Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:35 am



Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
RBTs worth a Shot? 
Author Message
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
More RBT Feedback (2 x RBT's) from a Recent Tourney

Game 1 vs Ogre I was worried about them dieing to Iron-blasters so they were poorly placed for doing damage. In hindsight I would have deployed them on the hills and copped the losses as an Ironblaster killed my Level 4 which failed a Look Out Sir roll. The RBT's would have at least been firing at visible targets for 4+ turns.

2x Leadbelchers, 1 Iron Gut only, 2 x Sabre tusks 1 RBT survived. Killed 175 lost 100 = +75

Game 2 vs Skaven Sniped out 2 x Warpfire throwers, 1 Rattling Gun, 5 Gutter Runners, 5 Giant Rats, 2 Wounds on a Doomwheel no RBT's survived dang those Gutter Runners! Killed 318 lost 200 = +118

Game 3 vs Vampires killed 3 Blood Knights single bolt flank shot, and a few Grave Guard and Ghouls. both RBTs survived Killed 195 Lost 0 = +195

Game 4 vs Vampires They did very little killed some chaff. one RBT survived Killed 0 Lost 100 = -100 The vampire player kept re raising the wounds inflicted.

Game 5 vs Demons Killed a fiend and a few horrors, both RBTs survived. Killed 81 lost 0 = +81

So out of the 5 games the RBT's were ahead on 4 out of the 5, however this was not that significant in terms of battle points.

The second more important factor is the Composition Score of my army with RBT's was higher than with Hydras.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Last edited by Lorddrittz on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:44 am, edited 8 times in total.



Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:42 am
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 497
Location: The Black Ark Nemesis
Post 
Lord Tsunami wrote:
Some games i miss all shots, some games i hit the enemy general in the eye.


I think Drittz's realHammer feedback summed up the experience of most.

On average they will win back their points so they are not as deleterious a choice as critic's comments suggest. Are they underpowered compared to other war machines? Yes. Are they undercompetitive compared to Hydra's? Yes. Are they worth taking? Yes - despite the above.

Every time you take a Reaper you affect:
- Enemy Deployment
- Enemy Strategy and Tactics
- Enemy Movement
- Enemy Missile Targetting
- Enemy Fast/Chaff troop usage

So looked at in context they are a worthwhile choice.
(also helps if like me you have no Hydra model :P)

_________________
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."


Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:57 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
One thing I have to say about these guys? Location. Location. LOCATION. You can get the majority of the board's distance in deployment if you're careful about it (though I'm not a fan of PUSHING the 'you can fire from forests without worrying about TLoS' because it's splitting hairs to me.

I enjoy having them on a flank where you can aim for just about anything in their arc. If you can 'control a lane' or make it a pain for the enemy to get through (like with a DR flee/ reform that hopefully plunks them into the zone) it's a nice solid hit for harassment.

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:16 am
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
Posts: 1294
Location: Umeå, Sweden
Post 
My biggest issue with the RBT is that I find them hard to deploy properly;

- If they are deployed behind the battle line (7:th-ed style), they will probably be shooting through Hard Cover for most of the game. The exception is when facing juicy Large Targets or when having a hill, then this still works.
- If they are deployed between the fighting blocks (GW battle-report style) up front, then they can get a few clear shots off, but since they cannot flee a charge they create a stepping stone for enemy units on their way through your lines. (Advance with Peg inside Inf unit, charge RBT from ~17" away, win, overrun 9", voilá!). They also take up valuable space which will prevent your units from supporting each other properly.
- If they are deployed on a flank they have to be deployed fairly far forward to avoid the hard cover, and then they are very hard to protect properly.


Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:10 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
I found RbTs used against me by placing them far far away. This made it really a pain to deal with. There was little ground for my harpies to approach it without being charged unless I would take at least another turn to reach them. This effectively gave the RBTs 3 turns to shoot without concern... most warmachine hunting chaff can be killed by that time if you consider it worth saving the RBT.

3 rounds of RBT can hurt. Not shockingly, but it hurts.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:28 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
I have a quick one that an opponent seemed to like btw: he was in a Venom Thicket, just firing away because he was covered by the forest. It was at the VERY edge of his deploy (Scenario 5).

