Help with HE archmage

[Lostshadow]

Having trouble beating this list

He takes this every game pretty much
Level 4 archmage lore of life, banner of sorcery
Book of hoath (but not all the time)
Uses 6 dice first turn to cast throne of vines (meaning he gets irresistable force and ignores it on a 2+) then casts dwellers below on my generals unit and kills him first turn sometimes

Every turn he only casts dwellers below with 6 dice, gets irresistable force and:
Turn 1 or 2: my general is dead
by turn 3 I have so few troops he moves in with phoneix guard, swordmasters and wipes the floor with me.
The only time I came close to winning was when I threw my black guard at his archmage (as by a complete fluke he failed to cast dwellers twice in a row, first 2 turns), shadow teleported my archmage into Close combat with him and used the dragon egg.
I caused 9 wounds with dragon egg, 9 with Black guard and mowed down his 40 spearmen as the cowards fled in terror.
Then I preceeded to be triple charged by phoneix, masters and a chariot.
But that was a total fluke.


I have also tried the ring of hotek, but that hasnt worked as he still gets a 2+ to ignore it with throne of vines.

I cant seem to find any list to take him out, I cant sit back and cast spells, as I lose my wizards quickly. A combat heavy list is the same. I get decimated by magic, suffering heavy casulties in combat as I Have no way of stopping other spells.

Just out of curiosity, would you consider an archmage level 4 (unable to miscast, throws 6 dice at killing my lord first turn), lore of life, banner of sorcery (D3 power dice).
Do you consider that cheesy?
My opponent doesnt

[Lord tsunami]

first, you do realize that it is only 1/3 chance of your general actually dying from dwellers, right? (since you say "him" i assume your general is a dreadlord) anyhow, many gaming groups house rule that the "insta kill" spells will do only 1 wound, or allow ward saves, since they do lessen the fun of the game a bit.

You sound so very desperate tbh, like he will hill your entire army with one casting of dwellers, and that just isnt the case. he will kill much, but not all your characters and combat units at once.

Dwellers become better the bigger units you have, so maybe you should go multiple smaller ones instead. You will need a good bit of shooting to bring the hurt on the HE troops before they reach CC. you do not have to play a gunline, but 3x10 RXB and one or two units of shades is not unreasonable for ~2500p games.

I always use dark magic, but whatever floats your boat tbh. shadow sounds reasonable against this. lower his toughness and strength and shoot him/slash him to pieces. he cant stop all of your magic. If he choses to go magic heavy, well two can play at that game. a lvl 4 with dagger and a lvl 2 for good measure should do the trick. He simply can not stop that magic phase. if he has 2+ ward against magic? fine you hex him and kill him with good old fashioned shooting instead. his fancy trinkets wont help him there. also, make sure you dispel the throne every phase. it will only take 2 power dice, and you should be able to spare them. he will have to recast next turn, and either waste a lot of dice to get an IF or cast it with fewer dice enabeling you to dispel it again. in either case he probably cant Get off two IFs in every turn to both cast the throne and dwellers. and if he does... he has still got a 17% chance of miscasting, and if he does that a few times he will miscast and who knows what will happen then. throne of vines actually works exactly like russian roulette (1 bullet and 5 empty chambers). how many times are you willing to pull the trigger?

For the units you use, BG with standard of HG could be fun to bring just to spoil his fun Also chariots are excellent. Just dont go for stuff like 40 executioners, cause they are just begging to be "dwelled from below". A cauldron never hurt any one (lol) and hydra is probably not half bad either. just stay away from the SMs because they always seem to have the flaming banner (well, you may know his army by now)

Last but not least... harpies. always harpies. if you chose to go for a "multiple medium units" approach, you must make sure that 2+ of your units fight one of his. harpies will enable you to control who fights what.

[Lostshadow]

I can only play 1500pts at the moment, thing is if we play 2000pts plus, he will then take techlis as well and this mage with lore of life, or maybe give techlis lore of life

Yes, I usually take a level 4 wizard, problem is I cant dispel his throne of vines.
he uses 6 dice, usually gets irresistable force, which he then is allowed to ignore it on a 2+ (faq says you can do this if you miscast when casting throne of vines)

I know the chances are not definantly going to kill my level 4 wizard first turn. But its a 50/50 chance with no saves of any kind.

