Dark Elves vs Bretonnians

[Wardancer X]

hello my fellow Druchii,

On Wednesday I will likely be facing a 2000 point Bretonnian army, that will undoubtedly include the following:

1x huge block of men at arms

1x lord with heroic killing blow and rerolls to hit and rerolls on 1s to wound

1x lvl 4 wizard with lore of life (i predict lore of life)

3+ pegasus knights

Loads of knights

2x trebuchets


I've already had a few thoughts on how to deal with some of these threats, but I would be interested in your opinions and thoughts.

First, I guess you should take a look at the list I will be bringing (which essentially includes every model I own) so you can get an idea for the tools I have at my disposal to deal with this stuff.

22x Black arc corsairs (set up in rows of 6)
mus/std/sea serpent banner

10x rep bowmen with mus

5x dark riders with rep crossbows

5x harpies


5x cold one Knights with mus/std Hag grief Banner

15x witch elves (set up in rows of 6) with mus/std

20x black guard mus/std/razor standard (rows of 5)

2x Repeater Bolt Throwers


Dreadlord on a cold one (in the cold one knight unit) crimson death/heavy armor/sea dragon cloak/crown of command/PoK

bsb (in corsairs) with halberd/heavy armor/sea dragon cloak/banner of murder

assassin (in corsairs) extra hand wep/killing blow gift from khaine

lvl 2 sorc (starts in corsairs) - tome of furion


So to start i think I'm going to have the sorc take the lore of metal. Sounds really nasty against brets for direct damage, and for nurfing their armor. as brets really on have toughness 3, so if i can negate their armor, or get my own armor up to par with theirs i think I will do just fine.

In terms of troop match ups, I was hoping to get my my witches into combat with his men at arms. I think they will make short work of them. The witches may not be able to break the men at arms on their own, but they will help widdle down their numbers and should at least win the first round of combat.

Harpies and Dark Riders are obviously on treb duty.

The bolt throwers are gonna be lobbing multi shots volleys at units of knights, hoping to kill a few with a minus 2 armor modifer, though its still gonna be a 4+ for them and then the 6+ ward from praying. On the plus side, each bolt thrower will only have to kill 4 knights over the course of the game to make their points back.

The black guard are gonna try to absorb a charge from knights, and wait for the cold ones to come in on a counter charge.

The corsairs are largely gonna be left to their own devices, but they'll strike first at knights even if they get charged, have an armor piercing banner on them, and should hopefully at least get 1 buff/debuff from the mage to help them out. The assassin in the unit should also be able to handle any scary bsb or mage in the unit they encounter.

I guess the only real threat I haven't given any thought to, is how to deal with pegasus knights. Should I just sac my 10x repXbowmen to shoot at them and jump out in front in order to protect the bolt throwers?

Open to any thoughts/suggestions you may have. Thanks

[Drek]

I just played Brets last night, actually.

Pegasus knights are a huge pain because you don't quite know where they will end up. They are T4, 2 wounds, but only 3+ AS. RBT's with multishot can really put a hurt on them. The problem, of course, is that if you put your RBT's too close he can take them both out at once. But I've found shooting and magic are the way to handle Peggy knights.

You are going to be taking a lot of charges in the face. Your only redirectors are on War Machine duty, which is fine because those Trebuchets can maul you, but then you don't have any way to slow him or redirect him. BG can take a charge from a unit of Knights and not crumble, but I'm not sure about the WE or Corsairs. I would set up the BG as an anvil, and plan a counter charge with the WE. Corsairs can handle the Men at Arms, which he will probably put on a flank. You will want to put the Corsairs to the flank side of his MAA, so that he has to turn them to protect their flank. You could use your RXB dudes as a speedbump for one of the Knight units, and I suppose you will have to play chicken with the third with your COK. I'd rather speedbump his deathstar. You might do well if you get the charge with the COK, but if he charges you it won't go well.

Hope that helps!

[Wardancer X]

I'm not so sure about using the WE instead of corsairs to pull off a counter charge on the knights. Yes they have hatred, and poison weps and frenzy, but they have no armor modifier whatsoever, and are gonna be hitting knights on 4s. The knights then get to save on a 2+ and then a 6+ ward which means the witches won't do much to knights. The corsairs on the other hand have an armor piercing banner, and an assassin and a bsb with a halberd to help out with armor penetration. Moreover, because 8th edition is ridiculous, even if he gets a knights charge off on my corsairs, I will get to strike first, with reroll to hit. Hence, i feel corsairs should be on knight duty (maybe backing up the BG or acting as an anvil on their own) and the witches should head into the MAA.


