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So in my current (everchanging) list I have 2, 5 man units of Dark Riders with RxB as well as 2, 5 man units of Shades with AHW. Now my question would it be worth it to drop the Dark Riders all together and take 4 units of Shades and save a couple points to put elsewhere since the can effectively serve the same purpose cant they?

Also random question. If you take a CoB does your BSB Hag HAVE to be included in the CoB or can she join a unit leaving 2 W on the CoB? (does that make sense?)

I think versatility is good so I'd keep the Dark Riders. If for no other reason they help fill out your core requirements.

Crew can not leave a War Machine.

To follow what was mentioned above, I'd also keep the dark riders. As with AHW, the shades are filling a different role; actually a similar role with differing tactics.

If you take a CoB does your BSB Hag HAVE to be included in the CoB or can she join a unit leaving 2 W on the CoB? (does that make sense?)

AFAIK she has to stay with the Cauldron throughout the entire game, as the model now counts as a warmachine.

She stays with the CoB. The new rules for Warmachines should clarify that.

Trade a unit of DR for two units of 5 Harpies.

Either go one unit of DR or three units.

One unit means you're using DR for disruption purposes rather than offensive purposes.

Three units means you're using them more offensively. Shutting down enemy's free 12" move before game starts (forgot what it's called sorry) and ganking one unit at a time with 30 RxB shots every turn. That's about maybe 3-5 dead models depending on how tough and how much armour they have? It's enough to remove a rank and that's one less CR for them once CC starts. They can still perform the classical disruption moves too, just more to use for it.

Sitting in the middle doesn't accomplish much because there's not enough of them to work together to gank a unit, and you only really need one unit to disrupt enemy movement. The extra one will end up just sitting there because you shouldn't really be fighting two fronts at once as DE.

isnt there a rule to say you cannot take more then 2 of the same rare choice at below 3000 pts.

you can take as many rare choices as you want as long as its less that 25% of your army cost I believe. But either way Shades are special and DR are core.

Berzullha wrote:you can take as many rare choices as you want as long as its less that 25% of your army cost I believe. But either way Shades are special and DR are core.

You can only take 2 duplicates of rare, and 3 duplicates of special, below 3000 points. Not that you would need 3 hydras in a >3k game

Berzullha wrote:I have 2, 5 man units of Dark Riders with RxB as well as 2, 5 man units of Shades with AHW. Now my question would it be worth it to drop the Dark Riders all together and take 4 units of Shades and save a couple points to put elsewhere since the can effectively serve the same purpose cant they?

The additional Shade units are not as effective as the first ones.
They will have hard times to find en empty spot where to start their scouting duties.
They will not fill up a new role, but add redundancy.

And yes, you're limited to 3 Shade units below 3k.

Shades, Dark Riders, and Harpies all have related but different specialties under the role of 'maneuver control'. Under certain cicumstances, they even switch specialties.

Shades are your premier warmachine/small unit killers. Between BS 5 RXBs and two WS 5 attacks each, they can tear through an army's backfield in a couple of turns in the right circumstances. At highter point levels, though, it becomes much harder to find that backfield position for them to do it. At that point, they switch roles with harpies.

Dark Riders are ideal for the infamous 'bait and flee'. Sure, harpies and shades can do it, but only Dark Riders can move and shoot on the rally turn. This makes them ideal for the role. They can also warmachine hunt, 12" Vanguard + 18" march + 24" shoot means little will be out of their range on the first turn, starting on the second turn they can rip across the enemy backfield like the Shades... assuming there is a 3" gap in the enemy line somewhere. At high point levels, that can be hard to find.

Harpies are your disposable road blocks and speed bumps. They move up, provide cover to units behind them (I love when Empire players waste Hellblaster volleys at them) and make the enemy charge them or not move... at which point I can flee to bring them out of place. I can also take much greater risks with them because if they fail to rally or get caught... who cares? At higher point levels, though, it becomes impossible to get my normal warmachine hunters into the enemy backfield. So at this point, the harpies take over the role, since they can fly over the enemy. If he keeps his combat blocks back to deny the harpies space to land and attack, that means my combat blocks have free reign to maneuver against his combat blocks. In this instance, Shades get used as disposable road blocks - sometimes even being used to screen harpies on their way to the warmachines!