He hit EVERYTHING- as a poisoned attack- and pretty much had a full arc on EVERYTHING, with Cover because of being in a forest. Since he never moved (not even pivoting), he only made ONE test for placement.

going in after him was a nightmare, shooting at him prior was a headache, and poison versus poison fights with other Druchii suck.

(/2 cents)

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:19 am
Profile WWW
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:54 pm
Posts: 312
Location: In the South Lands
Post 
@L1qw1d: Venom thicket poison only applies to CC. :(

_________________
South African Players: http://www.warhammergenerals.co.za
Religion: A cult for the masses
God Protect Me ... From Your Followers
ETC: Rules for whingers who still want to play 7th


Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:16 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
He was SO vehement.

I...may actually kill this person.

Not really but I may hit him with the internet.

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:18 am
Profile WWW
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:54 pm
Posts: 312
Location: In the South Lands
Post 
L1qw1d wrote:
He was SO vehement.
I...may actually kill this person.
Not really but I may hit him with the internet.

Internet won't hurt enough. Show him the page in the VBRB and then hit him with it.

_________________
South African Players: http://www.warhammergenerals.co.za
Religion: A cult for the masses
God Protect Me ... From Your Followers
ETC: Rules for whingers who still want to play 7th


Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:59 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8722
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Azimyth wrote:
Show him the page in the VBRB.
That's page 119.
Azimyth wrote:
and then hit him with it.
That's 512 pages.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:50 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:16 pm
Posts: 8
Post 
Can rbt fire over normal troops with out plenty?

Also can we cast buffes on it, the 1+ to hit from lord metal is what I am referring to. Because a magical AP flaming attack sound pretty useful.

Also I plan on including a pair of these in my 2500 point list. To support my rxb blocks.


Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:31 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
I would guess the +1 to hit would work. The flaming would work too, but the armor piercing would not. The RBT shots already have armor piercing and, much like our RxBs, it doesn't stack.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:27 am
Profile WWW
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
Calisson wrote:
Azimyth wrote:
Show him the page in the VBRB.
That's page 119.
Azimyth wrote:
and then hit him with it.
That's 512 pages.

Thats a great comment Calisson :)

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:27 am
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am
Posts: 518
Post 
Daeron wrote:
I would guess the +1 to hit would work. The flaming would work too, but the armor piercing would not. The RBT shots already have armor piercing and, much like our RxBs, it doesn't stack.


Actually, RBT's are NOT AP. They are S4 -2 to armor saves but they do not have the armor piercing special rule which means they could benefit from that spell in the lore of metal.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:27 am
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:25 am
Posts: 10
Location: Finland
Post 
Entreri Bloodletter wrote:
Daeron wrote:
I would guess the +1 to hit would work. The flaming would work too, but the armor piercing would not. The RBT shots already have armor piercing and, much like our RxBs, it doesn't stack.


Actually, RBT's are NOT AP. They are S4 -2 to armor saves but they do not have the armor piercing special rule which means they could benefit from that spell in the lore of metal.

Bretonnia is one of my regular opponents. Quite often I field two RBTs just because of the fond memories that my opponent has of my devastating RBTs of the 5th edition WHFB. He isn't my only opponent who fears RBTs way more than actually necessary in my opinion and I've done my best to maintain their paranoia. Usually his Peg Knights take care of my RBTs and I don't mind it. Usually I get 2-3 rounds of firing with one RBT and 3-5 with the other, if I have enough viable spots to deploy them relatively far from each other. The Peg Knights aren't as big of a threat to my other units while they are occupied in RBT hunting. If I get really lucky, I might be able to take down a few Pegasi and cause panic in that unit, which is surprisingly effective, since they only have Ld 8 and are usually outside of their general's Ld bubble.

As an added bonus, the Lore of Metal spell that gives AP to RBTs, is pretty much our optimal way of taking down Brets with Blessing. S4 with -3 to armour save and Brets only have 6+ ward for these shots. Besides, Lore of Metal is pretty useful vs. Brets in any case.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:25 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
The FAQ doesn't change their rules to AP either. I'm not sure everyone will appreciate that interpretation, but it does seem valid.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:36 am
Profile WWW
Cold One Knight

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Post 
Nice I am going to try out metal instead of death for a while.