My list normally has:
Supreme sorceress level 4 Dark
Sacrifical dagger
Dragon egg
Obsidian loadstone or talisman of presevation

Sorceress level 1 Fire
Lifetaker

Sorceress level 1 Fire
Darkstar Cloak

2 units of 20xbows

2 units of 5 shades

20black guard

2 chariots or two reaper bolt throwers

Like I said, he marches his army into range of boosted Dwellers below. Just in range of my general's unit.


If I go first, I usually do some considerable damage, using few dice and dagger to boost spells.
But then the pain comes. He checks his ranges and backs his army up as I march forward (been holding back with shooting lately, but still no avail, dwellers still kills me quick)
He just keeps casting dwellers which I cant dispell unless ultra lucky.
(When you can use 6 dice with no chance of a miscast, ignore on 2+ and item which ignores first miscast if he does get one)
Dwellers is almost gurranteed to cast every turn.
With a 50/50 chance to kill a 350pt mage each turn, thats a lot of points im losing.
Small units might help with some of the pain, but ill still lose my general quickly.

Yeah I tried a cauldron, but at 1500pts its difficult as its 200pts meaning ill have to sacrifice some shooting for it which isnt much good

[Rabidnid]

You will have to post a battle report because what you are saying makes no sense.

If he is casting vines on 6 dice and 5/6 dice on dwellers, (as it needs 21, or at least a double with the book) there is no way he can be casting dwellers with impunity every turn.

Shoot the unit he is in, or charge it with ASF banner CoKs and just kill him in close combat. Black horror and soul stealer will both wreck the unit he is in, while blade wind can snipe him out of the unit.

He has to be within 24" for dwellers, so shoot him a lot and see how many spells you can get off. As long as you stop drain magic you should be fine in your phase. Dispel vines and just chop up the rest of the army. HE are very expensive, so his army will be smaller than yours. Kill it with shooting and CC. remembering he won't get re-rolls against witches, CoKs or blackguard.

Run smaller units

Stop throne of vines.

It will also be worth killing the unit with the banner of sorcery.

[Lostshadow]

I cant dispell throne of vines

rolls six dice and gets irresistable, cant be dispelled.
Then casts dwellers (usually gets 12 dice with banner of sorcery)
Uses all his remaining dice with a + 4 to cast with his archmage.
If he doesnt get it, he can cast it next turn easily with all his dice.

If hes lucky, dwellers is cast first turn

If hes not, its second turn.

He has a 2nd mage in with his archmage which takes 2+ ward against magic, so I cant use magic to single him out. Because if he doesnt dispell it his lord has a 2+ ward against those wounds, so im wasting my power dice on a small chacne to cause a single wound (which lore of life attribute then restores)

Black horror, no chance, 2 + ward against it

Unit with banner of sorcery is 25 phoneix guard, they have 4+ ward saves. Never going to kill them with shooting.

Also his archmage either takes ignore miscasts or robes that mean only magical weapons hurt him and the item that makes magical weapons mundane so I cant hurt him in close combat or with spells.
I dont get close enough to use knights, they end up being the only unit left and get surrounded.

[Red...]

I feel your pain, I play against a very skilled high elf opponent who brings A LOT of magic to the table, and he's not even as cheesy as the guy you're up against.

A number of things.

1 - Do not tolerate his 'if I lose in the first turn it doesn't count' behaviour. Inform him quite clearly that it is sporting to play on beyond one turn and that if he doesn't want to play then you won't play period. It's pathetic for a player to only play on when they're winning and immediately throw their toys out of the pram if they seem to be losing.

2 - Lore of Life is possibly the nastiest lore in the game. There are however ways to crack it:

#1. Do not let him get off throne of vines. It is probably the number one spell to ensure that you dispel. If for some reason he gets it through, remember that it is a remains in play spell, so you can get rid of it in your subsequent magic phase (in fact, you really do need to, because if he's allowed to keep it on the board then he can kick your ass to sorry sunday on his next magic phase). With throne of vines out of the way, the rest of the spells in the lore of life list (except possibly dwellers) are all a lot more managable. But with it in play, the spells become monstrous (T7 Phoenix Guard, with their 5+ armour save and 4+ ward save are just sick, D6+1 troops regrown is nasty, and a 4+ regen save is not fun).