As for the Cok, you are right, i will be playing cat and mouse trying to get in a charge, and thats why i'm hoping the corsairs and or BG can survive a charge for a turn. Alternatively, the dread lord with the Pok and Crown of Command should be able to hold his own against the knights even if he doesn't get the charge. Even if the rest of the CoK fall off, the lord will still be there as an anvil to hold out for a counter charge.... obviously i will do my best to get the charge though...

What do you think the RxBs should be shooting at? i'm thinking the peg knights, just cuz killing a few extra men at arms ain't gonna help much, and knights will still get a 3+/6+ ward save.

[Trax]

Witch Elves with the Banner of Murder are kinda nasty against even 2+ AS units. Maybe put some withering on them as well - or just mindrazor them. There are ways with Witch Elves, Banner of Murder is a good starting point.

[Drek]

He's going Metal, so no Mindrazor.

I'm not so sure about using the WE instead of corsairs to pull off a counter charge on the knights.

Ah, I missed that you have tooled up characters with the Corsairs. Well, then maybe they will do better. However, that BSB and sorc will make that Corsair unit a juicy target. My guess is that if you put them in there, he will charge them. So be prepared for a charge in the face with them. That's the target he will go after the most, I expect. Which brings me to....

Alternatively, the dread lord with the Pok and Crown of Command should be able to hold his own against the knights even if he doesn't get the charge. Even if the rest of the CoK fall off, the lord will still be there as an anvil to hold out for a counter charge.... obviously i will do my best to get the charge though...

Once again, I missed that. I like the concept, but if your COK get charged then who's gonna counter charge? He will have three units of knights and a unit of MAA vs your four units. You're even. Your RXB dudes will probably need to be sacrificed to get one of his units out of the way.

What do you think the RxBs should be shooting at? i'm thinking the peg knights, just cuz killing a few extra men at arms ain't gonna help much, and knights will still get a 3+/6+ ward save.

I wouldn't shoot the MAA unless they were the only option. I'd shoot the Peg knights first and then regular knights second. But odds are the Peg knights will be on a flank, so you may not get the chance with RXB's. Grail knights have GW, I believe, so against RXB they are saving on 4+, they are a tasty target. Even against regular 2+ AS knights 20 RXB shots at long range without moving is 6.67 hits, 3.33 wounds, you should kill one knight per turn. Against grail knights you can kill three in two turns of shooting, which can be the difference between winning and losing a combat.

[Daeron]

Hmm... Some configurations would be somewhat counter intuitive to my own, but... Not necessarily bad. I haven't faced 8th edition Bretts yet, so if I make an obvious mistake, feel free to correct me.

Calculating your list, I hit over 2100 points. I fear something needs to drop.

You spread a lot of armor piercing power, so it's definitely a good balance to make each unit "capable" of standing on its own, but it feels a bit too spread out to me. Then there's a few oddities, perhaps too much backup: Crimson Death on a Lord with a banner of Hag Graef in the unit when a great weapon could give almost the same. The banner of Hag Graef is a good banner for a grind, but against 2+ AS troops, the banner of murder would outperform it in both charge and subsequent turns. The Crown of Command on a Dreadlord, yet a mild focus to make him kill stuff (when survivability would have more merrit). I mean, it's unlikely that his units will kill more than your unit, unless they win the charge. But if you're counting on letting him get the charge, then you made your COK unit somewhat expensive. If you feel like getting the charge, then it's unlikely you'll need the Crown of Command.

Similarly, you made your Corsairs quite powerful by putting a banner of armor piercing in there, but the unit becomes costly. Your witch elves then run at a size that's a tad too big to be sacrificial fodder but not enough protected to get some killing in.
It looks like everything is a jack of all trades but master of none. I feel like the list could very well run without the Sorceress with this kind of setup which certainly gives the list of a lot resilience, but difficulty to score a big hit.

I think the weakness of this list is, aside from the difficulty to score a big hit, is that a lot of its power will only weigh through in subsequent rounds of combat... and you lack the means to take the initiative in the charges. You won't be in control of the game, and so need to brace for the worst... Without means to blow away your opponent.

If you would permit some list changes, I would:

- Make the Dreadlord on a pegasus, Giant Blade, Pendant of Kaelth, full mundane armor, potion of foolhardiness. Perhaps your opponent can be kind enough to borrow you a Peg knight, but then bind a cord on the model's neck to make it stand out.
- Cauldron of Blood, BSB. You can use a chariot base with 3 of your witch elves.
- Sorceress, level 2, Tome of Furion, Ruby ring of Rhuin ... though you could take the pearl of infinite bleakness or the guiding eye
- 30 Corsairs, B, Mus, SSS in Horde formation. (you can add 8 WE's in the rear rank to complete the unit)
- 12 RXBs, Mus
- 5 DRs, Mus, RXBs
- 5 Harpies
- 5 COKs with musician
- 20 BGs, B, M, Banner of Murder
- 2 RBTs

Now, this list has a few tricks up its sleeve. The Drealord is still capable of stopping any unit without 3-4 ranks. At S7, he'll wound on 2s and leave little for armor saves. The potion can be used on the charge, giving him a 5th attack and the buff from the COB can boost it to 6 attacks. 6 attacks on 3+ with reroll, 2+ and 6+ AS. He'll kill almost as many as he has attacks and there but few things that can put a dent on him. With his mobility he can take the initiative on the charge and you can have a dance with his peg knights. He can also hunt the warmachines.

