In defence of the Death Hag BSB led Executioner Horde (done)

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:29 am

Dh'akor- Ive been in the same boat as you for ages, up until around now. I would always run medium sized units (24 being a common number for corsairs, WEs and Executioners) but as my gaming groups meta has began to shift towards bigger units, I need to use bigger units myself to compete. 24 models (in a 6 by 4 formation) can stand up to units of 15+ bulls, 40 tomb guard, 40 storm vermin, 70+ clanrats with bell, or 50 VC skeletons, which are all common sites in my gaming group.

And Red- I tried the horde of 30 with ASF hag againt Ogres the other night. It killed two ogre beasties (the ones with crossbow guys on top) and one had his Hunter general on it. I only lost about 3 guys, it was quiet awesome (Though I had to make sure at all costs that they didnt get the charge on me).

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:49 am

witches i still even use in 15 and 12 ...But they still go through bigger units (even semi elite like graveguards) like cutting through butter. I never play tournies, but i've been to one a month or 2 ago? and people where like, you use witches?? 12 of em to what end??

What do you think?flanking your big ass unit with 25 poisoned, hatred attacks !!!

But you right though need to shift to bigger units... the msu/mse day's are at an end!! (tbh, i miss 6th ed. With all it's flaws, IMHO the best/most fun edition i played)

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Yeah, IF you're going to put that glass cannon in the Executioners, run a Horde unit and put her on the corner. That way you minimze attacks on her, extending her lifespan.

Yes, many players do forget to allocate attacks to her, especially newer ones. Experienced players will not.

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Demetrius wrote:24 models (in a 6 by 4 formation) can stand up to units of 15+ bulls, 40 tomb guard, 40 storm vermin, 70+ clanrats with bell, or 50 VC skeletons, which are all common sites in my gaming group.

Why not 7x3? Did you compare the respective merits?

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:52 pm

Callison- I have tried units in 7 by 3, but its still the same case- not enough bodies to soak up a little bit of shooting/magic damage as well as beat these massive units in combat. Id prefer not to have to use hordes of elite infantry, because they almost feel like deathstars. But I am leaning towards them at the moment if I want to stand up against the other hordes in my area.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:01 am

Red... wrote:J) One final note...

Don't bother even considering taking this unit against High Elves. Replace the Death Hag BSB with 12 or 13 Executioners instead, because the Asur's eternal ASF means that you'll still be striking last, even with her negation of ASL for the unit.

Some recent personal experience about this matter:

If you use this unit and have that BSB and meet high elves, put her in another unit and gain ASF on them. This means you are on equal or better grounds than the high elves with that unit.

I field the witch elves as well in my army, giving me the ability to strike before the high elves when I have the BSB with them. The result is quite staggering for most high elves as the witch elves suddenly manage to do their carnage before the HE units can. The executioners are still good enough and big enough to take out Dragonprinces, although a waste against most of the other non-knightly matchups.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:24 am

Yes, that makes a lot of sense Omnichron - very good thinking. Although they will still strike simultaneously rather than before (as ASF is not resolved by initiative).

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:29 pm

Red... wrote:Although they will still strike simultaneously rather than before (as ASF is not resolved by initiative).

Ah, then it was played out wrong... anyways, you still get to deal the full amount of attacks from that one unit you have the BSB at least

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:57 pm

I can second what Omnichron said.

I have been using an all comers list lately with a horde of execs and a horde of which elves. Whenever I face HE or slaneeshi daemons, I put the BSB in the witch elves as the execs would be hooped anyway.

I tied up a game against a Slaneeshi daemon list where the player was prepping for a tournament and I tied him. I also demolished my friends HE list (my army was pretty tattered near the end, but both horde units survived with a few models left, enough to deny VP)

The key to a list like this is to have plenty of fast moving stuff to help make sure you get the hordes where they need to go (I have 2*5 RXB DR, 2*5 Harpies, 6-8 Shades, Lvl4 dark on peggy, and DL on peggy (SoM, OTT, Black Amulet, full mundane). Metal is also orgasmic, I keep it on my lvl 2 with ToF....nothing like getting off the boosted version of glittering robe when every unit is within 12"....