This is a tasty synergy.

I am thinking this is the kind of spell people will let go more often than not.

Then it's whittle down your Monstrous cav time.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:27 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
Hmmm... I must say, going over a few numbers I notice that this spell does give a noteworthy improvement to the performance of the RBT. But I'm not yet convinced. Against tough adversaries, it tends to up the reliability of a second wound, or a third wound somewhat. We all know that can be valuable.. But it feels a bit meager considering the investment. I mean.. you're going from 1 good kill and 2 unlikely to 2 good kills and maybe a third. It looks impressive when seeing the percentages go up, but it's still just a good shot at doing 1 extra wound.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:38 pm
Profile WWW
Cold One Knight

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:21 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Post 
Yes doing the numbers it is probably nearly always better to cast on a unit of 20 xbows.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:51 pm
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Okies looking at the Lore of Metal to find synergies with the RBT's.

Signature Searing Doom (no synergy) but a great spell

1. Plague of Rust opponents armour save lowered by 1 (great if using multi bolts)**

2. Enchanted Blades (+1 to hit and magical attacks, not brilliant but for sniping ethereal and by passing Wood Elf Ward Saves, so situational)**

3. Glittering Robe (no synergy)

4. Golden Hounds (no synergy)

5. Transmute to lead (similar to plague of rust and stackable with it)**

6. Final Transmutation (no synergy)

While the Synergies aren't brilliant it makes Lore of Metal more useful if you have a Lvl 4 on Metal and end up with some of the poorer spells.

So 3 of the Metal Spells may synergise with the RBTs and RxB's and DR's.

So possibly in a shooty DE list with -1 or 2 from the spells + armour piercing, will reduce or eliminate any save for troops which only have HA to start with eg: Storm Vermin, White Lions, etc....

While the other Lore of Metal Spells deal with the 1-2+ AS troops.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:58 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:43 pm
Posts: 256
Location: Lying in wait for the unwary...
Post 
I quite often take four RTB, in really big games, six. That said, we very rarely play less than 3k( we like the spectacle of big games)

The trick with them is to concentrate fire on one target at a time till its run away or wiped out, normally I fight VC so it's a case of shoot till its all gone back to its respective transport case :D

I'm yet to try boosting them with the lore of metal, but flaming magical attacks vs spirit hosts, YES PLEASE!

Against other opponents, Dwarves, lizards and a Khainite DE, only the stunted blubber beards can outshoot me. If deployed to support each other, with a unit of crossbow men with FC and shields they become a very prickly problem to shift, and if you ignore them, it'll hurt too ( flank shots any one?)

One thing I have to mention: the real reason I take so many is I'm really bad at dice rolling, so the more dice I can throw around the better my chances of actually hitting something! I've been known to miss a large target six inches in front of my RTBs, with all four shots....... Sad, but true.

_________________
We are the pilgrims master, we shall always go a little further

[PLOG]. http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t= ... ight=kurze


Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:17 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am
Posts: 1043
Post 
I'm in the "They are a waste of 100 Points" camp. Take a chariot instead. More of a chance of earning back it's points during the game. Eight Edition ruined our Bolt Throwers and our evil cousins' bolt throwers as well. ;)


Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:36 am
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Well currently the Monstrous cavalry are starting to dominate the game.

The new Skullcrushers from the WoC book 1+ AS and T5 but only 2 wounds they are asking for an RBT single shot which has a 2/3 chance of killing one if it wounds. If its a flank shot it could even stab 2 or more by penetrating the ranks!! Nice!!!

I found this interesting insight as to RBT usage from our High Elf cousins.

"On Repeater Bolt Throwers

My reasons for continuing to take Repeater Bolt Throwers lie in the fact that they play a niche role which is particilarly beneficial to High Elves, who excel in combat beyond the suggestion of their points-cost but who die easily to shooting and harrasment. Specifically, my reasons are as follows:

1 - RBTs were never very good at being shot at so, in that sense, their change from 3 wounds to 2 doesn't really affect the way I use them.