#2. Don't take big blocks of S3 troops. Taking Cold One Knights, Chariots and Executioners are all very good ways to avoid taking more than a third of a unit of casualties at any one time. Given that you will always be striking last anyway, a big horde unit of executioners can be a very good choice against High Elves. It's worth noting that even if he gets off flesh to stone on a unit of elves, they will only be T5 as long as you have dispeled Throne of Vines. That means Execs will still wound on 3s - not too shabby actually.

#3 Let through the spells that don't matter. This relies on your dispelling throne of vines to work (get the idea yet? dispel throne of vines!). The unboosted versions of regrowth and the regeneration spell are pretty weak really (especially with the regen one if you have forces with flaming attacks). Even flesh to stone is not game changing at T5. Shield of thorns and magic missile of woodiness are both pretty mediocre at best.

#4. An alternative strategy is to let him cast Throne of Vines and then dispel everything else. Personally I've not had much luck with this path because it means - as you correctly identify - he can start rolling fistfuls of dice (up to the 6 max) in the hope of getting irresistible forces. But it's one option nonetheless.

#5. Mage hunting can work, but don't pin your hopes on it. Most HE players will have tooled up their mages with lots of silly ways to avoid taking damage (the cloak of ignores all non-magical attacks but still doesn't count as being ethereal is a particularly cheesy example).

#6. If all else fails, swap your Dark Elves out for a tooled up Dwarf list. Take several grudge throwers with runes of penetration, a bunch of rune lords and rune smiths with anti-magic runes, add in a few organ guns and finish with some big blocks of T4 crossbowmen for good measure. Barring some exceptonal good fortune, he will never get to a point where he has any other option than to concede on turn 1.

Edit - just saw your list. One of your mages needs to be carrying a dispel scroll.

If he is running the Book of Hoeth, then that might explain how he is able to get irresistible force so easily on six dice. If he's not - it's actually quite unlikely for him to get it off reliably. If he is running the Book, sadly it goes out of my league to be able to advise what to do - I've never played against it.

The Banner of Saphery / Phoenix Guard combo is very unpleasant (again, I play against it frequently) and there's not too much you can do about it. The unit is a monster to kill (5+ armour save, followed by a 4+ ward save, with a toughness of 3, 5 or 7). Best thing you can do is to ensure you dispel throne of vines and then let through those spells you don't care about.

[Lostshadow]

I have not tried taking units that are smaller etc, I usually mass my units because I know the pain is coming.

I wish I could dispell throne of vines, but I usually cant as he rolls 6 dice straight off, and usually gets irresistable force and is allowed to use the 2+ from throne of vines to ignore the miscast (FaQ)
So straight away I cant stop it.
But taking higher strength units may work, I like the idea of executioners, as long as they avoid swordmasters I should easily win any close combat (Im thinking a unit of 10 with ASF banner, or maybe a more solid unit)

I feel I cant use mages at the moment, as im wasting points as they die easily from dwellers.

Only thing I can think of is to fight cheese with cheese and take only xbows, Reapers and mages, but I dont want to have to resort to playing that way as its no fun.


Lol, I dont tolerate the 'if im not winning I will concede' attitide. Ive already said if he does it again I wont play against him, in which the response is that if I take all shooting he wont play against that (because he knows he will lose)

What about all shooting, lore of fire and metal to boost attack damage from shooting? Has that been tried before?
I may get 1 or 2 spells off a turn this way and boost my shooting damage

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

#6. If all else fails, swap your Dark Elves out for a tooled up Dwarf list. Take several grudge throwers with runes of penetration, a bunch of rune lords and rune smiths with anti-magic runes, add in a few organ guns and finish with some big blocks of T4 crossbowmen for good measure. Barring some exceptonal good fortune, he will never get to a point where he has any other option than to concede on turn 1.

[Lostshadow]

I do have one idea though, how well do you think an army with no xbows work?
Forget my magic, ill just go full out spearmen, corsairs, black guard and cauldron of blood deployed right back at about 40" away from his mage and have the hag as my general, that way he cant get the points for killing her.
He will take an eagle, but I think somehow it will be ripped apart when it charges the cauldron of blood. 2 hag and hero should be about to rip it up easily enough.

My list so far has 80 spearmen, 40 strong, 30 strong and 10 strong for dagger
20 corsairs with with frenzy banner
15 black guard with war banner.

