Executioners vs Black Guard

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:02 pm

I am new to warhammer I haven't bought an army yet. I am going to buy the druchii but I am not sure whether to the the execs or the black guard. Both seem brilliant but the ASL on the execs is a real limiation, I would equip them with an ASF banner but that means attaching a DH to the unit. Is this a clever idea? Or does the DH have to stay with the COB?

Or should I get both?

Which would be the best option?

Sisstros · Post by **Sisstros** » Sun May 06, 2012 7:34 pm

I would argue Executioners work best in a Lore of Metal list.

You will also require a Death Hag to accompany them with the BSB upgrade and ASF banner, I would also recommend the Rune of Khaine so she racks up a lot of kills on her own; as well as another Death Hag with a Cauldron of Blood to make sure the Executioners are stubborn.

The main advantage they have is that with strength 6 and killing blow they require no help with killing things so you can put all of your efforts into keeping them alive. The 5+ ward from the Cauldron and the Glittering Robes spell are ideal for this.

Black Guard on the other hand are always a solid choice in any list. However with only strength 4 they are not going to be able to rack up the same number of kills without a bit of help.

Best of luck.

Vulcan · Post by **Vulcan** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:43 am

Executioners don't need the ASF Death Hag BSB. They just need enough bodies to aborb the enemies' attacks, and still have maximum attacks back. Units of 40 to 50 will do the trick just fine.

Heck, one time I ran a Hydra Banner Death Hag BSB with my Executioners. They still went last... but 30 in horde formation rocked out 50 attacks (obviosuly with Cauldron support) and utterly crushed a big block of Dwarf Hammerers + Lord + BSB in two rounds.

Of course, only 10 Executioners survived the fight, but that is par for course with them.

Executioners are the only unit we have that really REQUIRES a 'go big or go home' mentality. Small units of Executioners just die, because of Strikes Last and T3/5+ save.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:06 am

As I have said in other threads, for reasons mentioned above, it depends on how much your willing to invest in the units points and money wise. Exectioners need a big unit (at least 30, normally with other investments) to be effective. Black Guard cap at 20 and can work pretty well on their own, so obviously require less points investment, and alot cheaper to buy a unit. Therefore, executioners also require you building your list around them (not necassarily a bad thing, because a Witch Elf horde compliments them nicely).

IMO these are the optimum builds for units...

Executioners: 40 w/ FC and Flaming Banner (515), Death Hag w/ BSB, ASF, Rune of Khaine and Manbane (200), Death Hag w/COB (200), Metal Magic complements them the best

Black Guard- 20 w/ FC and Banner of Murder and Crimson Death (345), Shadow Magic compliments them the best

My advice is to get both if you can, (I own just about everything in the DE army so Im able to test everything in the book, which is very useful). If you cannot afford it moneywise (which is fine, it took me years to get my collection :lol:

) try proxying for a few games and decide which unit works best for you.

Cheers

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:17 pm

Buying both would be good, I am aiming to do that once I have built up a big army, but I havent got any units yet so I'm wondering which would be best to start with(money and points wise)?

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:20 pm

Also my main opponents are skaven and HE so which would work best against them?(I don't want to talior my whole army just to fight them though) My HE opponent loves his swordmasters so I think I should get my BG or execs into combat with them. IS that a clever idea?

Tyrannus deathbringer · Mon May 07, 2012 8:03 pm

Against HE and Skaven I'd go for Black Guard due to their higher Initiative, Attacks, Ld, as well as Stubborn and Warrior Elite.

Execs need to be horde to be optimal, and Skaven can swamp you with chaff and hit you hard with warmachines and so on. High Elf Swordmasters and White Lions on the other hand will dice your Execs before you get a chance to strike back, ASF Hag standard or no.

I prefer Executioners against heavily armoured/high toughness lower numbered armies such as WoC, Ogres, Brettonians, etc.

You could always play both but personally Id use the special slots for one or the other + witches + shades + CoK against the match ups you mention.

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Mon May 07, 2012 8:29 pm

outch against our shiny cousins our execs just really suck... at least from my experience! I would recommend going for the BG as they are cheaper money wise and in points. But more importantly it is very hard to play smaller games when you have to include a exec horde because that is the only elite unit you have to play with. Black guard are very veratile and reliable through the always stubborn on a 9. Warrior elite will let them reroll hits all game and with a lttle support they can kill anything! Dont get me wrong, I love my exec horde but if I had to choose which one to start with I would probably go for the BG as it allows more flexibilty in the rest of your list. Especially against skaven and HE the S 4 of the BG will be enough in most circumstances. Another thing is that there is no modell from GW for a death hag bsb, some might see that as an opportunity but I see it as a hinderance... seeing that you didnt buy any models yet your probably not going to be the best sculptor or converter out there.

that my 2 cents

Tyrannus deathbringer · Mon May 07, 2012 9:12 pm

Lokil wrote:seeing that you didnt buy any models yet your probably not going to be the best sculptor or converter out there.

