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Dark riders can do it better !!! supplement on page 2 
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Corsair
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@ xFallenx
All rules are p.20 and 22.
In the diagram shown for case 4.1.,
you have, from left to right:
DR1, "A", "B", "C"
and in front of A, B and C, you have DR2

xFallenx wrote:
Can you explain how # 4 works? If I was the General of the opposing army, ie controlled the three units, I would charge with the unit pinned between the two unit of DR. If you held, or chose to flee, I would just move the remaining two normally once you stack your DR to take the charge. I absolutely don’t see how the southernmost unit of DR is going to affect much more that the march movement of the center unit as the charged unit is rubberbanded into combat with the westernmost unit. If you flee, then both of the units would be able to march normally. What am I missing, please use BRB pg numbers for reference on which rules come into play here.
Suppose "A" charges. DR2 maintains.
A has some constraints and some freedoms about charge movement, which is to move forwards, make 1 wheel, move forwards, and the end result must maximize models in contact (p.20) and must allow to close the door if possible (p.22).
Here, no matter the distances and the angle he selects, there will be only 1 DR in contact, so maximisations results in 1.

You question is why DR2 don't have to close the door? It is because there is a possible way for A to charge and to close the door. Therefore A must use that way (see p.22).

As a result, A will have closed the gap by itself, and will be in contact with 1 single DR (which allows to kill them all, still).

With this situation, B and C remain blocked, the best they can do is to charge the DR themselves.



Overall, the argument is that if there is a way that A can charge and close the door, A must take it.
Only if there existed no possiblility to close the door with charging unit, (including taking a different path for the charge), then DR2 would have to close the door.

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Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:46 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Dang Calisson, I just made pictures to diagram it and you beat me to it with clear well put words. but just so i dont feel like i wasted my time i am going to post them anyways.

step 1-
Image

Step 2-
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Step 3-
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Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:00 pm
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@ Calisson: Ok, the explanation as to how that works now makes sense.
@ Tai: the visual was also very helpful, thank-You.
I’m going to re-read the rules on pg’s 20 & 22. Nasty rule really.

So if I had control of A,B,C and decided to charge the DR with all three, the charge reaction of the DR would switch from hold to flee as there is no more reason to stand & fight. Is that right?


Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:08 pm
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Calisson and Taijushue thanks, Spot on.

If all 3 charge the reaction is usually hold. But may depend on situation. A flee response will give your opponent the opportunity to redirect. With a pursuit move, your at a disadvantage (you flee best 2 out of 3d6, while your opponent gets movement 4/5" + 2d6), or can force you to flee multiple times, taking the initiative away form you.

You may think what's the point in that if he still gets an overrun.
Well this is true, but his battle line broken, a unit will be pulled out of place, or if he preforms multiple charges and overruns one roll be it high or low, will put a unit out of place. So if you have troops behind the DR and your opponent manages to reach them, the important thing to remember is the combat will take place after your charge and magic phases :roll:, allowing you to counter charge, and buff/hex the combat to your favor. If he doesn't, you now have the initiative, choose the weakest point (unit) and smash it. Braking his lines.

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Last edited by Killerk on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:30 pm
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It would depend. If i had another unit within charge range of A,B, or C I would still hold with the riders, but if there would be no options for ABC to redirect into i would flee


Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:30 pm
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I think they can fill a very important role if you're up against armies like WoC or Beastmen, but when up against e.g. other Elves, then you probably will find the DR's dead before they get to do much.

Lets assume two otherwise identical DE armies, one with DRs, one with Shades:
1) Shade player will have +1 bonus to go first, but the DR player really needs to start in order to do Vanguard + 18" and get the DR out of sight to avoid being shot down instantly.
2) Shades can be deployed to block the enemy DR vanguard. As mentioned, you can use your own Shades to mitigate the problem, but you can only do it if you get to deploy your scouts first (so 50-50%), and then you have to be really careful not to expose your Shades to first-turn fire instead.
3) Dark Riders (without Crossbows) needs to be up close to do their thing. Shades can stay 24" away and still be useful, which means that DR will be shot at close range, while Shades get a -1 to-hit penalty for ranged compared to DR in addition to Skirmishers and maybe hiding in terrain. This -2 to -3 to-hit difference is the main deal-breaker for me.


Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:49 am
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I agree with Setomidor about the shades being a better option, however the DRs are core and if you want your army to be made mostly of special choices, the DRs are good to fill up that 25% (Especially for avoidance armies).

As I prefer to fill my core with spear elves, I tend to go for harpies anyways.

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Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:04 pm
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The most effective double flee is made by our beloved druchii. For 2 main reasons, great movement and lack of panic test's. And this is accomplished with a team of Harpies and Dark Riders. Fast Cav can move after it rallied, which is also extremely important.

*Important: for non rule lawyers it is good to read page 13 and 20 of the BRB, since most of these play’s rely on a good understanding of them.

Also charge roll probability
2d6. Average is a 7+ with 58 % chance of success. 8+ = 42%, 9+ = 28%, 10+ = 17%, 11+ = 8%, 12+ = 3%,
3d6. Average is a 9+ with 52 % chance of success 10+ = 36%, 11+ = 20%, 12+ = 7%,

And the fact that it is extremely important that the combat is done after you magic phase, where you can buff/hex the combat in you favour to avoid major casualties. Which is always important when playing expensive and fragile troops.

Example:

The most optimal situation shown below.

Image

Kroxes declare a charge, harpies flee, no panic test is taken. Notice that an average roll of 9” for flee will just clear the DR.

Image

Next a LD test must be made to redirect, and dark riders flee. Since on average the harpies will be just over 1” from the dark riders the worse case scenario will be a double “6” for their flee roll, which means that the DR to flee past the harpies need a 3+. In reality you need 1's on all 3 flee dice.

Image


The biggest problem is the harpy LD 6 rally. A well positioned general will solve that problem. But even if you fail, it's not such a big deal, since you can always sacrifice the DR to buy an extra turn.

Image

it now your tight for space, so it's good to reform harpies once they have rallied.

Image

And back to square one ;).

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Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:58 am
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... but why not just do that with two units of Harpies? :) Only benefit I can see with DR is their ability to move after Rallying, but the double Harpy approach has benefits too:

- Even better movement
- Even greater lack of Panic tests (if the second unit in your example happens to roll high and flee through a third unit).
- Considerably cheaper


Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:54 am
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You can.

But say the ETC comp restricts harpies to 0-2, so they are not always around.

Usually harpies are the first thing's that are deployed, and they are usually on opposite flanks (unless your running around 4 units)

If your opponent send in a unit of his own chaff, the DR can move away from harm, harpies cant after a flee, so in those cases both units would go down.

DR work up nice synergies on the field with our scouts. Like securing a good vanguard move for DR, and DR provide a counter charge threat for the shades.

Having 2 unit's of harpies is risky when they want to rally, failing 2x LD6 tests is easily done. While it is good to keep in mind is, what may happen if a enemy unit declares charges against fleeing unit's, not only do they get to move, they also get to reform if they catch them. This could prove devastating in consequences, if a CC unit suddenly rushes past your lines and faces down the flank of your army.

plus every thing that is on the first page of this post.

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Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:32 pm
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But if the Lizardman rolls high enough on his 'redirected' charge to catch the fleeing Dark Riders he not only runs them down but the harpies too.


Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:48 pm
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Nope, stupid GW rules. He treat's all units (apart from the one they are charging) as impossible terrain, so must stop 1" in front.

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Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:10 pm
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KillerK wrote:
Nope, stupid GW rules. He treat's all units (apart from the one they are charging) as impossible terrain, so must stop 1" in front.


What page is that on? :shock: I thought if you contacted a fleeing unit it was destroyed?


Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:37 am
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The way I read it, it's a failed charge because the target can not be reached.