If I horde and move straight at his army, do you think id have any chance using a level 4 magic with lore of metal (for armour buffs and to hit buffs)
Ill keep the mage near the cauldron so he cant use dwellers at me (ill keep the mage 24" away from my own units with 10 spearmen, but not within range of his mage)
He will have this:
Sacrificial dagger
Talisman of preservation (4+ ward just in case something gets close to me)


Not sure what else to add, its 1500pts remember
Ill have to hope I can win in combat

[Red...]

The below table is lifted from http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 11174.page

odds of rolling at least two 6's
1D6 = 0% (just because i like to start at 1)
2D6 = 1/36 = 2.7%
3D6 = 16/216 = 7.04%
4D6 = 171/1296 = 13.9%
5D6 = 1526/7776 =19.6%
6D6 = 12281/46656 = 26.3%
7D6 = 92436/279936 = 33.%
8D6 = 663991/1679616 = 39.5%
9D6 = 4608946/10077696 = 45.7%
10D6 = 31169301/60466176 = 51.5%
11D6 = 206547056/362797056 = 56.9%
12D6 = 1346704211/2176782336 = 61.9%

So, on 6 D6 he should only be getting irresistible force off roughly one out of four times. That's once or twice per game, not once per turn. It would help of you could explain why your opponent is getting so many irresistible forces more before I can help further...(When he takes the book, that's obviously different, but when he doesn't - you shouldn't be facing such reliable IFs...)

The ASF Banner won't help on the Execs, because ASF and ASL cancel out, whereas all HEs retain ASF forever.

[Lostshadow]

Yeah sometimes he takes the book of hoeth, sometimes he doesnt.
When he still gets a high score with 6 dice, i throw everything at it to dispel, I have been lucky in one or two games and dispelled it.
When he rolls 6 dice, he rolls about only needs to roll a 3 on each dice getting 18, with + 4 it gets cast,

Thats assuming I do nothing agaisnt throne of vines.
If I dispell throne of vines, I cant stop dwellers below unless I roll 6 6, if I try and dispell dwellers below, the chances are still slim even with all my dispel dice.
Which means turn 2, he has throne of vines already cast (remains in play) and now casts dwellers easily.

Do you think hording as a tactic will work?

[Red...]

You can dispel remains in play spells in your magic phase as well as his. You should do so if he ever gets Throne of Vines off as a priority. That way it doesn't stick around to haunt you.

By the way, even with the Banner of Saphery he should still be getting an average of 9 dice (7 as an average, plus 2 for the banner), not 12. That means if he uses 6 to cast Throne of Vines, he should on average have just three left. I think he has access to a magic item that allows him an extra power dice too, but even then you're still looking at 10, not 12 dice as an average...

Hording has its pros and cons - I'm not sure that the strategy can be laid out in quite the way described, but I'm going to have to leave someone else to respond to that side of things, until tomorrow at least

[Lostshadow]

Yes, but that severly weakens my magic phase using my power dice to dispel. But if I only need to cast two spells (+2 armour and +1 to hit with metal) and the rest to dispell throne of vines thats already in play, I might be ok.
I still think holding my level 4 and cauldron far back will keep the enemy mage from killing my general and level 4.

The buffs should at the very least give me an even chance to defeat them in close combat.

[Grabuge]

Hi-ho Lostshadow,

Since your opponent may show up with different hard to break mage builds, you have no choice but to be prepared for each one of them. Sad but true.

If he takes Book of Hoeth on his archmage, use a small commando cavalry to wipe him. 6 naked (to keep them cheap) COK ranked 3X2 should do the job. Yes Phoenix Guards are hard to kill, but on the other side, they hardly kill anything themselves. You will have all the strength you need to kill the two mages and reap serious points.

If on the other hand he takes the talisman and enchanted item that makes him both etheral and unaffected by magic weapons, use a good Feedback Scroll right in the face when he uses 6 dices and doesn't get IF. On average, with no ward, you will not kill him so don't expect it. But It will scare the hell out of him and in future games he may ellect to roll less dice. Alternatively, you can kill the lvl 2with the scoll. Life magic is a great lore, but beside dwellers, he needs a different lore to dish any pain.