Of special note is the Dark Pegasus Master. He does much the same job as the Dark Riders, with the added advantage of Flying. He's also the priciest option, at 130 points for a naked Master on a Peggy; with normal gear he will run around 150 points, with magic as high as 200. But he adds a level of durability to the role that the other three options lack.

I've also used small units of specials (10 Witches or 5-7 Black Guard, with musicians) in the role of tirestrip. It works similar to the speed bump harpies... but they shred the tires of whatever runs them over.

In short, we have the tools to dominate the maneuver battle. Use them to dictate the engagements, and you can domintate the close combat battle as well!

Darn double post!

Vulcan wrote:Shades, Dark Riders, and Harpies all have related but different specialties under the role of 'maneuver control'. Under certain cicumstances, they even switch specialties.

Shades are your premier warmachine/small unit killers. Between BS 5 RXBs and two WS 5 attacks each, they can tear through an army's backfield in a couple of turns in the right circumstances. At highter point levels, though, it becomes much harder to find that backfield position for them to do it. At that point, they switch roles with harpies.

Dark Riders are ideal for the infamous 'bait and flee'. Sure, harpies and shades can do it, but only Dark Riders can move and shoot on the rally turn. This makes them ideal for the role. They can also warmachine hunt, 12" Vanguard + 18" march + 24" shoot means little will be out of their range on the first turn, starting on the second turn they can rip across the enemy backfield like the Shades... assuming there is a 3" gap in the enemy line somewhere. At high point levels, that can be hard to find.

Harpies are your disposable road blocks and speed bumps. They move up, provide cover to units behind them (I love when Empire players waste Hellblaster volleys at them) and make the enemy charge them or not move... at which point I can flee to bring them out of place. I can also take much greater risks with them because if they fail to rally or get caught... who cares? At higher point levels, though, it becomes impossible to get my normal warmachine hunters into the enemy backfield. So at this point, the harpies take over the role, since they can fly over the enemy. If he keeps his combat blocks back to deny the harpies space to land and attack, that means my combat blocks have free reign to maneuver against his combat blocks. In this instance, Shades get used as disposable road blocks - sometimes even being used to screen harpies on their way to the warmachines!

Of special note is the Dark Pegasus Master. He does much the same job as the Dark Riders, with the added advantage of Flying. He's also the priciest option, at 130 points for a naked Master on a Peggy; with normal gear he will run around 150 points, with magic as high as 200. But he adds a level of durability to the role that the other three options lack.

I've also used small units of specials (10 Witches or 5-7 Black Guard, with musicians) in the role of tirestrip. It works similar to the speed bump harpies... but they shred the tires of whatever runs them over.

In short, we have the tools to dominate the maneuver battle. Use them to dictate the engagements, and you can domintate the close combat battle as well!

Great post Vulcan

He's also the priciest option, at 130 points for a naked Master on a Peggy

Few things scarier than a nude angry dark elf on a flying horse who has had all of his clothes stolen...

^

Also, what Carlisson has mentioned about redundancy is very true. You want enough units of a particular option to fill out their jobs/roles. Kind of what I was getting at with my post, just worded bad or went off topic.

Spamming more of the same unit when there's enough to do a job, doesn't really add more effectiveness. There's only so much room on the field to do any one thing, overcrowding it might get you into more trouble. Like, spamming more Shades certainly would make them more effective at their jobs, but it becomes mitigated, you're not getting the full effectiveness out for the points paid for further units.

You'll know whether you need more or less DR/Shades once you've played a few games. Once you start wishing you had another "__________" unit there, or if only you had one here, then you know you'll need more for your playstyle