Lanceocletian · Post by **Lanceocletian** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:31 am

Good article Red!

Overall, I like the unit of 30-40 executioners with the death hag BSB. The unit will eat just about any opponent in combat, whether mass infantry, monstrous infantry, characters, or monsters. No other unit in the DE list kills everything in the way this unit does.

My primary concern with the unit is that it becomes the primary focus of your list. Whether at 17-18%at 3,000 or 25% at 2,500 points, the real points of the unit is not actually around 450-600 points, but honestly, the real cost is closer to a thousand. The reason is that most people have their cauldron and BSB act together. To make the unit a really strong death dealing unit of doom and to have the always strikes first, 5+ ward save, and stubborn function you need the death hag BSB in the unit and the cauldron behind it. Since the unit is the biggest investment you will spend the vast majority of turns with the cauldron giving the executioners the 5+ ward save. Moreover, your magic is extremely geared to servicing this particular unit with both enchanted blades and glittering robe. Arguably, half your magic dice will go to protecting, augmenting, or killing threats to this unit. If you say then say the cauldron is essentially brought to give the unit a ward save and half of your mage cost is dedicated to this unit, then the unit’s actually cost is about 1,000 points.

Additionally, with such a large amount of points tied up in an aggressive combat unit, the unit has to get across the board quickly before it gets shot and with the unit’s death hag serving as BSB and cauldron nearby, the unit has to form the ‘heart’ of the army. I think you have to build a fast/assault list to accompany it, as holding back will realistically mean the unit’s death from shooting or you are losing your investment in it. In essence, I feel that the unit dictates the list and style of play, especially at 2,500 points and below.

What I really like about your approach is that it double downs on where Dark Elves excel, which is being a super glass cannon. Moreover, with so many accurate strength six attacks, it can drop monsters with T6 or higher, something which dark elves can struggle with if not choosing shadow magic. Once I get enough executioners models, I am going to play test this block.

How do you feel about this unit as an alternative to the executioner unit that can service many of the same function, but with a bit less commitment than the executioner horde? How about 20 dark elf black Guard with banner of Hag Graef and a lord with executioner’s axe, blood armor, sea dragon cloak, and dragonbane gem? This unit is about 550 points depending on how you want the command. It allows you to take the cauldron as a BSB. Some pros of this unit over the executioner block:

1) The lord is better protected than the hag after it fights a round of combat. I consider losing the BSB more often worse than the general since elves have a pretty high natural ld.

2) The lord can drop about any monster and most characters. It can arguably drop steam tanks and sphinx’s more efficiently than executioners.

3) The ASF on black guard will allow them to strike before high elves and most other ASF troops.

4) On a smaller frontage, the black guard will have the same number of attacks as the executioners.

5) Since the unit doesn’t tie-up as many point as the executioner block along with having high leadership and stubborn it can operate outside the BSB bubble which allows it to go on a far flank or other location. Similarly, by going on a flank instead of the middle of your list, you can stay outside the most common spell range of 18-24 inches which will give it some protection that doesn’t require cauldron.

I think the 40 man unit of executioners with death hag is still more effective in combat, but supposing this unit gets tied up by a long grind or distracting units, then at least the cauldron can more readily focus on other troops with its blessing and providing a re-reroll for other troops which may still allow you to win the game. Similarly, it allows your mage to more readily focus on aiding other troops to help them win their combats.

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:58 am

@ lanceocletian

Welcome to Druchii.net

against high elves, you right, i'd rather take an extra unit of BG instead of executioners.

I'm not really sure i agree on you with all your points.

Firstly against other armies i wouldnt even bother with the hag greaf banner on the black guards. They will strike first anyway.

Saying the unit costs around 1000 points nonsense, hag with COB is 200 points isn't it? not 500. And adding 300 points of sorc. to one unit....
Btw she is in there anyway,in my case most of the time that is, so are sorceresess and they do what is necessary at that moment!
So i think your 550 pts build costs about the same as the Exec.