Finally, as general advice, I suggest you try and take your opponent army out in the close combat phase. Don't be afraid of the speed of assuryan. Elves of all kind dies so easily that it's hard for anybody to earn double the VP of the oppponent when the game comes close and dirty.

You may not win with my advice, but you're opponent neither. Not if he won't change his list.

It is my understanding that your first goal is not really to win, but to make games with him more enjoyable. Am I right?

PS: Just to make sure you know, even if he cast throne of wines with IF in his turn, you can still dispel it at basic value on you're own phase.

Good hunt!

[Phierlihy]

When you're outgunned, it's time to resort to trickery! Consider the Feedback Scroll. My Archmage, I will let your spell go off. Now roll 6 dice and take a wound for every die that is a 5 or a 6. Statistically that should leave him with only 1 wound and easy pickings for Bladewind or a sniping spell. When you only have a single wound left, one wound getting through with the Lore of Death is all it takes. Consider the Hex scroll. One third of the time he'll become a frog which is REALLY irritating.

Put your sorceress on a Dark Pegasus. Once you're out of line of sight, he can't target you. Sure he can keep targetting your other units but you'll keep your +4 to dispel in the game and that's huge.

Consider the "flying circus" army. Stick all your characters on Cold Ones, Pegasus, Dragons, and chariots. Run them all forward and keep everything else back.

If your "friend" is going to keep fielding the same combination you dislike, keep fielding the one he dislikes. Personally I'd just approach him and say "I'm really tired of playing against the same thing over and over. Can you mix up your list?" If he says no, start telling him about all the fun games you're playing against other people =) A friend of mine used to always bring Thorek. I told him to mix up his lists, he didn't, so now when he ask me for a game I ask if he's going to bring Thorek. If he says "yes", then I say I'm not interested. He got the point very quickly.

[Dalamar]

Have you tried taking the Crystal of Midnight? It's that item that nobody ever takes

Combine it with Lore of Death for Doom and Darkness (he might actually let that spell through, since it's not THAT harmful) for -3 Ld and watch him try to pass his Ld6 on 3 dice.

Then you have 50% chance (with Book of Hoeth he can have 4 spells maximum) he will lose either Throne of Vines, or Dwellers Below.

Another thing. With Book of Hoeth, he needs to roll for his spells, meaning a chance of not getting one or the other of his killy spells is there and it's higher than statistics would like to show.

Then you can take Lore of Metal for Final Transmutation. You might only have 1/6th chance of killing the Wizard, but every turn you will decimate his unit by a third. Nearly as good as boosted Dwellers.

[Lord tsunami]

just to make absolutely sure you know what we all mean, you should dispel throne of vines in YOUR phase (unless ofc he fails to get an IF). it will cost you 2 PD (remember you only have to roll a 4 with a lvl 4 mage to dispel it in your phase), but in return you are draining ~6 of his PD in the next phase. he cant get 10+ power dice in each phase even with the banner.

Even with the book he cant be guaranteed that he will get two IFs off in one phase, and if the throne is not cast with IF, you can scroll it (once at least) and be "safe" for that phase.

another option is to charge the wizard and kill him. it sounds like he has the wizard in a unit of PG, and he cant really keep that out of combat for the whole game if you wish otherwise. a charge with a chariot can be enough (the crew will do almost 2 wounds on average, and the cold ones may very well finish the job, though its not a guarantee). two chariots in a row (one in each turn) should pretty much be guaranteed to kill him though. if he has the book, he cant have much (any?) protection. Even PG are unlikely to kill the chariot before it gets to strike, and yes it will probably die or flee, but if you can kill his mage you are home safe. if you combine the chariot charge with miasma or word of pain he might even be hitting you on 5s and your cold ones might be hitting the mage on 3s making a kill even more likely.

another important thing is that dwellers can not be cast in to combat. if you are fighting, you are safe, so get fighting!

EDIT: here is the math for casting IF with the book of Hoeth

1 die: 0% (duh)
2 dice: 16,7%
3 dice: 44%
4 dice: 72%
5 dice: 91%
6 dice: 99,7%

[Lostshadow]

Thanks for all the advice so far, yes ive tried feedback scroll combined with the trickstar's shard, but remember even if I cause 2 wounds, everytime he casts a life spell his wound is restored.

