Warhammer - the game of toy soldiers.
Strollinthewoods has previously posted in D.net some interesting tactical articles.
In this very, very long article, there is a highly interesting analysis of the metagame,
especially how Druchii MSU can beat hordes.
Nice article about MSU vs hordes, by Strollinthewoods
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Nice article about MSU vs hordes, by Strollinthewoods
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Irrelevant
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Dalamar
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- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
As I'm reading, the first thing comes to my mind is that Warhammer is NOT Starcraft. I play both sure, and they both revolve around similar and different concepts.
In Starcraft you know exactly what your opponent can and can't field against you, there are no secrets. You might find out too late that he got upgrade X that totally ruined your army but most of the time you can see it coming.
Warhammer is a game where surprises like flaming attacks, an assassin in the midst of witch elves or unkillable dreadlord are meant to be surprises, and your opponent is meant to prepare for them.
The thing the writer misses: He assumes hordes are low armored T3 troops like Flagellants or Marauders. That probably means he never faced a horde of Tzeentch Chaos Chosen with War Altar Support. All of his small units would simply bounce off the heavily armored/warded block and he would get no points from the massive (very likely over 50% value of the army in the unit alone, then add characters) indestructible block.
I do have to totally agree with this statement though:
Overall, I read it all, and I would skip the parts where he talks about starcraft, they are largely irrelevant to Warhammer. But at the end when he moves to comparing Warhammer to Warcraft and "defending your base" Those are some really good points he makes.
In Starcraft you know exactly what your opponent can and can't field against you, there are no secrets. You might find out too late that he got upgrade X that totally ruined your army but most of the time you can see it coming.
Warhammer is a game where surprises like flaming attacks, an assassin in the midst of witch elves or unkillable dreadlord are meant to be surprises, and your opponent is meant to prepare for them.
The thing the writer misses: He assumes hordes are low armored T3 troops like Flagellants or Marauders. That probably means he never faced a horde of Tzeentch Chaos Chosen with War Altar Support. All of his small units would simply bounce off the heavily armored/warded block and he would get no points from the massive (very likely over 50% value of the army in the unit alone, then add characters) indestructible block.
I do have to totally agree with this statement though:
Why why do people want to comp the game when there are perfectly good solutions whithin the game itself. I do not know. But I can only speculate. What I like with 8ed, and this is very close to were I started this post, is that here are no problems I cannot solve using the tools give to me by the rules.
Overall, I read it all, and I would skip the parts where he talks about starcraft, they are largely irrelevant to Warhammer. But at the end when he moves to comparing Warhammer to Warcraft and "defending your base" Those are some really good points he makes.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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A.andersson
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Wow! one of the greatest articles on warhammer tactica i've read! I just have to agree about everything (except duobble hydra). In my area we just held a pretty big tournament 60 players. There were very few hordes present, the ones that were fielded were quickly dealt with! :p
Dalamar: I think that against such a unit he would just redirect it the entier game. Killing of all the support and end the game with a pretty solid victory. Ive actually managed that myself. It is not so hard if you just have sufficent units of harpies and let your big units flee if the situation arise.
Dalamar: I think that against such a unit he would just redirect it the entier game. Killing of all the support and end the game with a pretty solid victory. Ive actually managed that myself. It is not so hard if you just have sufficent units of harpies and let your big units flee if the situation arise.
Last edited by A.andersson on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
great read, no completely finished with it yet but went ahead and built a list using MSU gonna have to try it out in the next couple weeks. i think it would do well against most builds not just hordes. with the great maneuverability and having so many more units i think it could overwhelm many opponents not knowing which units to focus on.
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Dalamar
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Dalamar: I think that against such a unit he would just redirect it the entier game. Killing of all the support and end the game with a pretty solid victory. Ive actually managed that myself. It is not so hard if you just have sufficent units of harpies and let your big units flee if the situation arise.
He wouldn't win then. He's bound to lose some units, and support for this behemoth isn't easy to kill. Usually strong enough to hold until the giant comes into play. Yes, he'd stop it with the unkillable dreadlord. For a time, and then he'd lose 500 points which usually is all that chaos player needs to pull off a victory.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
I had a quick skim - looked like an interesting read.