Blackquards are great, for sure but they i just use em for differerent purposes then my executioners.
(in a lot of cases i have both)

think the 40 man unit of executioners with death hag is still more effective in combat, but supposing this unit gets tied up by a long grind or distracting units, then at least the cauldron can more readily focus on other troops with its blessing and providing a re-reroll for other troops which may still allow you to win the game. Similarly, it allows your mage to more readily focus on aiding other troops to help them win their combats.

Im not really sure what you mean by this?!
Besides you don't want to put your entire/most of your army in service of one unit anyway!

It can arguably drop steam tanks and sphinx’s more efficiently than executioners.

Can it?!

Besides I rather like to target big beasties(not the steam tank though) with small groups of witches anyway, they are build for that. i'm not sure i'd use my unit of black guards for stuff like that.

Lastly using the 5+ wardsave is nice and all when your yet not in combat, using the extra attack is what you want!!

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:27 pm

The executioner axe is the best monster killer we got when we have ASF with it.

The weakness to the ASF BG w/ Executioner lord is somewhat similar to the problem with the ASF Executioners w/ BSB Hag. If that one character gets sniped, the unit will weaken alot. However, unlike the BG's, if you loose the character with the executioners, they can still strike down heavily armored units and monsters, while the BG's will start to struggle... on the other side, the BG unit doesn't have any frenzy in it, and so it will not have the drawbacks of having to overrun after combat.

It all depends on the armycomposition imo.

Now, if we could only field 2 ASF banners and used both units at once... :twisted:

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:55 pm

dh'akor wrote:I'm not really sure i agree on you with all your points.

Firstly against other armies i wouldnt even bother with the hag greaf banner on the black guards. They will strike first anyway.

The BoHG isn't there to give the Black Guard ASF, it's there to get the Executioner's Axe Lord striking on Initiative order rather than last.

I ran this very unit once. Smashed a flanking unit of Chaos Knights accompanied by a Lord on Juggernaut with this one. :lol:

It's pretty situational though, against many armies the Executioner's Axe really doesn't have much of a target.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:41 am

Vulcan wrote:It's pretty situational though, against many armies the Executioner's Axe really doesn't have much of a target.

Yes, although the rest of the DE army can handle most of those other targets. It's why I still think the Executioners axe is actually a viable choice.

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:43 am

The BoHG isn't there to give the Black Guard ASF, it's there to get the Executioner's Axe Lord striking on Initiative order rather than last.

obviously you're absolutly right!

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:42 am

@ lanceocletian

Thanks for the kind feedback.

My primary concern with the unit is that it becomes the primary focus of your list. Whether at 17-18%at 3,000 or 25% at 2,500 points, the real points of the unit is not actually around 450-600 points, but honestly, the real cost is closer to a thousand. The reason is that most people have their cauldron and BSB act together. To make the unit a really strong death dealing unit of doom and to have the always strikes first, 5+ ward save, and stubborn function you need the death hag BSB in the unit and the cauldron behind it. Since the unit is the biggest investment you will spend the vast majority of turns with the cauldron giving the executioners the 5+ ward save. Moreover, your magic is extremely geared to servicing this particular unit with both enchanted blades and glittering robe. Arguably, half your magic dice will go to protecting, augmenting, or killing threats to this unit. If you say then say the cauldron is essentially brought to give the unit a ward save and half of your mage cost is dedicated to this unit, then the unit’s actually cost is about 1,000 points.

I think I've discussed this perspective before, but in case not, will take the time to do so again.

First off, neither your sorceress(es) or Cauldron are physically located in the unit, therefore if the unit is somehow destroyed, they are not simultaneously killed. That undermines one aspect of considering the unit as a points sync.

Second, yes, the unit has incredible synergies with other units. That's a plus, not a minus. I'm not sure why folk feel that units should need to be fully independent of one another in order to be good - it's simply not true (at least not for Dark Elves). We want our units to synergise - be it through clever hexes and augments, or coordinated combi charges. I should add that the Cauldron and SS are both benefits, not dependencies. The Exec DH core unit can and does survive perfectly well by itself if needed.