The Corsair unit doesn't have its stand alone killing power.. true. But it offers a massive amount of attacks. If needed, they can take the charge from him and still have enough bodies to remain steadfast (he'll need to kill 16 if he has a front rank). In your own turn, you can give them the COB killing blow buff and watch his unit disappear.

The COB is your ace card. The extra attack on the dreadlord, killing blow on the corsairs... but while you're still moving around it can also put a ward save on the black guards against the trebuchets.

Your corsairs can also perform a grinding unit against his men at arms.

The black guards are your grinding anvil, the one unit that probably will need the least of support. Place them in a 2x10 formation: you want as many of them in combat as you can get... Additionally this makes them a bit less fragile to the trebuchet. With a better initiative than most of his knights you'll strike first. Here's the gruesome result of them fighting a unit of 5 knights in 1 turn of combat:
http://warhammer.orderoftheathanor.eu/C ... 4:0:4:1:24
The unit is most likely dead. Against the peg knights the results are more or less the same.
This is why you'll want to give them the Ward save from the COB unless the buff is needed for the dreadlord or Corsairs.

Your Sorceress remains a weak spot in the unit which is why I'd consider the pearl of infinite bleakness.. but if you keep her near the BSB (which is easier to do with a COB than the halberd BSB) she should be fine. Another bonus is that the spell "Enchanted blades of Aiban" becomes a lot more powerful, which is one of the easier to cast spells for a level 2. Even your Dreadlord can use it, getting a 2+ to hit and negating even a 2+ armor save completely. Now who's scary?
Your Corsairs and COKs would benefit from it as well. In particular your Corsairs could get the buff defensively if you fear they will be charged.
Glittering robe will be a devastating spell on either corsairs or BGs. That's not unlike before... but combined with the Ward save on the BGs and the extra bodies on the Corsairs, the units have far more resilience than before. This spell will become the final hit that seals the deal of making the list "tough".
Gehenna's golden hounds is considered a weak spell, but in this case it can work like a second searing doom IF the enemy unit has a champion or character. They are forced to take Sir Look Out rolls, which permits you to spread the damage on the unit.

Your COKs have become cheap.. but their 2+ AS still makes still resilient enough to hold up an enemy unit provided they win the charge. You can still use them as redirectors or counter charge unit... Or simply as a road block.. and who knows.. they might be lucky enough to threaten the warmachines (though I wouldn't bet on it).


And finally... a cheat chart for your sorceress:
- Searing doom, unboosted, 4 dice is optimal, 3 dice is good if it's not the first spell or you accept a small risk.
- Searing doom, boosted, 7 dice to get it reliably. 6 dice is a small risk.
- Plague of Rust, 3 dice to be certain, 2 dice with a small risk
- Enchanted blades, 3 dice is very good. 2 dice is a big risk. 4 dice is too costly for the bonus unless you really need it.
- Glittering robe, same deal.
- Gehenna's, unboosted, same deal
- Gehenna's, boosted, 5 dice is perfect. less is a risk, more is a waste.
- Transmutation of lead, unboosted, same deal
- Transmutation of lead, boosted, 5 dice is good. Less is a risk. 6 is slightly better if you need it.
- Final transmutation, unboosted, same deal.
- Final transmutation, boosted, 6 dice is good. 7 dice is better if you really really need it. 5 dice is taking a risk (but ok if it's the last spell of the phase)

With some spells working on 3 dice, you could try keeping the Power of Darkness until the very end (this avoids taking hits from unused powerdice). So you use up all powerdice except 1, then cast power of darkness. It yields at least 2 dice.. possibly 3 or 4. That's always good for that small extra spell.

[Daeron]

Ohh.. also.. with this list you might as well take Death or Shadow. Withering or soulblight + bolt throwers and RXB fire will still be powerful. Doom and Darkness might just make them turn tail and run (and it might just make them loose against COKs! )
You might catch your opponent unawares with these lores. Though Metal certainly is a solid choice. If you could get plague of rust, it's probably a comfortable game.

[Wardancer X]

So the battle ended up being a combined dark elf / daemons of chaos army vs a combined high elf and bretonnian army, 3k a side, 1500 a player.

