I recently designed an army list and played a match vs Warriors of Chaos.
Army list design and battle report can be found HERE
For easy reference. Here are my list and after battle thoughts on CoK vs Execs vs WoC.
Army List
Dreadlord, General, Black Dragon, Soulrender, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone, Armour of Darkness - 540 Pts.
Master, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, CO, BSB, Hydra banner - 214 Pts.
Sorceress, lvl2, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Scroll, Lore of Metal - 185 Pts.
Master, GW, HA, SDC, Dark Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dragonhelm - 187 Pts.
15 Crossbowmen, M, C - 160 Pts.
20 Crossbowmen, M, C - 210 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
5 Dark Riders - 85 Pts.
10 Dark Elf Warriors - 60 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
14 CO Knights, M, S, C, Std. of Murder - 443 Pts.
War Hydra - 175 Pts.
On splitting the RXBs
I agree that splitting the RXBs into more units was the right thing to do. The guiding Eye is a gimicky item forcing you into a gimicky build, and i have never really managed to actually play a game with it.
The large block could have been interesting to try, but would have made a solid target in the middle of my lines for him to charge and get a lot of points of.
When splitting the units, he had difficulties taking large chunks of points from me. And that was a really good thing in this game.
So my conclusion is that when facing a few number of large units, its better to split your RXBs into smaller chunks as it will take longer for him to get their points worth. This may not hold true when facing an different army equipped to handle MSU. You need to have a solution for panic checks though. That was one of the main reasons why the DL was kept in the center in the start/middle of the game.
On choosing CoK over Execs
This was a really difficult choice.
The 2 units would deal comparable str6 AP damage.
Executioners
One of the Exectioners main selling points for me, was that they would deal a lot of damage regardless of getting a charge or not. Thus being superior in a defense scenario, where i could use them as a wall to stop his advance. They also have KB which would be a huge boon in a matchup vs a Character heavy chaos knight bus. The KB execs would make it a very difficult choice for him to engange and or move forward, making such a matchup very favorable for me.
However they only have I5 which is similar to his Chaos Knights and Warriors. This meant that i would be taking huge casualties while massacring one of his key units. And i could not depend on my Execs taking out more than 1 of the opposing key units or perhaps 2 depleted ones.
In order for the Execs to shine in a match vs Chaos, i feel that i need to support them with either a Cauldron (for the 5++ ward) or magic to make them more durable. I could not include a CoB due to lack of Hero allowance, and i did not have the magic to support them.
Cold One Knights
The Knights main selling point for me, was their mobility and that i would be able to switch gears in the middle of the match going from defense (the first couple of turns) to offense (with the dragonlord and PegasusHero).
Vs str4 attacks they would also be more resilient than the executioners, vs str5 approximately equally durable and more vulnerable vs str6+ (usually only found on characters.) I know i had the tools (Dragonlord + Peg hero) to focus on his characters and take them out of the equation.
The knights have I6 making them strike first against his elite Chaos Knights and Warriors (barring magic interference) and that was a HUGE selling point for me.
This meant that the knights could charge a WoC unit and expect to deal a lot of damage before being hit back. Against an elite force with few bodies, that could potentially meant that i would wipe out or cripple the enemy unit before they even got to attack. Making the CoKs much more durable (if i made sure i got the charge).
With the Cold One Knights I could destroy or cripple multiple enemy units without much loss to my own units IF i made sure to get the charge and not let my enemy countercharge me. Thats why you see me move 3 redicting units up close to the CoKs to support them and make sure they get their charges.
Deciding factor
In the end the I6 vs I5 made all the difference to me, and i would make the same choice any day vs I5 armies.
However i do believe that against a character heavy WoC-bus the Execs would have been superior. But in all other matchups i would favor the CoKs. Against a character bus, i would still have lots of solid opportunities to win with the CoKs.