I'm not the best sculptor or converter out there but that doesn't stop me

Plastic sorceress plus any standard arm = cheap and cool Hag BSB

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Tue May 08, 2012 10:19 am

druchii warrior wrote:My HE opponent loves his swordmasters so I think I should get my BG or execs into combat with them. IS that a clever idea?

Nope, that's not a good idea. Swordmasters are just a huge pain in the *** against all of our close combat troops, and I would only send in a huge block of spearmen to absorb the number of hits, and be able to reduce his numbers of swordmasters that way. Pointwise, you might be about equal with them if you manage to stand your ground with steadfast. If you use blackguards or executioners, you will loose them very quickly. The best way to deal with them is our beloved repeater crossbows. Use shades and/or crossbowmen and take them out.... and you can use magic as well as the hydras firebreath (No close combat against them with the hydra though) to deal with the unit swiftly.

I like BG better than Execs... the reason for it, is that I don't like having big expensive units with lots of dependencies. Sure, you can run a big executioners squad on their own. 40 of the is most likely the best number for such, and you end up with a unit costing over 500 pts. When you want to make it more effective, you add the ASF banner for 150 pts, and then the cauldron for 200 pts. So, to use the executioners, you end up with something between 500-850 pts more or less.

With the Black guard, you also get a somewhat expensive unit, about 320 pts with the banner of murder. Now, you won't be able to kill your enemies as effectivly as the executioners, but an initiative of 6 makes them so much better imo. I often end up with matches against Warriors of chaos, and my experience is that it's better to have that 1 extra initiative than having the 2 more strength and killing blow. Especially as you can field a master in that squad instead of the death hag, who can get soulrender/whip of agony/crimson death and add alot more armor killing damage to the fight (I especially like crimson death as it gets AP with the banner on the unit as well).

Before the last tournament I had, I tested some matches with the executioners and some with the BG unit I just mentioned + a unit of 21 witch elves. The first meant that I had less units to use, and it was easier for my friend to halt them for long enough with dogs so that his hellcannon could get one shot into them and lower their numbers considerably. The latter gave me alot more to the list than one big unit, so any blocking for one round didn't have as much impact. I won 20 - 0 (ETC rules) over one of my WoC friends in an internal tournament at my local club, using the BG unit and metal lore. Of course, it was kinda ironic I went with dark magic lore and met him in a big tournament later and he 20-0'ed me because I couldn't get through his knights as he rolled like a hero (And I blew up my sorceress on the first spell I cast with 3 dices).

Anyways, I think that both are options to consider, but I fall on the BG's for those mentioned reasons, as well as the miniatures looks so incredible cool :lol:

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Tue May 08, 2012 4:21 pm

I reckon that starting with the BG would be the best option. Both sound brilliant and I willl probably get them both in the future. Thanks for the help!

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Wed May 09, 2012 5:47 am

i guess it all has been said already, but ill say it too

executioners are very good in hordes of at least 30, and preferably with a hag BSB with the ASF banner. against HE things change a bit, and it would be better to have more warm bodies than that BSB, but in small unit executioners weakness is very VERY hard to make up for.

BG are pretty much always good. usually ppl use a unit of 20 (since that is their max size) with banner of murder and possibly crimson death for the champ. i personally use a unit of 14 with musician and that has served me very well too. BG are pretty much always good against pretty much anything. if you know that you are facing HE you can give them ASF to turn the table on him

ps. swordmasters should not be fought, but shot

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Wed May 09, 2012 2:30 pm

The execs sound brilliant but as you guys have said you need at least 30 and since I'm just starting out the BG just seem like a better option.

Is it a good idea to put a dreadlord(my general) with the BG?

Lord tsunami · Post by **Lord tsunami** » Thu May 10, 2012 5:41 am

nope. combat characters are simply too expensive for what they do. you might want to take a dreadlord (though it is far from mandatory) but if you do you should take him for his utility. usually that would be his Ld10 and (if you are a coward;)) his ability to become pretty much immortal as well as stubborn to be able to stall any unit in the warhammer world for a whole game (pretty much).

taking a dreadlord and putting him in a unit of BG limits his mobility, so the Ld bubble will not be very effective, and his added punch simply isnt worth the cost.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Thu May 10, 2012 7:16 am

Ill echo what Tsunami said. Its far more economical to invest character points into mages and the COB than it is to invest in combat characters in units. They don't provide enough kills for their points, and their LD bonus can be made up through other characters.