2 - They fulfill a role that no other High Elf unit is capable of- applying serious force at range. Because of the long range, this force can be used in conjunction with any one of my units on targets of my choice- either prior to a charge, in conjunction with other ranged attacks or in laying down an early wound or two on scary targets. In this way RBT's can tip the scales in my favour on a point of the battlefield chosen by me, providing excellent flexibility.

3 - Added to point 2, RBTs are perfectly adapted to taking down units that I want out of the way but don't want to have to waste a valuable unit on- in particular enemy flyers, scouts, skirmishers and ranked missile troops. As such they are the best thing I can buy for giving me more free movement of the board for my combat units, which I'll favour against the enemy combat troops if they haven't been shot up by crossbows. Eagles can do this, but tend to be sacrificial units: RBTs can do this and survive.

4 - In conjunction with my archers and Archmage (even with Life), I can lay down a serious amount of ranged fire. This will eradicate enough enemy shooting to render attacks by my combat units possible. RBTs are effectively the best shield with which I can protect my swordmasters from enemy archers. By removing said archers. Incidentally, Life lore can also be used to ping back that lost wound onto my machines.

5 - Against machine-heavy armies, RBTs provide very tempting targets. If they draw fire away from my combat units while they advance (and who benefit from 8th Ed allowing faster cross-board movement as much as the enemy units do), they've done ok. Before they go they'll focus on enemy missile troops as per usual.

6 - An important one for me: against opponents without all that much long-ranged shooting (Warriors, Lizards), RBTs will curse the enemy with itchy feet. These opponents will tend to feel that they have to advance or be slowly ground down. When they do advance, it allows me to exploit open flanks and gaps that open up, as well as taking advantage of the closer range for spells and missiles. If the enemy feels able to stay put, on the other hand, it is easier for him to choose benefical positions or castle up to the point where attacking him becomes much harder.

I hope that explains it. Basically, with only 200 points I've turned my army from a 'combat only' to a 'shooty army'. The tactical flexibility this provides is exactly what my combat-dedicated elites need to give them the edge.

EDIT:

I just found this wonderful quote from Tethlis on the "how to combat DE" tactics thread. It perfectly describes the usefulness of repeaters and the oxymoron that can be current fashionable thinking in 8th Ed.

Tethlis wrote:
Dark Elves are also an opponent which is making me shift more and more towards heavy archer units, and avoiding spearmen and Lothern Seaguard altogether. Since noone is taking bolt throwers anymore, the 30 inch range on longbows means the difference between advancing through a hail of repeater crossbow fire, and making the Dark Elves come to you. It's a HUGE difference in how the battle unfolds.


So the gist here is that "we're awesome at combat, but just have to worry about taking out enemy shooting". I heartily agree with the philosophy, but would suggest that taking repeaters is a better idea than relying only on archers, since they have better than 30" range and are more killy. As suggested - together with my 25 archers - my 200 point investment can make a huge difference to how the battle unfolds.

They aren't perfect for their points, but repeaters fill a niche that is particularly important to killy-but-fragile High Elves."


A lot of the points made here apply to certain Dark Elf Armies.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Last edited by Lorddrittz on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:37 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
A lot of the tactics they mention rely on the enemy being intimidated by them. I'm not. Now what? I just tank the damage or shoot them away. If you pick 1, they are easy to handle by the enemy. If you take 2, they are a point sink.

RBTs aren't useless.. but for 200 points you can a Master on a peg with the cloak of hag graef and the Whip of Agony. Or a solid unit of Shades and a unit of harpies.
Take two RBTs and work out the damage. You're firing at a T5 opponent, 12 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds? 9 Shades: 12 hits, 2 wounds. Sure.. less armor save from the RBT, but this comparison is fovoring RBT already. Take higher T, the shades are better. Take lower T, the shades are better. Take less armor, the shades are better. Taking out warmachines? Yeah, shades are better. Taking wounds? Shades are better. Blocking the enemy? Well.. you get the idea. And you have points left for a unit of harpies to boot.