Once you redirect to the DR's, the Harpies are no longer a viable target:

Page 16 - "Declare Charge" - "... charging is the only way for units to reach close combat with the foe. If you want to attack an enemy then you must charge him - you simply cannot move into close combat without having declared a charge."

So the Harpies aren't viable.. (no redirection is permitted anymore) and that forces you to wheel around them:

Page 20, "Move chargers" - "They move directly forward, but are permitted one wheel of up to 90 degrees."

As the move can not be completed with a single wheel, it is impossible to reach the fleeing DR's behind the Harpies. This gives a failed charge:

Page 19, "Failed charge" - "... it moves directly towards the target... ...wheeling around impassable terrain and units, both friends and enemies..."

It is not permitted to charge through that unit. You have to go around it. If you can't wheel, then stopping is the only sensible solution.

This is not to be confused with the "pursuit move" which can destroy fleeing units upon contact, as page 58 explains: "Pursuit into fleeing foes".

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Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:43 pm
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Perhaps it might be interesting to post these here as well, though it should be noted that these "techniques" may be deeply frowned upon in some clubs and even considered illegal in some tournaments.

Original topic:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 18&t=86478

How it relates to KillerK's post:

Scenario 4: box cars

Image


You place a unit, DR or Harpy, at exactly 1" of the unit's front, just outside the unit's 45 view arc. Because the unit doesn't see you, it can not charge you. The enemy can not move forward without coming closer than 1" from your units. It is boxed and basically can't move except backwards.

Scenario 5: using skirmisher rules to make a charge illegal

This is suited not for DR's but for Harpies and Shades. Still, I consider it relevant in the topic. You place skirmishers along the side of the enemy, in such manner that the enemy is blocked by one or two skirmishers. The enemy can not move forward or wheel away. It can declare a charge BUT if you hold, or stand and shoot, then the skirmishers tighten up the formation going further back than the enemy's unit front rank. This means that the enemy has to make a wheel bigger than 90 degrees, which would make it an illegal charge.

Alternatively, this could be used by 2 skirmisher units, each blocking the enemy unit from wheeling or going forward. At the moment of declaration, the enemy unit could storm forwards to charge a skirmisher unit. But, as the skirmisher unit holds, its formation becomes tighter which forces the enemy to wheel. It can not wheel or move forward because of the other unit blocking its path.

Scenario 4, box cars, making charging impossible

Image

You can place a 2 DR units in the front of an enemy unit. The DR's are at an angle, but still force the enemy to charge the front. However, both DR's are "angled" so that the enemy is forced to wheel to reach its target front corner, marked in red. This very wheel is blocked by the other unit.

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Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:36 pm
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I like learning new tricks with our fast troops but I have to say that some of these are pushing the boundaries of taste and decency.

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Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:19 pm
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Agreed... In particular the ones I posted come from a thread debating wether they should be made illegal at the ETC. I feel it's important to know these and be aware of them though.. so you don't "accidentally" use them, or know in time when they are used against you.

I think that in a game like Warhammer, there will always be a point where the gaming rules may beat the realistic, natural instinct of a simulated battle. We can hope GW tries to keep it more or less balanced, but it's nigh impossible to avoid far reaching interpretations of the rules.

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Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:48 pm
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:( I got fked by those box cars today (keeping my exe and WE out of combat for 4 turns -.- my other units where way to busy with the rest and his wood elf eagles.. I just couln'T catch them (no harpiey :( )

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Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:34 pm
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Daeron wrote:

Scenario 4, box cars, making charging impossible

Image

You can place a 2 DR units in the front of an enemy unit. The DR's are at an angle, but still force the enemy to charge the front. However, both DR's are "angled" so that the enemy is forced to wheel to reach its target front corner, marked in red. This very wheel is blocked by the other unit.


In your second scenario wouldn't he make contact with both DR units and force them to 'close the door' since he cannot?


Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:53 am
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Well.. that would make it a flank charge and he must make a front charge. For a frontal charge, he needs to hit the corner marked in red to force a close the door on himself or you. That wheel is made impoassible.
If this were done with a piece of terrain and a single DR unit, I would call it a fairly legal move. However, using another unit of yourself as a blocker in this manner feels absurd to me.

Think about the alternative though... If the rules would state that this would become a viable flank charge, then the opponent could place a unit of his own in the way to force a flank charge on a unit where he should be charging the front.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:21 am
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This thread has inspired me.

I knew most of the stuff already but having it all together is great.

I not going to use the nasty stuff 'box cars' doesn't agree with me.

I just got 9 DR secondhand and in need of some work.

When I fix them up I can field 3 units of 5 plus 2 x 5 Harpies.

I reckon if I get some practice I can wreak havoc and set up some nice multi charges for my Hydra, chariots, dragon, peg etc.

Plus gives me a much better match up v warmachines.

Thanks.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:15 pm
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Please don't use the denial of charges tactics to win games. Warhammer is a game that can be abused to win, but in doing so you also take out all the fun of the game.

Also, most of these tactics are illegal in some tournaments as it goes against fair play.


Gidean wrote:
Daeron wrote:

Scenario 4, box cars, making charging impossible

Image

You can place a 2 DR units in the front of an enemy unit. The DR's are at an angle, but still force the enemy to charge the front. However, both DR's are "angled" so that the enemy is forced to wheel to reach its target front corner, marked in red. This very wheel is blocked by the other unit.


In your second scenario wouldn't he make contact with both DR units and force them to 'close the door' since he cannot?


Unless the BRB says you have to actually hit the flank and not just the unit, yes he will have to close the door... that is unless the backtail of the blocking unit is so long that he touches the other unit when trying to turn around with his flank into the front of that bigger unit. I think it might be a successful wheeling around from that illustration. The big unit gets a wheel and can wheel the opposite direction to hit the unit he charges, but if the BRB says that you have to actually hit the side you charge, you will always fail that charge.

Again, don't do it in friendly games or if you want to have a reputation as a fair player. Luckily most tournaments I join have a rule against such things.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:54 pm
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I agree with your warnings Omnichron, but I think it's important to have these situations put up for display for the simple call of awareness. In trying the tactics demonstrated by KillerK, be aware you don't take it a step too far and block your opponent from playing entirely. KillerK's tactics walk the right side of the line, where the focus is disrupting the enemy's battleline by forcing less favorable charges... not by denying him the game with details of the rules. That's a line we should be aware off, so we know not to cross it.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:09 pm
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@Daeron: Exactly... there's a fine line from using tactics with finesse to abusing the rules. Using skirmishers to block with one model and get out of line of sight when your opponent charges it, is one of those where you are abusing the rules. The example I responded on above is another.

Sure, you can do it but you shouldn't... We don't need to do such things to win either.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:28 pm
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There might be a case for a presentation of such tactics which are considered rule abuse or unfair play.
The difference being that a rule abuse is illegal gain, while unfair play is legal game.
The common point is that they both will spoil the fun out of your opponent, would get you low score in fair play in tournaments which use that evaluation, would sometimes be altogether banned, and would not raise your sense of being a smart general.

However, there is always a blurry limit.
I know that conga lines are considered unfair game, when they are perfectly legal and in no way a rule abuse.
Dual hydra are considered unfair game if you consider some tournament limitations.
Special character (Teclis for example) are considered sometimes unfair.

It would be nice to sort this out in a specific thread:
- illegal rule abuses
- ill defined rule handling (where rules allow two interpretations)
- legal rules pushed too far
- legal rules which are just bad sportmanship
- comp rules
- fair game behaviour (such as when in doubt, proposing the least favourable interpretation for yourself rather than the most likely; rerolling doubtful dice; ...).

I am not known for good sportsmanship, so I'd rather have someone else making this thread.

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Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:41 am
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