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beating shooty armies...VERY shooty armies 
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Shade
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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:21 pm
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Location: Naggarond
Hey lads....I was brainstorming on my druchii army...and wondered what would happen if I faced a very shooty army...like all missile troops. So whithout further ado, I grabbed a dwarf army book and wrote up a list at 2k

a thane BSB
Runesmith w/2 dispel scroll thingies
7 units of 10 thunderers
3 cannons
6 bolt throwers
2 organ guns

I play dreadlord w/pendant on cold one
Lv.2 scroll
Lv.1 fire
cauldron BSB
30 spears
2x 12 xbows
5 harpies
7 CoK
hydra
2x 14 witch elves

How would I beat such a list?

My own ideas...
refused flank so they can't all shoot at once
take advantage of the D6+4 terrain pieces
put the harpies in front of the CoK and give the knights 5+ ward save
and charge like clappers...he can't really kill everything...can he?


Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:27 pm
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Generalissimo
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At the heart of your problem is some structural flaws with your list.

Even without going up against a very heavy shooty army, I think you'd always want to have more fast troops than just one single unit of harpies. At 2k, your army should really have at least two units of fast troops, if not three or four. I'd add in either some dark riders, more harpies, shades and/or a pegasus master.

(On a side note, at 2k not taking a level 4 mage is risky. Fair enough, but risky. A dreadlord with the pendant is Zzzz. But those comments aren't connected with your topic.)

There are several possible ways to beat shooty armies. The first is to trust in the dice gods and just throw everything across the table as quickly as possible, in the hope of surviving long enough and in enough numbers to deal a knock out punch when you hit your opponent's lines. It's not a great strategy, but it's probably the only one you have available with your current list.

The second is to get your small, fast and harrassing troops across the board and either through his lines or around his flanks as soon as possible. At the same time, you can advance your main forces aggressively across the table. He either has to deal with your fast troops, allowing your main force to get across relatively unscathed, or he has to focus on your main army, in which case your fast troops can move in and disable the warmachines and relatively flimsy lines of shooting without too much fuss.

The final way is to try to bring your own shooting and magic heavy army and out-do your opposition. Not really recommended against Dwarves, Empire or other such foes, but can sometimes pay dividends versus woodies and high elves.

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Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:48 pm
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Executioner
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the worst isn't the cannons or thunderers it's the grudge throwers that are strenght 5 and can reroll the scatter dice if they miss that kill the most DE

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:35 am
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Dragon Lord
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That dwarf list is rather weak.

It's missing Anvil of Doom and Grudge Throwers.

Two Pegasi masters (one with Pendant, the other with CoHG/Dawn Stone) combined with standard minimum 2 units of harpies will remove the artillery threat very fast. 7 Units of thunderers will really have to split their fire because they can't move and shoot. Meaning once you get close enough/behind them, you render them useless.

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:44 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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what dalamar said. it is a weak dwarf list, but tbh your list is very weak too. you have no edge in any field really. a word of warning though. the bolt throwers are usually concidered more or less worthless, but they are one of the few things that can actually kill the CoHG/dawnstone master (since they do not allow armour saves, unlike cannons)

Harpies, flying charaters and possibly some shades (though they will most likely get shot down) should win you the day. if you are tailoring the list to just play against him i would probably bring like 5 units of harpies, and use some for screening and some for attacking. CoK will be a huge point sink because he can really reduce their AS. they will die too quickly. Witches will probably do better, since they have no armour anyway, and are thus much cheaper. wave after wave of warriors could be tough for him to handle too, since they cost so little.

in the magic phase you either go all out (lvl 4 with dagger) because with dark magic, you can cast all 5 of your spells most turns then, or you bring 0 magic and save the points (again, only if you are tailoring the list).

hydra can be left at home. he is just free VPs in this case.

RXBs are not terrible actually. in a shooting duel against handgunners on long range they will only be slightly behind. handgunners still win though.

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:55 am
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Executioner
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the harpies are quickly removed also by the organ guns, typically it's the war machines that do the long range killing for the dwarves, if he has that many points tied up in handgunners it keeps him from having more siege weapons, hydras are really free pts when playing dwarfs, all siege wpns can be flaming except for the organ guns, when I hear people say how overpowered hydras are I think that the groups they play in must not have many dwarf players. I think it levels lists out when you make your list to a point limit but don't know what army your facing first, given time to tailor your list for a known opponent can make for a very one sided match

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Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:28 am
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yes, harpies are killed by organ guns, but he can only have two of those. just make sure you have more than two units that threaten his artillery and he will be hard pressed to kill them all before one gets in.

naturally, since he is playing such an extreme list, you would have to be a bit extreme in return, but with the two masters mentioned he is very unlikely to kill both in one round of shooting. if he doesnt, he is in big trouble.