The single bolt option just doesn't cut it. Imagine shooting the flank of a skullcrusher unit (how awesome that would be, and easy to do too!):
- 25% no bolt reaches it
- 50% chance only 1 bolt reaches it
- 25% 2 bolts reach it
- Each bolt has a 33% chance to fail to wound
- Each bolt has a 33% chance not kill a model and fail to penetrate ranks
- After a 66% chance to kill a model (if they hit and wound it), they have 50% chance to fail to wound and another 33% chance to fail to kill it if they do wound it.

A single bolt has 11% chance (1 out of 9) to take 1 skullcrusher down. 3.7% to take 2 down. But it has 66% chance to do nothing, nada.

So if they can't help us with units like this, what is it they do bring to the table?

RBTs can kill stuff, but what they can kill effectively is too limited. They help kill chaff or thin hordes... like pretty much any unit in our army can do for the same price while being more mobile, more flexible, only marginally less performant in some extreme examples and vastly more performant in a good deal of other situations.

They are a rare choice with no niche, no trick, and don't bring anything to the table even core can't fix. If they were core choice, yes, I'd say it may be interesting to pick a few along to replace RXBs. Anything else? Nah. You don't need them in any way.

They are not useless, but a weak choice by comparison.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:34 pm
Profile WWW
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Daeron wrote:
A lot of the tactics they mention rely on the enemy being intimidated by them. I'm not. Now what? I just tank the damage or shoot them away. If you pick 1, they are easy to handle by the enemy. If you take 2, they are a point sink.

RBTs aren't useless.. but for 200 points you can a Master on a peg with the cloak of hag graef and the Whip of Agony. Or a solid unit of Shades and a unit of harpies.
Take two RBTs and work out the damage. You're firing at a T5 opponent, 12 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds? 9 Shades: 12 hits, 2 wounds. Sure.. less armor save from the RBT, but this comparison is fovoring RBT already. Take higher T, the shades are better. Take lower T, the shades are better. Take less armor, the shades are better. Taking out warmachines? Yeah, shades are better. Taking wounds? Shades are better. Blocking the enemy? Well.. you get the idea. And you have points left for a unit of harpies to boot.

The single bolt option just doesn't cut it. Imagine shooting the flank of a skullcrusher unit (how awesome that would be, and easy to do too!):
- 25% no bolt reaches it
- 50% chance only 1 bolt reaches it
- 25% 2 bolts reach it
- Each bolt has a 33% chance to fail to wound
- Each bolt has a 33% chance not kill a model and fail to penetrate ranks
- After a 66% chance to kill a model (if they hit and wound it), they have 50% chance to fail to wound and another 33% chance to fail to kill it if they do wound it.

A single bolt has 11% chance (1 out of 9) to take 1 skullcrusher down. 3.7% to take 2 down. But it has 66% chance to do nothing, nada.

So if they can't help us with units like this, what is it they do bring to the table?

RBTs can kill stuff, but what they can kill effectively is too limited. They help kill chaff or thin hordes... like pretty much any unit in our army can do for the same price while being more mobile, more flexible, only marginally less performant in some extreme examples and vastly more performant in a good deal of other situations.

They are a rare choice with no niche, no trick, and don't bring anything to the table even core can't fix. If they were core choice, yes, I'd say it may be interesting to pick a few along to replace RXBs. Anything else? Nah. You don't need them in any way.

They are not useless, but a weak choice by comparison.


I agree with a lot of the things you have said Daeron however here are a few points.

Looking at your Maths a different way.
If 2 single bolts hit Skull crushers there is a 100% chance of killing 1, a better than 44% chance of killing 2 or more.

I am unsure the cost of the Skullcrushers but killing 2 should almost recoup the cost of the RBT's and any extra would be a bonus.

RBT's may need several turns to be useful if they get ignored as you suggest this is when they shine, 6 rounds of shooting from even 2 RBT's will have an impact.

The Lore of Metal spell Enchanted Blades can further enhance one of the RBT's chances of hitting. So with a Level 4 on Metal this would be a possible option.

The Skullcrushers seem hard to deal with whatever we use shades are unlikely to be better than the RBT's in this instance due to 6's to wound and the 1+ AS of the Skullcrushers.

I am not saying RBT's are an auto include in every DE list but worth considering at least in certain DE army builds and if there are Tourney restrictions.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:35 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software