There are a couple of exceptions however. A dread lord with the Executioners axe is a good idea in Black Guard if they have the ASF banner.

Also, you do need a BSB, so if you havnt got a COB BSB or one in a unit of Knights, the Black Guard could be a good spot to sit him in. However, Masters don't hit too hard, because you'll be spending a lot of points to keep him alive (easier when mounted because of the improved armour save), and therefore he will only get 3 attacks, which lose hatred after the first round of combat, so his input can be quite underwhelming.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Thu May 10, 2012 8:08 am

I wouldn't say that combat characters shouldn't be taken, nor that they shouldn't be put in units. The BG's would be a unit a lord could be put. The reason to have characters in combat units would be:

1) Alot of my opponents go with such things and uses knights alot. I need something to handle those things within a unit. As our units also lack alot of punch when it comes to strength, a dreadlord or master is the perfect choice.

2) When using death lore with one or two sorceresses, the LD of 10 from the lord is kinda sweet.

3) The troops gives you the needed protection against shooting... at least when you have the same base, which means that you don't absolutely need to pump up to maximum defenses (Like Cloak of Hag Graef).

I like to go with masters which has pendant, soulrender and is on a cold one with spear elves/corsairs and so on. With the BG, I've gone with armor of darkness and crimson death as well as armor of darkness and dawnstone (And a great weapon with that). In the newest list, I decided I wanted to try the executioners axe, and as Demetrius says, the BG with ASF banner is the way to go then.

I too enjoy the pegasus masters and lords, however they are kinda expensive compared to what they manage to do against some things... and that's where the master/lord within a big troop is better.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu May 10, 2012 12:46 pm

A character with the ring of darkness can be a godsend for the Black Guard if you are up against a lot of missile troops.

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Thu May 10, 2012 3:53 pm

Well I would need a general and the dreadlord seems like the best option. I would prefer to keep him in a unit for protection and he would add a lot more punch to the unit. The BG would be the best option.

Yeasir · Post by **Yeasir** » Fri May 11, 2012 2:22 am

Lord Tsunami wrote:ps. swordmasters should not be fought, but shot

Yeah don't let the HE match-up determine your choice between the two. I have never fealt dominated in combat with my hoarded ASF Execs except for against Swordmasters. They are simply better than any of our infantry head to head.

My strategy against HEs is Hydras and dark magic. A strength 5 breath weapon down the flank of a hoarded unit of swordmasters feels soo good!

And our 11+ to cast Black Horror means half of any swordmasters under the template on avergage are gonners.

In general, whereas I occassionally take BG, I never leave home without my executioners. I do think they should ALWAYS have the ASF BSB though. I would rather my enemy not be able to strike back then to waste the points "absorbing blows". 40 strength six attacks (via CoB) with Eternal Hatred and killing blow arguably makes them the best infantry in the game!

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Fri May 11, 2012 6:20 pm

Would you take dark magic against HE? Which lore would be best against Skaven?

Taijushue · Post by **Taijushue** » Fri May 11, 2012 6:36 pm

haven't played against skaven but i would think fire would do well against them, with the d3/d6 if horde str 4 hits per rank could kill a lot from the massive rat units.

I could see dark doing well too. other than not having flaming attacks to get rid of the hpb regen

Nocturnal · Post by **Nocturnal** » Thu May 17, 2012 3:34 pm

I think I will just play test.

Clockwork · Post by **Clockwork** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:15 pm

Yeasir wrote:
Lord Tsunami wrote:In general, whereas I occassionally take BG, I never leave home without my executioners. I do think they should ALWAYS have the ASF BSB though. I would rather my enemy not be able to strike back then to waste the points "absorbing blows". 40 strength six attacks (via CoB) with Eternal Hatred and killing blow arguably makes them the best infantry in the game!

Interestingly, I crunched the numbers on this a while ago - and even without ASF and striking last, 30 Executioners will still rule so long as they are getting the Cauldron +1 attack or 5+ ward depending on opponent. Admittedly I was matching them against units of 24 Chaos Warriors (Khorne + halberd, Khorne + AHW, Tzeentch + Shield were the three combinations I used), but the Executioners almost always win, or otherwise draw and ensure MAD with their opponent.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:39 pm

you're absolutely right Clockwork. However, the challenge is that after one difficult fight the ASL executioners have taken a lot of damage and so may not do so well in their subsequent combats, whereas the striking in initiative order executioners may well have come away almost entirely unscatched, allowing them to fight close combat after close combat without any real reduction in their fighting potential.

Clockwork · Post by **Clockwork** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:41 pm

True that. However, when I compare to Chaos Warriors, its on the assumption that they aren't going to have many units to chew through - once one is down, their army is looking weak.

Not so useful against other armies, of course.