Third, this argument only ever seems to arise in relation to this particular unit combo, but that's a very selective approach. According to this logic, a unit of 30 RxBs with shields that is supported by a Supreme Sorceress with lore of shadow, sacrificial dagger and pendant of khaine in a unit of 30 warriors with FC, should be considered to cost around 650 points. (330 for the RxBs and 320 for the Supreme Sorceress). Maybe that's the right way to look at it - but people should at least be consistent.

Fourth, I would argue that actually one of the strengths of the synergy is that the benefits provided by the Cauldron and Sorceress both can and regularly do get used to support other units. My Cold One Knights, for example, will regularly get blessed by the Cauldron with +1 attack on the turn they charge (which is often before the Execs get into combat). Similarly, my metal SS has toasted a huge number of foes with metal's offensive spells (the signature spell is ace for toasting heavily armoured foes and the level 6 spell is insane for doing mass carnage against any medium or large enemy unit). I don't always end up giving Blades of Aiban to the Execs (many of their combats are so one-sided in their favour anyway that they don't actually need it) but have often given it to units/characters such as my Pegasus Master or even my warriors. I usually try to cast glittering robe to affect all units within 12", but if I do go for the single unit version then its not always my Execs who benefit - again, they only get it cast on them if they need it.

Finally, having a CoB as BSB has advantages, but also disadvantages, including: it gets easily left behind, can be destroyed quite easily if you are unlucky (yes, its T10, but with just a 4+ ward save and only 4 wounds it does go down pretty quickly against massed bow fire or initiative based spells), andt the BSB hardly ever gets to add its +1 to combat res because its a support rather than combat piece.

I disagree fundamentally that the unit defines how you play when fielded. For me, it forms one component of my army, which also includes a very hard hitting Cavalry and Chariot element, a robust anvil holder and some quick moving skirmish troops. The unit represents one tool, not the defining tool.

The BG unit you propose is an interesting one, but ultimately quite flawed. Here's why:

- You are capped out at 20 models for the blackguard, meaning you are much more vulnerable to getting shot to pieces by enemy missile fire and magic before you get across the board.
- You are just S3 latently, so Dwellers will halve your unit.
- In order to give them the same buffs as benefit the Execs, you are adding a further 320 points on for the Supreme Sorceress (see my comment above about constancy of totalling up synergies - if you are going to include the 320 points for the SS in the Exec combo, you need to include it in the BG combo too). So actually, according to your calculations, your unit comes in at closer to

20 BG with FC and Standard of HG = 330 points
Dreadlord with Exec Axe, Blood Armour, Dragon pendant, Sea Dragon Cloak = 236 points
SS with Lore of Metal, Sacrificial Dagger and Pendant of Khaine = 320 points
Total = 886 points.

- Your unit cannot deal with certain enemies. A big unit of Empire Knights, for example, will be more or less indestructible against your unit. Your BG have just S4 with no AP (as you've gone with the SHG rather than an AP banner) and so will be wounding on 3s, followed by him having a 2+ save. Even your dreadlord will be providing a mere -3 modifier to armour saves, allowing them a 4+ save.

I like the alternative thinking and do much appreciate the feedback - it's interesting to have the chance to discuss these things. But overall, I think your critique of the build has some flaws and the alternative provided seems to end up costing roughly the same (however you include the supporting/synergy models into the cost) but doesn't have the same reliability in terms of who it can fight or survivability in terms of getting across the table.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:21 pm

I think that it's clear that all armies who field a power unit like the ASF Executioner horde, ASF BG Executioners Axe lord or cold one knights deathstar with hydra banner (and so on), spend alot of points and focuses alot on the unit to do alot of the work for the army. It's quite natural, and the BG + Executioners Lord option isn't cheap either. As he is most likely the general, you loose about the same as you would whenever you loose the BSB from the executioners squad in VP too.

The executioners one is probably one of the best we have of power units. It's a big part of the army, but you still get room for other necessary parts in the list, even down to 2000 pts... maybe even 1500 (Although your other choices is quite thin at those points).

