also reduce the number of knights under the template weapons.

So the final link in this units defense is the Dreadlord. By kitting him out with 5 Null Talismans he and his unit get a 2+ Ward Save vs. Magic such as the Searing Doom mentioned earlier (so instead of losing 6 knights to Searing Doom you will likely only lose 1). This leaves 25pts to use on your Dreadlord as you wish.

The downside is you have now sunk over 600pts into one unit, but it is a pretty good hammer unit and can also be a points denial unit in a Tourney situation.

[L1qw1d]

that had been my query Saint Though someone noted in another forum: You need to declare WHAT kind of strider you are, so Woods, Swamp, though... never heard of a Fence Strider

[Holt]

LordDrittz made a nice summary there. Had me thinking that it was a bad idea until the line about been a good points denial unit which may be something I would consider giving a go.

Going along with what LordDrittz has said about the icon on the champion, what other items would you consider putting on him? Would it be better to aim for a bit of protection or try find an item that works together with the one of the banners that you gave them?

Some of the items that stand out for me are the Ironcurse Iron already mentioned, Potion of Strength, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Whip of Agony or Ring of Hotek. The first 2 are really the only 2 that I would consider though.

[Killerk]

I drop the cham, or give him MR. Untill now 11+ bsb was fine for me. I use the saved points to get i some magic protection and a hord of exes to give my opponent something to warry about. A drogon could also work. If you only have a large unit of cok then your oponent just has to keep that one unit at bay. If you have 2-3 strong units barring down on them plus lots of chaff, people start makin mistakes once pressured. With cob and the hydra bsb you only need about 3-4 cok to inflicyt heavy casulties, the rest of the unit should be there to soke up the dammage. if your only relying on asf, well you need the unit intact to arrive to deal the same amount of dammage. IMHO that is a suboptimal choice. Its better to invest in a unit or two of 5 with music. The only problem wih multipe units is failing stupidity as your bab is not always around.

[Holt]

Its better to invest in a unit or two of 5 with music. The only problem wih multipe units is failing stupidity as your bab is not always around.

That is an interesting way to look at it, makes a lot of sense too. A unit of 9 with a BSB and a few extras come in at around 530 points, that's over 3 units of 5 with just musicians. Less of a threat than the one larger unit but there are 3 of them which can be just as deadly. You guys aren't making it easy for me to put a list together haha too many options that seem like the best one.

[Daeron]

Aye, same here Devil's Reject. I'm to make a 2.2K list with COK's and it isn't easy

[Omnichron]

The problem with small units are:

1. You don't have a champion to take the attacks from combat characters, meaning that the unit will die against most of them.
2. If you had a champ, having only 5 means that you won't get steadfast when you lose the champ against such combat chars.
3. If you lose 2-3 on the way into close combat, the unit is much easier to handle... if you had a unit of 10, they are still a strong unit.

The thing is that the 10 CoKs makes up for a tough unit to beat that can actually stay alive for a bit. If you get charged (By things with better movement), you can still get a combat in your combat phase where you can use magic and CoB to buff and debuff.

Of course, I'm not saying that the 5 CoK sucks, it's just that it can't do a lot of things that the 10 CoK unit can do... it's easier to use as a sacrifical torpedo though.

[Lorddrittz]

I forgot to mention 2 x Harpies and 2 x DR's will help you ensure the Knight Bus gets the charge off which it really needs.

I was thinking 20 BG with Muso and 30 Corsairs Frenzy Banner as the main battle line, with some small witch elf units as well.

Cauldron and Lvl 4 on Metal with lvl 2 on Shadow.

Any spare remaining points on RxBs and Shades for fire support.

[Killerk]

I had a similar list a few months ago, but it's better on paper then on the table. I kept at the idea, and what I suggest.

A l4 metal is about as effective as l1 or l2. played with l4 metal last year. a lv 2 is much better choice. I found that the l4 in some match ups is just a waist of points, as the spells she has, do nothing to help the army. Considering the points you spend on her.

18-21 corsairs do about as much damage as 30. but are 1/3 of the price.

with out a l4 shadow or soulbilght (death magic) Bg are as good as warriors vs all the MC and MI and knight's that are so common now, especially with the new Woch out. their role is taken up by the corsairs. The unit can keep up with the meta game. The last few book's made sure that the model count is down, but the average T and Armour has increased greatly, and the BG IMHO lost their effectiveness. While CoK and exes started to look more and more attractive.

l2 shadow doesn't have the power of the l4, best to change the lore.

All in all I would suggest l4 shadow and l2 metal, possibly with the toum of furion.