His wizard leaves the unit and joins another before the combat starts, he flys eagles across my battleline so if I charge it makes my flanks exposed (eagle is at an angle) this means he also can instead of charging my flank instead his archmage now has a turn in which he has time to leave the unit and hide in another, or flee into some woods (by this time I have little left to fight with)

Ive come up with one idea though, this will frustrate him so much I would even hate to face it.

I take two reapers and deploy right against the wall, I then take
Sorceress level 4 FIRE
Sacrifical dagger
lifetaker

Sorceress level 1 fire
Darkstar cloak


Sorceress level 1
Earthing rod (THERES A ReASON READ ONWARDS!)

first level 4 charges up the reapers with flaming sword (please correct me if I cant do this)
48" hitting on 4s, now wounding on 2s!

I cast fireballs with level 4 carefully planning with the dagger (4 dice then + dagger if I fail?) and other sorcerss with darkstar cloak will wait for turn 2 when hes a bit closer or just cast power of darkness and get some more.

THEN I roll up to 6 dice (if I have them) if he still has dispel dice getting irresistable force with level 3 fireball, 48" range 3D6. But oh wait I have the earthing rod, so if i get a instant death, nope I dont have it plus she wont be in a unit as he has nothing for that kind of range so no accidental deaths to my troops.
Btw I am more than willing to sacrifice her down to 0 wounds (from miscasts) to do as much damage as possible, only my level 2 wizard though.

From our board size 50" longways. I guess 3-4 turns before he can reach me in combat at 35 - 40". Ill take out the units with no magic defence (swordmasters between 10 and 20) then spears (35-40) and leave the phoneix guard as they have all the ranged attack defence.
I will field no xbows, take a unit of 40 spearmen, with war banner (25pts for DE according to the faq)
and surround them with two chariots and black guard. Hopefully can hold them for a turn which will get me flank charges.

Oh and lifetaker is for the eagle, he will see my mage exposed in with 10 spearmen (which I imagine are high elf slaves my wizard is sacrificing ) but will get a shock when I start shooting at it


So thats at least 3 turns of fireballs level 3, 48" range 3D6 with hopefully 3 fireballs per turn. Not to mention the reaper throwers, that should give me a fighting chance and its not a list made of complete cheese.

He rarely fields anything other than infantry, apart from his eagle. But even then, Reapers can decimate most cavalry if I have two that can target them each turn.

[Lord tsunami]

flaming sword on reapers is a waste. better do it on normal RXBs. they benefit much much more from it.

you have to get rid of that eagle though. 5 harpies will usually do the trick, but shoot it if you have to. if he has invested in only a single eagle you should not allow him to dictate anything in the movement phase. oh, and the lifetaker you suggested might come in handy here

Overall, i thought you said that he was invensting heavily in magic defense, and going heavy magic wasnt an option. now you seem to be suggesting just that yourself. fire is indeed nasty against elves because we cant soak up kills like many other teams, but i would probably stay with dark magic anyway. black horror is so destructive its hardly even funny, and soulstealer is just icing on the cake Fire may work too though.

Going ~700 points worth of mages in a 1500 point army seems unwise though. a lvl 4 alone should be enough, but you could bring a lvl 2 as a scroll caddy. the third sorceress is just sheer madness. you need units too.

[Red...]

If he takes Book of Hoeth on his archmage, use a small commando cavalry to wipe him. 6 naked (to keep them cheap) COK ranked 3X2 should do the job.

This is excellent advice. Remember, if he takes the Book then (IIRC) he can't take any other magic items so his mage should be easy pickings...

The challenge with taking on a lore of life high elf army that is beating you on magic is that it is very easy for him to make his units all but untouchable in combat, especially if he is getting Throne of Vines off each turn. Earthblood will give his mage and the unit it is in a 4+ regen save, flesh to stone will make one unit T7 and regrowth will allow him to regrow D6+1 models every turn. Add to that the lore of life's ability to restore wounds to multiwound models, and you're going to struggle against him. UNLESS you can compromise his magic phase.

