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Dark Elves lords with T4 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:29 am
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Just curious how the Druchii community feels about the idea that in 8th our combat lords get a boost to T4. It seemed that a vast majority of warseer seemed to foam at the mouth at the idea an elf could ever achieve T4.

In my eyes the fact that we don't have any decent toughness on our heroes only pigeon holes us more into taking the pendent that most people complain about.

Would giving elves in general T4 really be that game breaking?


Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:53 pm
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Prophet of Tzeentch
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Maybe not if it was just combat characters but elven fragility is supposed to be a weakness of ours, frankly it is not something I would change. Half the point of elves is that they should be tricky to use but devestating when gotten right. Frankly the current army is a little too forgiving for my likeing.

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Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:00 pm
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Dark Rider
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Go back to 5th edition and all elf heroes had T4, I remember it being discussed in an issue of White Dwarf when they released 6th Edition.

The gist of the argument was that it marked elf characters as distinct from a human/dwarf/orc heroes in a way that had a meaningful effect in game.

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Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:27 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Honestly I don't see a whole lot of difference between T3 and T4 right now. Either you don't get wounded a lot and your save will protect you... or you get hit so hard that no matter T or Save value, you're screwed.

T5 starts to mean something when S3 units have trouble hurting you, and S6 isn't everything anymore. But difference between T3 and T4 is minimal.

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Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:09 pm
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Generalissimo
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You aren't remotely pigeon holed into taking the pendant on a combat character, for several reasons.

1 - there are plenty of non-pendant options out there that give your combat characters lots of resilience through their saves - e.g. dreadlord with dawnstone, full mundane armour and armour of eternal servitude - thats a 2+ re-rollable armour save (1+ vs shooting and magic etc), followed by a 4+ regen save.

2 - there are at least two other armies who have T3 as standard for their characters: wood elves and high elves. None of them have the pendant.

3 - As Dalamar correctly points out, the difference between T3 and T4 on a combat character is very minor. Usually you'll only take damage from really hard hitting attacks (e.g. a S4 model with a great weapon or an S5 model with a halberd) or won't take any damage at all.

4 - Our ridiculously high initiative and options for ASF significantly reduce the chances of our characters getting chopped up in CC - you can often challenge to reduce the number of attacks you'll face and with your high initiative you can often kill the opposing model if he accepts.

5 - If you really need T4 characters then you can either take Malekith (T4) or Malus (T5 when you release the Daemon). You can also take the Black Dragon's Egg or Potion of Toughness for a short term boost, or Armour of Living Death for a permanent +1 T and 1 W (although I wouldn't recommend it).

So no, in conclusion I don't think we need T4 characters and I certainly don't think the low availability of these means you are pigeon holed into taking a ridiculously overpowered item on a combat character.

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Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:40 pm
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I'm all for t4 for elven fighter heroes. Interestingly, in 5th, even sorceror lords had t4. Since elven characters no longer can rely on fighting themselves out of combat, I would say t4 is the bare minimum they would need to make them viable vs rank and file.

Even then, I can't see it encouraging many players to take masters on foot or on steeds to bolster units. GW are gonna have to work quite hard to make elven fighters in any of the 3 elven books attractive choices compared to casters or our non combat BSB.

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Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:17 pm
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Any army can make a character that will hold up a whole ranked unit for several rounds using a 1+ armour save, the Dawnstone, and the Crown of Command. The higher the toughness of your heroes the longer they will last

The selection of defensive items available in our book allows our heroes to do the same.

Against, for example, a unit of Temple Guard, assuming they are in horde formation but with no other factors, a Black Orc lord with above equipment will probably last for 10 rounds give or take.

A Dreadlord with same equipment can expect to last 5 or 6 rounds. 6 or 7 rounds if T4 and, as above, 10 rounds or so if T5.

With the Pendent of Khaleth rather than the Dawstone that changes to just over 10 rounds. 13 rounds if T4. 18 rounds if T5.

Anyway, if you want to include a character in your list that can stand in front of the elite enemy infantry unit for almost an entire game you can do it if you have T5 and the common magic items, or you can do it if you have T3 and the Pendent.

Returning to the specific subject of this thread, having a T4 hero would dramatically improve the survivability of our characters against anything less that S6. I still like the idea of all elves having a maximum T3 though, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else.

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Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:39 pm
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I think it's a safe assumption that the pendant won't be around in the same form in our next book, and since armour of silvered steel is 45pts and worse than our 1+ save armour, that may well go too. If those assumptions are correct, we may need something to help last in combat.

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Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:42 am
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Yeah, I really worry about what is going to happen to my armies once their new books come out, especially magic item selection.

The general pattern seems to be 'take out everything that actually gets used; choose 8 mediocre items and double their price.' And that will really hurt not just the DE, but the Bretonnians as well.


Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:50 pm
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We might see pendant go... and Black Amulet becoming a 100 points 3+ ward save that bounces CC wounds.

I'd take it.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:49 am
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Dalamar wrote:
We might see pendant go... and Black Amulet becoming a 100 points 3+ ward save that bounces CC wounds.