Magic setup and handling enemy redirectors
Having contemplated a dual lv1/2 setup, and settling for a single lv2 with Scroll and ring of fury was a fair tradeoff i think.
My opponent fielded 2xlv2 vs my single lv2 and we both got approximately the same out of our magic phases.
With my spell selection i decided to go for searing doom and gehennas golden hounds giving me 2 excellent nukes vs armor. In hindsight i should have chosen final transmutation for a much bigger threat.
I had a discussion with one of the best players here in denmark regarding magic setup, and he let me know that after many many tests he has found that for most purposes a single lv2 (fire) with ruby ring of fury gives the same options as 2lv2, but for a much lower price. And after this match i have to agree with him.
a 2xlv2 setup is only necessary if you have to get a specific spell (for instance pit of shades).
The ruby ring was included to take out enemy redirecters, but since he did not field any, it never really saw any use. But given the discussion above and the choice of knights over execs it was extremely important that i was able to take care of any redirecters he might bring. So in hindsight i would probably switch the lore from metal to fire should i play the match again. Hmm i not sure. Its a toss up.
Discussion
It could be very interesting to hear from someone favoring the Executiones in a matchup vs Warriors of Chaos.
Have i got it right or did i miss essential points?
I would be happy to have any feedback.[/url]
Executioners or Cold One Knights vs Warriors of Chaos
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
I agree to your points about Executioners against Warriors of Chaos. The only time I'd really think they would be worth it against them, is against a big knight unit.
In the ETC environment, you can't run them up to 40 Executioners, so you can't get those extra numbers needed for such a unit on its own. This means you depend on 30 of them, and more or less need the ASF banner so that they can strike with their initiative. However, as the warriors will have the same initiative, you will loose a lot of executioners in close combat, and if you meet a frenzied khorne unit, you will most likely loose all your executioners even though you will cut down all of them. Even worse, you might meet lots of marauders or have dogs blocking and redirecting the unit so that your big expensive unit can't do the necessary damage in the battle.
The other problem is that the tzeentch lore will smash your executioners down to a more easily handled size with the betrayal spell (don't remember the name, but you hit yourself once), as well as gateway.
The CoKs is a better option imo, but you are still quite dependent on charge, and should have a CoB with them too for that extra attack.
Some questions about your list against WoC:
Would you run the dark riders against them again?
Would more spear elves be a better idea?
Where are your Witch Elves?!! :p
In the ETC environment, you can't run them up to 40 Executioners, so you can't get those extra numbers needed for such a unit on its own. This means you depend on 30 of them, and more or less need the ASF banner so that they can strike with their initiative. However, as the warriors will have the same initiative, you will loose a lot of executioners in close combat, and if you meet a frenzied khorne unit, you will most likely loose all your executioners even though you will cut down all of them. Even worse, you might meet lots of marauders or have dogs blocking and redirecting the unit so that your big expensive unit can't do the necessary damage in the battle.
The other problem is that the tzeentch lore will smash your executioners down to a more easily handled size with the betrayal spell (don't remember the name, but you hit yourself once), as well as gateway.
The CoKs is a better option imo, but you are still quite dependent on charge, and should have a CoB with them too for that extra attack.
Some questions about your list against WoC:
Would you run the dark riders against them again?
Would more spear elves be a better idea?
Where are your Witch Elves?!! :p
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Hello Omnichron.
Thx for the feedback. It seems we largely agree.
Yes you are right Treason of Tzeentch is very strong vs an Exe horde killing a bit below 50% on one casting, where they only kill 20% of a knight unit.
I forget to mention it, but that was also one of the reason why i went for the Cold One Knights vs Warriors of Chaos.
In the ETC you can have 37 Exes max. Almost enough to do damage, but with the ASF Death Hag, the entire unit becomes liable to frenzy and must pursue due the frenzy hag. And that is imo also a big problem.
I very seldom field Frenzied units as i find them very easy to deal with on the receiving end. They are so easy to pull out of position and vs a skilled opponent with redirecters can be a great liability.