I did feel a little sad, though, that his answer to mammoths appears to include taking such boredom choices as multiple hydras and unkillable dreadlords. So he solves the mammoth problem by making the game not fun...Score?
I did feel a little sad, though, that his answer to mammoths appears to include taking such boredom choices as multiple hydras and unkillable dreadlords. So he solves the mammoth problem by making the game not fun...Score?
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
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Winning at all cost mentality is definitely in the author's head.
If you have access to a tool, and the tool helps you win, there is no reason not to use that tool.
If you have access to a tool, and the tool helps you win, there is no reason not to use that tool.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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A.andersson
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- Location: sweden
Yeah absolutely I dont agree with the unkillable and the doubble hydra not at all. I am more in tune with harpies and then use super mobile peg masters + dreads to score points, as well as lv4 death, few things cost more than his characters. In turn 6 i might tripple charge him with all the flyers and then throw every single dice on doom and darkness... And just pray! 
but I'm allways playing in a heavy comp environment, might not work at all for you.
Besides i don't think that darkelves is the army that needs a comped environment, it is the weaker armies like bretts, empire, etc. since we started to comp, the game become much more in depth and fun to play!
but I'm allways playing in a heavy comp environment, might not work at all for you.
Besides i don't think that darkelves is the army that needs a comped environment, it is the weaker armies like bretts, empire, etc. since we started to comp, the game become much more in depth and fun to play!
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Lord tsunami
- Malekith's Best Friend
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- Location: Behind you!
Interesting read. i by no means agree with all of it, but there are many interesting points indeed. i myself play much smaller units than many others (14 BG for example) though it is not a true MSU army.
I do think that he draws the starcraft comparison a bit too far, especially about the matagame. i played starcraft for a couple of months, and i played well over a thousand games. i have played about thirty warhammer games this year in a coupple of months. the nature of "evolution" is that it happens between games. a starcraft player often plays 10 games a day, while a warhammer player plays a game a week. naturally the changes and evolution of the metagame of starcraft will be several orders of magnitude faster.
i for one have no problem countering big hordes with an unkillable lord (except that as a gentleman i have sworn not to
). an unkillable lord is the "counter" to a chosenstar, and if you remove the unkillable lord, the chosenstar will thrive and grow and become more and more common. the inkillable lord is not more boring than the chosenstar is, and in a MSU environment the unkillable lord will shrivel and die, since MSU is the "counter" to him.
If i were not sworn to gentlemanship, i would tell one and all to use the unkillable lord while we can to keep boring chosenstars in check, but with an MSU approach you can use harpies and dark riders to distract the chosenstar and pounce on his other units. it is much harder than the unkillable lord, but the result is the same.
for some final ramblings about the starcraft comparison, that game is much more built on "counters". It is not true that if you have one marauder (in SC2) you can kill any number of roaches, but if you go marauders and your opponent goes roaches you will win. if he quickly switches to mutalisks though... In warhammer, the balance between units is different. it is not like you could buy a special kind of unit that will beat chosenstars (unless you count the unkillable lord), and therefore the chosenstar is a calculated risk you take. a chosenstar is the closest thing to an "i win" button that exists in warhammer. it has no real weakness. you will not have many of them, but they are simply strong against everything. no metagame change can really change that. if there was a "mutalisk" that could fly around and kill the chosenstar in a few turns without the chaos player being able to do anything about it, you would have much more possibility for metagame changes. as is, we will have to accept slower and smaller changes.
I do think that he draws the starcraft comparison a bit too far, especially about the matagame. i played starcraft for a couple of months, and i played well over a thousand games. i have played about thirty warhammer games this year in a coupple of months. the nature of "evolution" is that it happens between games. a starcraft player often plays 10 games a day, while a warhammer player plays a game a week. naturally the changes and evolution of the metagame of starcraft will be several orders of magnitude faster.
i for one have no problem countering big hordes with an unkillable lord (except that as a gentleman i have sworn not to
). an unkillable lord is the "counter" to a chosenstar, and if you remove the unkillable lord, the chosenstar will thrive and grow and become more and more common. the inkillable lord is not more boring than the chosenstar is, and in a MSU environment the unkillable lord will shrivel and die, since MSU is the "counter" to him.