I'd take it.
I was thinking of something similar myself recently. I'd probably take it too. You'd need it to be a 3+ to make it worthwhile on an infantry dreadlord.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:07 am
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Everyone would take it. An item that has a 66% chance of causing your opponent's wounds to land on him instead? Dreadlords would become combat monsters, hitting their opponents with their own attacks, and then hitting them with their opponents attacks too.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:58 am
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and taking up all magic item allowance? It's a pretty big downside.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 pm
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What other magic items could the character need? On a Dreadlord, you can already get a good armour save through mundane armour, have leadership 10 and S5 or S6 through a halberd or great weapon. The difference between a 4+ ward save (heads you win, tails you lose) and a 3+ ward save is huge!

With that magic item, you could run:

Dreadlord
3+ Black Amulet
Cold One
Heavy Armour
Seadragon Cloak
Halberd

That'd give you a character with 4 attacks at WS7, I8, S5 and hatred, who also has a 1+ save versus non CC attacks and a 2+ save versus CC attacks, all boosted by a 3+ ward save that bounces CC wounds if successful. He'd be a bit hideous imo.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:14 pm
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I think T3 is fine. If you're going to try to kill a character these days, you usually have to hit them with the biggest, baddest weapon you have...which is often another character (or magic).

Your average combat character is probably trooping around with S6+ anyway, so T4 would make little difference.

If you're being attacked by normal infantry (etc.), point and laugh since it will be easier to get kills from the infantry/cavalry around the character compared to the character himself (due to better saves, better WS, wards etc.).

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:31 pm
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Don;t we have a lord choice only armor that gives you T4, but only leaves you enough points for magic items for Pendent of Kheleth? How does that combination with Halberd/Great weapon, sea dragon cloak, pegasus/other flying monster, and maybe a shield for range attacks?

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:32 pm
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From what I can see, in the broadest terms, if you have a combat lord you want them to go out and take on enemy regiments on their own, perhaps on the back or a flying monster. Or you what them leading one of your units and providing a few bonuses to their combat that help tip the balance.

As it stands, a Dreadlord has the selection of equipment to do both of these things very well, especially since the Pendent of Khaleth makes a Dreadlord as tough as a Black Orc or Chaos Lord in relative terms.

I may be the case that in the future with a more limited selection of items Dreadlords become less capable combat characters, and we will have to use them more carefully if we want them to be effective.

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Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:28 pm
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We have ways today to make a good close combat lord without the pendant as well. Armor that gives regen together with dragonbane gem. That is a costy choice that is actually worse (most of the time) than the pendant lord we already have, so I expect the pendant to either be removed or changed (With a higher cost.

As for T4 lords/heroes, I don't think we'll see that again. And I don't think we need T4 either if we still get magical protection and armor that is good.

I do really see the need for improved defense for assassins and hags though.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:28 am
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Assassin

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where also one of the 3 army's which can have a re-rollable 1+ as and a 4 + all encompassing wardsave


Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:43 pm
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1 of 3? That can't be right? LM, HE and CW at the very least can get 1+ rerollable AS and 4+ ward.

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Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:12 pm
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Dark Reaper wrote:
1 of 3? That can't be right? LM, HE and CW at the very least can get 1+ rerollable AS and 4+ ward.


chaos warriors can't cause they have to forfeit their chaos armour for regular heavy armour. (their magic armour only works against non magical) lizard can and high elves as well. empire can't since they can't take full plate


Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:29 pm
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Khorne lord on a jugger with shield can.

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Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:13 pm
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flash29 wrote:
Dark Reaper wrote:
1 of 3? That can't be right? LM, HE and CW at the very least can get 1+ rerollable AS and 4+ ward.


chaos warriors can't cause they have to forfeit their chaos armour for regular heavy armour. (their magic armour only works against non magical) lizard can and high elves as well. empire can't since they can't take full plate


what? 4+ ward talisman (45pts), armor, shield, crown, horse with barding, tzeentch mark, crown (35pts) makes T5 1+ As with permanent 3+ ward, stubborn and on top 30pts to spend in magic items and 50 in gifts makes IMHO much worse combat machine...


Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:02 pm
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Assassin

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Dark Reaper wrote:
Khorne lord on a jugger with shield can.

indeed, i wan't aware that the jugger gave +3 to a armour save, i stand corrected.

@ diablo, that was not my point, that build isn't the same, and i'd prefer the rerollable 1+ as to the by 1 improved ward save. tougness aside of course.


Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:29 pm
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Red... wrote:
What other magic items could the character need? On a Dreadlord, you can already get a good armour save through mundane armour, have leadership 10 and S5 or S6 through a halberd or great weapon. The difference between a 4+ ward save (heads you win, tails you lose) and a 3+ ward save is huge!

With that magic item, you could run:

Dreadlord
3+ Black Amulet
Cold One
Heavy Armour
Seadragon Cloak
Halberd

That'd give you a character with 4 attacks at WS7, I8, S5 and hatred, who also has a 1+ save versus non CC attacks and a 2+ save versus CC attacks, all boosted by a 3+ ward save that bounces CC wounds if successful. He'd be a bit hideous imo.



It would be but then again the character could be shot to pieces before entering close combat.(by warmachines or spells)
perhaps one could add a minor downside such as flameable


Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:06 pm
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