I ran

16x black guard, banner of murder and mus

22x corsairs, frenzy banner, with bsb inside with razor banner and mus

10x RepXbowmen and mus

5 x cold ones with mus

2x reapers

Lord with greatweapon on cold one, with Pok and crown of command in cold one unit

lvl 2 sorc with tome of furion, Dark magic (cuz my ally was running metal)


I am happy to report not just a win, but a slaughter! The bret player went 100% cavalry, while the high elf player chose 12 x silver helms, and 12x dragon princes with swordmasters and sea guard in reserve. Not sure if any of you noticed when reading the list, but with the exception of the cold one knights, every unit is armor piercing. turn 1 i killed 6 dragon princes with shooting. turn 2 i killed 6 silver helms with shooting. They both charged my black guard, but the guard gobbled them both up, including a fighty hero included with the princes I also killed 10 sword masters with shooting on turn 3, and my ally creamated the sea guard with 2 x warpflame chariots. The corsairs held their ground against two full and simultaneous bret knight bus charges, but the bsb eventually lost in a challenge against their lord after 2 rounds of combat, and after losing frenzy, the corsairs broke and got caught after turn 4. They were my only loss of victory points on the day however.


Really what I learned is a) the value of reaper shooting at cav. Volume of armor piercing fire can be devastating and b) black guard are the bomb. They can take a charge, and with armor piercing and re-rolling to hit, they can pack a real punch.

Next I think i'm going to build myself a cauldron of blood (makeshift from bits etc but with real witch elves) and piece together a 2500 point character heavy list.
I wanna run the cauldron not even as my bsb, but just as an extra buff. I may even consider a 2k list, where i forgo magic altogether and just bring a cauldron and a separate bsb.

[Firebird4life]

A few of the things I've run that worked well against the Bretonnian player in our campaign:

* big block of Executioners (I took about 25-30). Add in a Death Hag w/ the ASF banner (Banner of Hag Graef?) and it makes for a NASTY surprise if they're expecting to go first. Trounced his Knights pretty hard.

* Assassin(s) with Extra Hand Weapon + Rune of Khaine + Touch of Death: 4-7 Attacks that could land Killing Blow

* Several small units of Witch Elves can really help turn the tide by hitting a flank charge against Knights

* Lv. 4 Shadow Sorceress + Lv. 2 Death Sorceress: Shadow buffs your troops with Mindrazor or nails enemy units with Pendulum, them *BAMF* trades places with the Death Sorceress who snipes the Bretonnian BSB or Damsel/Prophetess. Bretonnia has some strong dependency on characters, so the Death lore should be especially scary to them.

* Shadow Sorceress uses Withering on the Knights while the RBTs and RXBs tear them to shreds.

[Kurze]

Lance formations Are quite susceptible to penetrating hits from our bolt throwers.
Focus on killing the knights and Pegasus knights with your shooting. Men at arms die in droves if you just look at them sideways.
Harpies and dark riders will easily take out the trebuchets. Just watch out for any longbowmen, they have a surprisingly long reach and can volley fire.

Well done on your win though! Always good for the confidence eh?

[Drek]

Congrats on the win! Now you're the expert.

[Dakeyras]

Great to hear you got the win, nice work. The last time I played brets with my druchii, I got the distinct impression that my opponent had never met Malekith's personal body guard before
I left my 20 black guard in front of his lance (banner of murder for the win), threw killing blow on them from the cauldron, as well as shadow hexing his knights...and...he actually charged them...
It was utter carnage, the Black guard ruined them.
Also, vs Brets, a bloody great mass of execs (40 is lovely, add banner of murder for laughs) with asf hag is like running into a blender for knights, makes a mockery of their nice armour.
D.

[marcopollo]

Nice Job on the win.

Brets have some serious disadvantages in the movement phase. Their lances are so long that with angled deflectors, you can get them to expose their flanks very easy. This messes up their movement phase. The only thing is that you need good bait. For me, I use small CoK units or a chuck norris peg hero/lord to angle deflect them. These guys don't get shot up and are usually glossed over by trebs. Positioned properly, you can threaten archers and then their backfield, while providing a tempting target for the lances. But once you get them crossed up, they are vulnerable.

Knights work best in a vertical attack. But they have terrible lateral movement. PK and other flying hero's are all they have to mitigate this. The footprint of the bret army is its biggest weakness.

[Banja]

Hehe congratz on the win.

I hate going versus bretonnia, and its just cause of the trebs. S5 needs a nerf. I was going to advise against taking bg but since he dident take trebs it worked out well. Nothing like seeing a template hit the BG and he just have to roll2 to make a bucket die.

[Jvh792]

Great Job! I sounds like you guys had a good counter list to theirs and you got pretty lucky with your shooting! Always fun when they barely get any points off of you.