If i were not sworn to gentlemanship, i would tell one and all to use the unkillable lord while we can to keep boring chosenstars in check, but with an MSU approach you can use harpies and dark riders to distract the chosenstar and pounce on his other units. it is much harder than the unkillable lord, but the result is the same.
for some final ramblings about the starcraft comparison, that game is much more built on "counters". It is not true that if you have one marauder (in SC2) you can kill any number of roaches, but if you go marauders and your opponent goes roaches you will win. if he quickly switches to mutalisks though... In warhammer, the balance between units is different. it is not like you could buy a special kind of unit that will beat chosenstars (unless you count the unkillable lord), and therefore the chosenstar is a calculated risk you take. a chosenstar is the closest thing to an "i win" button that exists in warhammer. it has no real weakness. you will not have many of them, but they are simply strong against everything. no metagame change can really change that. if there was a "mutalisk" that could fly around and kill the chosenstar in a few turns without the chaos player being able to do anything about it, you would have much more possibility for metagame changes. as is, we will have to accept slower and smaller changes.
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
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Raneth
- Malekith's Best Friend
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I don't agree at all; if an opponent isn't familiar with your army's rules you should allow yourself to take full advantage. In my (slightly twisted) mind you'd even be doing the foe a favor; the more traumatic the experience the more likely (s)he'll familiarise him/herself more with the rules, meaning you'll have a better opponent out of it next time.
The reverse is also true. If you get caught with your pants down, take the loss like a man and learn from it.
To all you Druchii Gentlemen out there: WHY SO MERCIFUL????
The reverse is also true. If you get caught with your pants down, take the loss like a man and learn from it.
To all you Druchii Gentlemen out there: WHY SO MERCIFUL????
Vryala Naïlo - WS5 / S5 / T5 / D5 / I4
Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
Inventory: amulet of Strength, grapple, grenade x0, smoke x11, map, mage hand, sleep oil x8, cure balms x20, Yori's balms x1, winter gear, old kit, lion mask
Mount: Dark Steed (Blanky), barding, talisman of Protection
Gold: 1735
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Anarin Sarath (2), Basic Ride
Class: Warrior
Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
Inventory: amulet of Strength, grapple, grenade x0, smoke x11, map, mage hand, sleep oil x8, cure balms x20, Yori's balms x1, winter gear, old kit, lion mask
Mount: Dark Steed (Blanky), barding, talisman of Protection
Gold: 1735
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Anarin Sarath (2), Basic Ride
Class: Warrior
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Lord tsunami
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Because it is a greater challenge, making victory all the sweeter
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
It's not so much mercy, but taking pleasure in the martial art of killing. The most satisfying victory comes not from bludgeoning your opponent's head with a club, but from using nimble swordplay to dazzle them with skill and deftly slice them into ribbons. As Druchii we should revel in displaying our natural superiority through demonstrations of intricate martial prowess.
To be a Druchii Gentleman is not to be weak and merciful, but rather to adhere to a martial code that binds us into winning through elite style and combat prowess, demonstrated not only in hand to hand combat, but also at operational, tactical and strategic levels. When our opponents are beaten, they know that they have been beaten by the best and must acknowledge our latent supremacy accordingly. Anyone can win, but only a Druchii Gentleman can win with style
Perhaps it is arrogant to fight with one hand behind your back, in the manner that we Druchii Gentlemen do, but then excessive pride and confidence were always Druchii failings
To be a Druchii Gentleman is not to be weak and merciful, but rather to adhere to a martial code that binds us into winning through elite style and combat prowess, demonstrated not only in hand to hand combat, but also at operational, tactical and strategic levels. When our opponents are beaten, they know that they have been beaten by the best and must acknowledge our latent supremacy accordingly. Anyone can win, but only a Druchii Gentleman can win with style
Perhaps it is arrogant to fight with one hand behind your back, in the manner that we Druchii Gentlemen do, but then excessive pride and confidence were always Druchii failings
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
I support tactical discussions about whichever tool is legal in order to win.Dalamar wrote:Winning at all cost mentality is definitely in the author's head.
If you have access to a tool, and the tool helps you win, there is no reason not to use that tool.
I also support the search of clever (and still legal) alternative tools!