If you do field frenzied troops, its imo extremely important to take all the precautions you can so they wont get redirected.
The reason the DRs and the small unit of 10 warriors were included, was because i needed enough redirecters. And i could not find pts for more than a single harpy unit. So i had to stack up on DRs instead, or i couldnt make sure that the Knights would get the charge that they need.
But if i had the pts for it in a different army setup i would much rather switch them with harpy units. Alas i did not have the luxury.
Lately i have actually found myself using a single DR unit. At the start of eigth edition i put my DRs on the shelf collecting dust. But latelly i have been using a single unit as a redirecter and character assasination tool. 5 DRs on the charge blessed with +1A from the CoB is pretty effective. They also take up core allowance as opposed to harpies as mentioned previously.
Generally i find our Spearmen an excellent buy. Actually i find them one of our best buys in the army list because of their price.
A normal core setup for me would often be:
2x35 spears full command
1x20 spears with +1Ld as bunker.
I find that setup very hardcore!
In this list vs WoC i felt that the core setup i presented would best support the CoKnights as i needed a solid answer to redirecters and had nowhere else to turn.
I love witch elves. I only have one problem with them. Frenzy and must pursue. But they are definately murder when in CC.
In some low armor matchups (for instance ogres and BoC) they wreck havoc. But when i field them, i always have the fear that i will not be able to stop a skilled opponent redirecting them into a trap.
How do you find Witch elves? How do you get past their frenzy?
Thx for the feedback. It seems we largely agree.
Yes you are right Treason of Tzeentch is very strong vs an Exe horde killing a bit below 50% on one casting, where they only kill 20% of a knight unit.
I forget to mention it, but that was also one of the reason why i went for the Cold One Knights vs Warriors of Chaos.
In the ETC you can have 37 Exes max. Almost enough to do damage, but with the ASF Death Hag, the entire unit becomes liable to frenzy and must pursue due the frenzy hag. And that is imo also a big problem.
I very seldom field Frenzied units as i find them very easy to deal with on the receiving end. They are so easy to pull out of position and vs a skilled opponent with redirecters can be a great liability.
If you do field frenzied troops, its imo extremely important to take all the precautions you can so they wont get redirected.
The reason the DRs and the small unit of 10 warriors were included, was because i needed enough redirecters. And i could not find pts for more than a single harpy unit. So i had to stack up on DRs instead, or i couldnt make sure that the Knights would get the charge that they need.
But if i had the pts for it in a different army setup i would much rather switch them with harpy units. Alas i did not have the luxury.
Lately i have actually found myself using a single DR unit. At the start of eigth edition i put my DRs on the shelf collecting dust. But latelly i have been using a single unit as a redirecter and character assasination tool. 5 DRs on the charge blessed with +1A from the CoB is pretty effective. They also take up core allowance as opposed to harpies as mentioned previously.
Generally i find our Spearmen an excellent buy. Actually i find them one of our best buys in the army list because of their price.
A normal core setup for me would often be:
2x35 spears full command
1x20 spears with +1Ld as bunker.
I find that setup very hardcore!
In this list vs WoC i felt that the core setup i presented would best support the CoKnights as i needed a solid answer to redirecters and had nowhere else to turn.
I love witch elves. I only have one problem with them. Frenzy and must pursue. But they are definately murder when in CC.
In some low armor matchups (for instance ogres and BoC) they wreck havoc. But when i field them, i always have the fear that i will not be able to stop a skilled opponent redirecting them into a trap.
How do you find Witch elves? How do you get past their frenzy?
The use of DRs as redirectors explains a lot yes. I haven't used the DR's like that myself as I've felt that one or two harpy units with a couple of small shade units gives me what I need to be agile and use block/redirect tactics. Of course, there are times I find myself with too little points in core, so the DR's would be nice in those few cases.