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Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:38 am
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Dragon Lord
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Quote:
the bolt throwers are usually concidered more or less worthless, but they are one of the few things that can actually kill the CoHG/dawnstone master (since they do not allow armour saves, unlike cannons)


They can, but they still wound him on 4+. You still need to hit and wound him and pegasus gives him 3rd wound. I wouldn't give bolt throwers more than a turn of shooting after which the master is in combat with said bolt throwers.

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Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:33 am
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Shade
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I actually think I could win...lets break it down.
I should get the first turn, and sprint across the board, reducing the range to around 14 inches...or less for the cold one knights and harpies...and the harpies go in front of the coK. In shooting, the xbows will all fire together at one unit of handgunners-48 shots 8 hits 3 wounds....a few kills. The fire sorceress will try to IF full power fireball on a unit of handgunners, likely killing of 4-5 of them. The 5+ ward will go on the CoK

In his turn...he ought to shoot all his handgunners at a unit of WE and wipe them out. OK. The bolts throwers will probably fire at the CoK...with 6 shots 3 hits one ward save-2 dead. the three cannons will kill the hydra. And the organ guns will shoot at whatever killing of a few men.

And next...the CoK and can charge, and the WE and spears will try to charge, while at this range the xbows can wipe out another unit of handgunners....at which time I'm on top of them and hopefully I can roll them up !


Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:58 pm
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Executioner

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shooty vs shooty is a fun game to play. take max out archers and bolters and ranged magic and whatch your enemy whine as you mow down his forces


Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:12 pm
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The problem with that is that it doesn't work. Any strong shooty army either outranges us, or has massive warmachine support that REALLY outranges us.


Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:37 am
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Hmmm, what about taking out enemy warmachines with single shots from RBT's and using the RXB's and shades to whittle down enemy infantry?

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Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:29 am
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True indeed Vulcan.

You'd still be wounding on 5s vs T7 warmarchines Noble Korhedron and even if you get that, you have anywhere between a 33% chance (vs other repeater bolt throwers) to a 66% chance (against most warmachines) to a 100% chance (against extra crewed warmachines, e.g. dwarves or O&G) of not doing enough wounds to kill it. So that's probably a no go.

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Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:03 pm
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Red... wrote:
True indeed Vulcan.

You'd still be wounding on 5s vs T7 warmarchines Noble Korhedron and even if you get that, you have anywhere between a 33% chance (vs other repeater bolt throwers) to a 66% chance (against most warmachines) to a 100% chance (against extra crewed warmachines, e.g. dwarves or O&G) of not doing enough wounds to kill it. So that's probably a no go.
Q. there, Red. Are you saying we officially ignore the no. of wounds given in the army books now, and instead use the no. of crew as the no. of wounds?

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Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:06 pm
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it is specifically stated in the BRB that the number of wounds on the WM is not important, only the number of crew. (i thought i had "discovered" this myself a while ago, but BRB had already taken care of it)

As for single shot RBT vs another warmachine, it would do on average 0.33 wounds per shot (assuming long range and T7). that means you would have to spend almost 10 shots to get down a single enemy cannon. not a very viable strategy.

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Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:17 pm
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My way of taking down warmachines is often magic. Having spells like pit of shades and bladewind will make short work of warmachines for sure.

As for the shooting, I find really only the shades to be truly awesome at it. As our crossbows have too short range to stand and shoot all the time, we end up with lots of minuses to the actual shooting. Having BS 5 and march and shoot, the shades prevail for me. Forget the bolt throwers. They can kill lots of troops, but not warmachines, and they will be the first one to die from cannon shots (or any focused fire).

To win against a shooty army, the use of magic such as miasma, chillwind and word of pain can bring the enemy shooters down enough for your army to survive the initial barrages, and if you field some big blocks of spear elves, they should be strong enough to get into range.

You need those harpies/riders/shades though to keep the pressure up and force your opponent to either take them down or loose the warmachines. Even if you loose them outright, it gives you the one round you need to get close enough with the rest of your army.

I hate shooty armies, mostly because they are usually quite boring to play against.

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Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:16 pm
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