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Well, if your goal is only to win, you use every trick in the book you can to do so. If you want to have fun, you experiment, make softer lists, and generally just have more relaxing games. I've been around a more competative setting lately, and then it's all about those victories and developing a list with the idea of wiping your opponent.
I don't use that invincible dreadlord because he is a boring way to deal with problems, and also I don't think he does as much as he costs (With the exception of battles where you meet a unit where you'd really like to bind it up).
I don't use that invincible dreadlord because he is a boring way to deal with problems, and also I don't think he does as much as he costs (With the exception of battles where you meet a unit where you'd really like to bind it up).
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
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Tyrannus deathbringer
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Nice read, thanks to Strollinthewoods for writing it and Calisson for mediating it
On one hand I don't like the Starcraft and Warcraft analogies. Resource harvesting and base growing is a whole different dynamic to a fixed setup of even points army lists.
If I was using an engine to describe the problems with warhammer it would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War_%28series%29. An exceptionally well balanced and realistic game series where real world tactics and strategy actually work in game!
...but I'm not in the mood for looking at the negatives - 8th ed is by far the most balanced and slick edition of warhammer FB I've played so far and I'm quite happy with it
For the positives of the article, the breakdown of MSU strategy and tactics was excellent and I took a lot of pointers from it. A very good article for those interested in win-at-all-costs tournament play.
Gaming aside, I particularly liked this comment:
"The narrow "line of sight" especially on internett forums, in regards to warhammer related stuff is very much a nuiance. People talk over the head of one anohter most of the time, and there is lots of very bastant statements beeing thrown down, that just not make much sense, to other than theselves, and the ones that think like they do. "
D.net would be a more lively forum if consensus opinions were not so well policed
On one hand I don't like the Starcraft and Warcraft analogies. Resource harvesting and base growing is a whole different dynamic to a fixed setup of even points army lists.
If I was using an engine to describe the problems with warhammer it would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War_%28series%29. An exceptionally well balanced and realistic game series where real world tactics and strategy actually work in game!
...but I'm not in the mood for looking at the negatives - 8th ed is by far the most balanced and slick edition of warhammer FB I've played so far and I'm quite happy with it
For the positives of the article, the breakdown of MSU strategy and tactics was excellent and I took a lot of pointers from it. A very good article for those interested in win-at-all-costs tournament play.
Gaming aside, I particularly liked this comment:
"The narrow "line of sight" especially on internett forums, in regards to warhammer related stuff is very much a nuiance. People talk over the head of one anohter most of the time, and there is lots of very bastant statements beeing thrown down, that just not make much sense, to other than theselves, and the ones that think like they do. "
D.net would be a more lively forum if consensus opinions were not so well policed
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."
What I've seen on Warhammer-Empire, many people keep making one line angry comments at anything out of the consensual path.Tyrannus Deathbringer wrote:D.net would be a more lively forum if consensus opinions were not so well policed
In D.net, I miss some tactical discussions that we have seen last year. Nowaday, it's not that consensual opinions are so much policed, it's that there are not many opinions expressed.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Tyrannus deathbringer
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Calisson wrote:Nowaday, it's not that consensual opinions are so much policed, it's that there are not many opinions expressed.
Well, that's not the opinion of D.net I've read about on dark elf blogs and sites elsewhere on the internet. As some members have alluded to on other threads i.e.
Dangerous Beans wrote:
sadly we have a bit of a funky relationship with people's opinions about druchii.net - some consider the site and the guys/girls who write on here to be a bit 'set in our ways' about what works best and trying new things, but hopefully you'll find the opposite!
Calisson wrote:In D.net, I miss some tactical discussions that we have seen last year.
Agreed. I enjoyed lurking here at the dawn of 8th - definitely a creative highpoint of the site. I'm sure things will pick up again when a new army book arrives...
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."
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Sultansean
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I really enjoyed reading strollinthewoods thoughts, I'm not a big fan of the "crafts" but was able to follow his analogies well enough. I purchased a Dark Elf army and among other things was turned off really playing it in 8th edition since the game seemed to be dominated by Hordes, Monsters and Magic. I'm excited to hear of someone having success with an MSU style of play and it has inspired me to get back on the Druchii train and finish my army off.