I guess that the number one reason for why I'm not using the executioners, is that it's such a slim chance you will get them in position to do the right amount of damage compared to the cost. They are GREAT against cavalry, but would a good opponent ever throw their cavalry against such a unit? No, he will use cheap sacrifice/shooting/magic and kill the big unit before you get to use it.
The frenzy isn't something you can get past, but with some good movements and the use of crossbowmen/shades/magic, you can take out some of those blockers which halts you for one round (or two if he has several blockers).
I've played against several good opponents in the past, and it's quite rare that the witch elves gets blocked or redirected so far out that they can't do much. I'd say that 90% of my battles, the witch elves get to do a LOT of damage. Those times they are blocked (like in my last tournament where the beastmen had 2 harpy units), I just halt my advances and charges with the rest of my army, and get into position instead. Shooting down those blockers with a unit of crossbowmen and/or sorceress with lifetaker & magic, you can do the charges the next round.
I guess it's about positions, and having the witch elves close to the rest of your army so that you can support the witches when needed. Of course, some armies will make your witch elves die quickly (Wood elves especially), but then you just make sure that the rest of your army kills whatever he has while the witch elves dies.
I also never have more than 250 pts of the witch elves, so I am never that dependent on that unit alone. If they get redirected, I still have most of my army in the game (which won't get blocked or redirected). I guess that is also one of the reasons the witch elves do so well. I got so many other dangerous things in my list, that it doesn't matter if one element is taken out.
Last of all, in my three big tournaments I've been in, the Witch Elves has been the best unit for me. I think it's only 2 out of 15 battles that they haven't performed well.
I guess that the number one reason for why I'm not using the executioners, is that it's such a slim chance you will get them in position to do the right amount of damage compared to the cost. They are GREAT against cavalry, but would a good opponent ever throw their cavalry against such a unit? No, he will use cheap sacrifice/shooting/magic and kill the big unit before you get to use it.
Scyloc wrote:How do you find Witch elves? How do you get past their frenzy?
The frenzy isn't something you can get past, but with some good movements and the use of crossbowmen/shades/magic, you can take out some of those blockers which halts you for one round (or two if he has several blockers).
I've played against several good opponents in the past, and it's quite rare that the witch elves gets blocked or redirected so far out that they can't do much. I'd say that 90% of my battles, the witch elves get to do a LOT of damage. Those times they are blocked (like in my last tournament where the beastmen had 2 harpy units), I just halt my advances and charges with the rest of my army, and get into position instead. Shooting down those blockers with a unit of crossbowmen and/or sorceress with lifetaker & magic, you can do the charges the next round.
I guess it's about positions, and having the witch elves close to the rest of your army so that you can support the witches when needed. Of course, some armies will make your witch elves die quickly (Wood elves especially), but then you just make sure that the rest of your army kills whatever he has while the witch elves dies.
I also never have more than 250 pts of the witch elves, so I am never that dependent on that unit alone. If they get redirected, I still have most of my army in the game (which won't get blocked or redirected). I guess that is also one of the reasons the witch elves do so well. I got so many other dangerous things in my list, that it doesn't matter if one element is taken out.
Last of all, in my three big tournaments I've been in, the Witch Elves has been the best unit for me. I think it's only 2 out of 15 battles that they haven't performed well.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
The challenge of CoKs vs WoC is that if you don't get the charge, you are going to struggle (e.g. against his Knights, S4 vs T4 and a 1+ armour save isn't going to go very far). Similarly, if you do get the charge off but fluff your attacks (hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s and facing a 5+ armour save can lead to less carnage than you might expect if you get low rolls, even with hatred), you are in trouble during the second round of combat.
That said, the higher I does pay huge dividends as it allows them to strike first, whereas the Execs will take a lot of damage while simultaneously dishing it out. Treason of Tzeentch is another good reason to consider not taking them.