I think the concerns for this kinda units isn't really whether it works, but how it can be countered and rendered "useless" in battle. This can be done mainly in two ways against the executioner horde like this:

- Redirectors
- Sacrifical units

I think this has already been said earlier, but... The first would mean that the executioners would just overrun out of the table or into places where they can't do anything because of the frenzy on the BSB. Of course, most players who field this kinda unit will have harpies/shades/riders/crossbowmen to deal with such issues when they appear... it's why support units are needed to this power unit.

The second can be harder to get out of. A huge unit of zombies is probably the best example of this. They will take tons of damage, but the VC player might ressurect enough of them to make the execs stand in close combat with them over several rounds. They'll even be able to take some of the execs down while they're at it, and if they have a wraith in the unit, the executioners might loose enough to be handled later... maybe the BSB gets killed too as a horde Zombie unit isn't exactly hard to field pointwise. On the other hand, it frees the rest of my army to deal with his army. Witch elves with banner of murder loves to churn through the rest of the VC army (Except blood knights and etherals).

Uriain · Post by **Uriain** » Tue May 08, 2012 9:39 pm

If you dont mind me asking, what are your thoughts on taking the Executioners WITHOUT the DH-BSB and using her cost to include additional Executioners.

I really like the DH-BSB with 30 man Executioner horde, and have fielded it multiple times before against friends to great success (never though of second anvil of CoK though, good idea). The question though comes from a discussion we had about more bodies vs not having ASL on the Executioners.

Is this method (more executioners instead of BSB) a decent trade off in your eyes?

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Wed May 09, 2012 7:36 pm

At 180 points (you did give her the ward save so she has a fighting chance, right?), a ASF Death Hag BSB covers the cost of 15 Executioners. So unless the enemy unit is likely to kill 15 Executioners in one go, she doesn't justify her price.

Having said that... there are quite a few units out there that can EASILY kill 15 Executioners in one round... or even more. Pretty much any unit with multiple attacks, frenzy, or two hand weapons can do it with ease. S4+ stuff not only wounds easily, but also halves (or entirely removes) the Executioner's anemic armor save. What's worse, most of these units are EXACTLY the type of targets that the Executioners are best suited to kill.

It's worth trying out both ways. Your local metagame might well make one or the other far superior.

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Thu May 10, 2012 5:47 am

do not forget that combat can last more than one round, in which case ASF becomes much much more important (you may not lose 15 guys the first round, but losing 8 guys per round isnt unreasonable at all).

Also, if you strike before the enemy you may actually kill some of HIS fighting models before they get to fight (ogres especially hate this since they rarely have models in a unit that do not fight)

hence, the hag bring something to the unit that an extra 15 troops do not.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu May 10, 2012 12:56 pm

No, I personally would never give the death hag a ward save. It's too unreliable and mostly she shouldn't need it.

For the first combat, not having a death hag BSB wouldn't matter much if you have enough models that you can take the hits and then strike back with enough to pack a punch (e.g. you take 50, your enemy kills 20 and so you still hit back with all 30). The problem comes in subsequent fights, as each time you take the damage first the unit loses models and its endurability decreases. The joy of the Death Hag BSB setup is that you strike first so the number of models you lose should be significantly decreased (even though you start with 12-13 less) and even if you do lose a lot of models, the unit remains effective,m up until the very last model.

Ilderoth · Post by **Ilderoth** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:41 pm

Hi Red,

Nice article!

I´m in the process of building and playtesting a DE army with a horde of executioners myself. I haven´t decided yet on taking 35-40 of them without ASF BSB or 29-34 with ASF BSB. Though I am really sensitive to your argument that you may not notice the difference significantly in the first round of combat but certainly in subsequent rounds (if you include the BSB), I wonder how you would fight an Ogre Kingdom´s army including a horde of ironguts, a bruiser bsb, a level 4 with death magic and greedy fist and firebelly. I ask this because OK seem to be the new powerhouse of 8th edition and I frequently face them at tournaments.

The problem is that you won't be able kill the deathstar unit in the first round with your exes, and in the second round you won't be able to rely on your bsb any longer because she's dead (step up rule is b...tch). To add insult to injury, the battle will go downhill from that moment on... Of course, you might say that you should avoid the unit but if you don't kill the unit than you will simply loose. The level 4 death ogre will kill your level 4 or reduce its magic levels quickly to 0 by combining death magic with the greedy fist. Moreover, you can't avoid the unit 6 turns long due to its speed and ability to remove roadblocks...