The list you are up again sounds remarkably similar to the 3k list I face when playing against High Elves. He takes:

Level 4 with wand of pick your spells and cloak of can't hurt with me with non-magic weapons
Level 2 dragon mage with dispel scroll
Cadyran
Battle Standard Bearer with full mundane armour

35 Lothern Seaguard (BSB goes here) (5x7)
20 Lothern Seaguard (4x5)
20 Archers (2x10)

Tiranoc Chariot
21 Phoenix Guard with Banner of Saphery
10 White Lions
8 Silverhelms
8 Shadow warriors

Eagle
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

His magic phase is brutal, because he gets the +D3 dice from the banner, as well as a free extra dice on the dragon mage every time he casts. He has his pick of lore of life spells and can always take flaming rod of rhuin on the dragon mage. He can really lay down the pain thickly during the shooting phase (those 35 Lotherns get 26 shots when volley firing, the 20 lotherns get a further 16, the archers get 20, the shadowmasters get 8, the repeaters get 12 and even the tiranoc chariot gets 2 - for a total of 139 shots, including up to 38 of them at S4 (thanks to Flaming Sword and the fact mulitshotting repeaters are latently S4). That's horrendous, especially as he usually finishes deploying first and takes the item of +1 to starting rolls, meaning he usually goes first!

If I do make it across the table, his unit of Phoenix Guard and Lothern Seaguard are more than a match for whatever I can hit them with, especially if they are beefed up with regen saves and higher toughnesses.

Best way I've found to beat him is:

- Taking 4 Chariots. They are impervious to most of his army's weapons and do a lot of unpleasant damage with impact hits.
- Taking multiple medium sized units, including 3 or 4 units of RxBs.
- Beefing up my army's survivability through measures such as taking the Ring of Darkness, taking a Cauldron of Blood and taking lore of metal (for that helpful +2 to armour save spell, especially useful when you get the higher level one off, giving that to all units within 12")
- Taking a level 4 with sacrificial dagger (to ensure I can win heavily in my own magic phase) and a level 1 with dispel scroll (to cancel out a game changing spell at just the right moment).

If all else fails, take this dude:

Dreadlord on a Dark Pegasus
Cloak of HG
Dawnstone
Crown of Command
Soul Render
Heavy armour, shield

The dude has a re-rollable 1+ save against shooting and magic attacks, combined with the ability to halve the S of said attacks. He is also stubborn. That makes him immune to almost everything but dwellers below (which he still has a 66% chance of surviving). Send him across the table as fast as possible and throw him into the face of your opponent's biggest, scariest unit. He'll sit there for the rest of the game, while your opponent's unit is effectively disabled. Ideally kill the enemy mage with him if you can, but don't worry about it if you can't.

[Setomidor]

First; why are you still playing this guy?

Second, I think you've gotten good advice already. A bit of an outsider can be to bring a Dragon alongside a pegasus master or two. Start well outside range of Dwellers and go for a turn two charge, try to charge simultaneously with a Pegasus Master so you can make sure your Dragon does not get stuck in a challenge, and just try to roll him over. You will have to weather one Dwellers on the Dragon, so bring a Scroll on a supporting mage and hope he doesn't roll IF. If he does, you still have a very decent chance of surviving. If General dies, the Dragon is still able to charge and kill his Mage. Remember; BOTH Dragon AND your Lord has to die for him to get any points for them.

[Lostshadow]

I was under the impression that you cant have a sea dragon cloak and a shield so you cant have the cloak of hag greif with a shield on a dreadlord as it says it counts as a sea dragon cloak.

[Red...]

You were under the wrong impression - I've no idea where you got that idea from. Taking a shield and a sea dragon cloak is not only legal, but almost universally done. Taking a combat character without both would be silly.

[Lostshadow]

Oops my bad. it says 'may not take both' above sea dragon cloak and shield but I just realised its for heavy and light armour.

How about this for 3 heroes:

THE LORD you meantioned as general.

Battle standard bearer (so lord has re rollable break test at stubborn LD10, I know he probably will be ok, but one failed LD could mess up the whole plan)
B. standard has armour of darkness and ring of hotek.
Sorceress level 2 (what lore should I choose?

Ill max out the rest of my army in combat, not shooting, as ill want to flank the unit my general is holding.
Should he charge first turn? Thats risking a failed charge for him though, or fly him far to the flank and avoid dwellers.


And he can get dwellers, if he rolls a single duplicate spell when rolling lore of life (which most people get at lesat 1 duplicate) he can choose it so chances are slim at not getting it

[Vulcan]

The problem is not your opponet's army. Your problem is your opponent.

He quits if he can't get Dwellers off to wreck your biggest unit in turn 1? He's TFG. Don't play him.