To offset the risks for CoKs, might I suggest you consider taking the Whip of Agony or Crimson Death on the CoK champ? That gives you a nasty S5 with AP or S6 guaranteed every turn of combat, even if you don't charge or if you get bogged down into a multiround combat.
The other slight risk with the CoKs is if he decides to take lore of metal. I doubt he would - most WoCs give their caster a Chaos Mark and so have to take that lore accordingly, but it's something to watch out for. CoKs do not like magic missiles that kill on a 2+ with no saves allowed.
That said, the higher I does pay huge dividends as it allows them to strike first, whereas the Execs will take a lot of damage while simultaneously dishing it out. Treason of Tzeentch is another good reason to consider not taking them.
To offset the risks for CoKs, might I suggest you consider taking the Whip of Agony or Crimson Death on the CoK champ? That gives you a nasty S5 with AP or S6 guaranteed every turn of combat, even if you don't charge or if you get bogged down into a multiround combat.
The other slight risk with the CoKs is if he decides to take lore of metal. I doubt he would - most WoCs give their caster a Chaos Mark and so have to take that lore accordingly, but it's something to watch out for. CoKs do not like magic missiles that kill on a 2+ with no saves allowed.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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Tyrannus deathbringer
- Noble
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm
- Location: The Black Ark Nemesis
Both
I like the tag team of Dark Riders plus Cold One Knights against Chaos. As Chaos Knights are more expensive it is rare to see 1 v 1 CoK to ChKn, and with harpies and/or dark riders redirecting the charge odds are usually in our favour.
I also like the ASF Hag Execs vs Chaos; they really are our best option in h-t-h against Warrior Star and Chosen Star type units.
In smaller games I go with CoK, in larger games both CoK and Execs
I also like the ASF Hag Execs vs Chaos; they really are our best option in h-t-h against Warrior Star and Chosen Star type units.
In smaller games I go with CoK, in larger games both CoK and Execs
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."
Re: Both
Tyrannus Deathbringer wrote:I also like the ASF Hag Execs vs Chaos; they really are our best option in h-t-h against Warrior Star and Chosen Star type units.
I agree on those Stars, where they have leaders and tons of warriors in the unit... Executioners is good to deal a lot of damage to those.
However, if you look at the numbers, a horde of witch elves and a horde of executioners, both with +1 attack from CoB, will do about the same amount of wounds the first round (25 if my calculations was correct). Of course, the Warriors of Chaos won't manage to save as much against the executioners, especially not if they are with shields, but as the witch elves have higher initiative, if the unit of chaos isn't huge, he won't get as many attacks back at the witches either. Also, as the witch elf unit is considerably cheaper to get it to work, even with Banner of Murder, I'd still favor them straight up against most chaos warriors blocks...
The knights however is a big problem where executioners is much better... unless I have the mindrazor at hand
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
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Tyrannus deathbringer
- Noble
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm
- Location: The Black Ark Nemesis
Good point, Omnichron.
I am biased towards the can-opener potential of Execs, but of course they die vs Halberd Warriors almost as easily as the cheaper, higher initiative witches!
I am biased towards the can-opener potential of Execs, but of course they die vs Halberd Warriors almost as easily as the cheaper, higher initiative witches!
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."
I'm a big fan of Cold One Knights in 8th edition (usually playing 10). They almost always worked well for me.
You are missing the Whip of Agony on your COK Champ. It is sooo good (even better with the Standard of Hag Graef, but then I agree, that BoM makes sense against WoC), esp. when you happen to get charged, or get stuck in combat for an extra round or two, it really makes a difference. And with the 2+ armour save, the champion can also survive some hits, if he gets attacked.
Bye
Thanee
You are missing the Whip of Agony on your COK Champ. It is sooo good (even better with the Standard of Hag Graef, but then I agree, that BoM makes sense against WoC), esp. when you happen to get charged, or get stuck in combat for an extra round or two, it really makes a difference. And with the 2+ armour save, the champion can also survive some hits, if he gets attacked.
Bye
Thanee