So: the question is how you think an executioner horde with/without ASF BSB would work against this kind of ogre army?

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Hi Ilderoth,

Thanks for the post and interesting question.

The short answer is, neither will work very well. There are definitely units in 8th ed that a death hag led executioner horde cannotdeal with in a direct face to face match up. The unit setup is limited by two key weaknesses, neither of which are a problem against most enemy units, but against really really mean melee forces they can become critical.

Weakness 1:
Max output of 39 Executioner attacks and 5 death hag attacks. That means a maximum of 44 wounds. Even if your opponent saves none of those wounds, if his unit is big enough then he make be able to soak it up and keep the pain coming. A unit of 30 ogres, for example, will lose just 14 models, leaving them with 16 of them left to gank you. Sure. he will have suffered a lot of pain, but so will you and you may well end up losing the melee.

Weakness 2:
The Death Hag can be killed during the first round of combat. That means if you don't win in the first round, you may be striking last in the second round. With just T3 and a 5+ armour save, that really stings.

So, with this in mind, you are faced with two possible ways to deal with an Ogre melee deathstar:

1. Pump your unit up even stronger. Add Tullaris, add Hellebron, add a couple of assassins with rune of khaine and manbane, even add a couple of death hags, anything to increase the fighting power of the unit. Your goal is to make the impact of your first set of attacks smash his deathstar beyond the tipping point (i.e. wipe out enough of the models in his unit to prevent him from hitting you back strongly). The snag with this approach is that you could well fail, and if you do, you've lost even more points than before!

2. Avoid the death star and deal with it using evasion tactics. If an opponent is investing the points needed to run a deathstar unit like the one you described, then odds are the rest of their army is fairly weak. You could try to divert the death star using cheap mobile units such as harpies, pegasus riders, dark riders, etc - even sacrificing these units if needed - while unleashing the might of your army on his other units. At the end of his game, he'll still have his death star intact, but you will have won the game. (Heck, you may even be able to whittle down his deathstar unit with missile fire while it is baited around the board sufficiently that at the end of the game you can smash your Execs into combat with him and win. That's not recommended unless you are sure you can win the combat though...).

I think the general point I am trying to communicate is that, while the DH led Exec horde is very strong, it is not a unit of Tzeentch Chaos Chosen with 3+ ward save. It does hit very hard, but its damage output is ultimately limited and it cannot take as good as it gives. You need to be wary about engagng enemy melee powerhouse units - only engage them if you are fairly certain you can win (mathhammer is your friend) and avoid them if you can't.

Hope that helps a bit

Ilderoth · Post by **Ilderoth** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:44 pm

I agree that against most armies out there the best strategy is to redirect a death star and to focus on destroying the other parts of it (which an exes horde is of course very good at). But in the case of OK this is not a viable tactic because the level 4 death ogre will use his greedy fist and perhaps even his sickle and eventually snipe your bsb and he will snipe your level 4 (or at the very least drop magic levels). This gives him already about 650 victory points.

So, maybe the problem is not so much a problem of the exes horde but a more general problem for dark elves (or perhaps even for all non-OK armies). Or, to put it the other way around, maybe the problem lies with the external balance of the OK (and that stupid FAQ that says you can use the greedy fist with ranged attacks).

Anyway, I will be using the exes horde (heck, I already converted 38 of those killing machines) for it is, in my opinion, one of the best units we have at our disposal with a massive potential for damge output (and because most people tend not to use them).

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:11 pm

Ilderoth wrote:But in the case of OK this is not a viable tactic because the level 4 death ogre will use his greedy fist and perhaps even his sickle and eventually snipe your bsb and he will snipe your level 4 (or at the very least drop magic levels)

The newest errata says that the magic level dropping only works with close combat attacks. No more death sniping greedy fists on our sorcs.

As for the executioners these days, the metagame has changed a lot as all these 1+/2+ monstrous cavalry is coming around, leaving us even more voulnerable with our other choices. I think the executioners are a much more viable option now than before.