Lore of Death - a tribute

[Burizan]

I am a bit perplexed as to why you seem to disregard or downplay the many matchups were death magic sniping is not very effective. I am sure you must have faced many of them.

I am perplexed as to why you outright reject/ignore everything I write and still continue to post the same points. I have faced many of them, and won. Using death magic sniping no less. It seems as though you want me to provide answers that don't lean on the other spells of lore of Death - the situational spells. They are situational because you don't always have a target - but often anything that can't be dealt with by sniping can be slaughtered with a purple sun or soulblight/d&d + shooting.

Just to name a few common armies you often face in a tournament:
DE: CoB 5+ ward + MR 2/3 (as previously explained)
HE: Loremasters Cloak or Banner of the World Dragon
Lizzies: Becalming Cogitation (You move within 24" of the Slaan, and with the slaans banehead and inherent ward save your more vulnerable to his spells (maybe death sniping) that he is to yours)
Ogres: Rune Maw Banner on their Gutstar
Brettonia & Empire have easy access to MR though characters
WoC usually have 3+ ward on most characters
TK often field their own hardcore Death Sniping team
VC often show up with well protected deathstar build of some kind
Demons have a blanket ward save on all models and characters

DE: I already wrote about how easy it would be to break through this setup.

HE: Loremaster's cloak is no problem - I will target the 99% of models in the army which DON'T have it. Sure, banner of the world dragon bunker units limit sniper options. However, they will be slow, none of their characters will get to do anything useful all game and I can clean up the rest. I may also be able to set up a combat threat such as hydras - it doesn't take much to kill an elven BSB - and then suddenly sniping is incredibly effective again.

Lizardmen - Becalming cogitation is annoying. Fortunately you can stay outside 24", with a familiar within 24". So you can snipe him and avoid him simultaneously. Not that you really need to, as a well placed purple sun will end the game by wiping out the rest of his army, and my build allows you to get that placing. Again, one model being protected, even by a 24" bubble, is not the end of the world. He may have other characters to snipe, or stegadons, or salamanders. Not remotely scary.

Ogres - Rune maw banner. Again, im not going to pretend I don't have purple sun. If he does this, he also can't buff his main unit - which I find hilarious. There are again plenty of other targets to snipe in between purple suns - and I'm sure as hell gonna generate the dice to do it.

Bretonnia & Empire - "easy access to MR". So probably no better than 3+ ward saves? That can be penetrated. Many things won't be protected. He will likely have war machines. He doesn't like purple sun. Again I can't see myself losing to these two.

WoC - Sure they're tough. They can be beaten though, often 1+ characters will have a 5+ or worse ward. Personally I like to take advantage of their low Ld with doom and darkness - frenzy baiting anything khornate. WoC are my other army, so foruntealy I know how to break them.

TK - Not scary. Again purple sun wipes them, many unprotected characters, very slow.

VC - Not scary. Purple sun wipes them. I actually killed out vampire lord + wight BSB bunker using sniping - third casting of Fate of Bjuna rolled 10 or 11 and he got crushed.

Demons - I dislike playing demons, purple sun breaks their ward if they are under I5 and the rest of their army can be avoided.

And when facing a reasonably sensible opponent with little sniping protetion, he will press to engage his vulnerable characters/units in any combat, so they cannot get targeted. Again limiting sniper spells potentiel.

When going to a tournament, you need to build your army to face most of these builds, as its generally a bad idea to rely on luck in your matchups. Most likely you will face several of the builds above in a strong tournament.

My opponents won't be in combat with me if I don't want them to be. Quite simple really. My opponents are not the simpletons you seem to think they are, I just build a maneuverable army.

Death magic Sniping has some good matchups, especially against inexperienced people. Its true that in most matchups, even if your opponents characters are well protected, you will often have other targets who are vulnerable (Ironblasters, warmachines, some monsters), but in most cases you are resorting to shooting sparrows with a cannon.
Better and more efficient options are quite simply available.

Kindly stop insulting my opponents. I am glad you acknowledge death magic sniping as a "cannon". And maybe a 100-150pt war machine/monster is a "sparrow". I'm fine with killing that if there aren't other targets. I'm also happy killing 400 point lords, if I can. As long as I rack up 600-800 VPs with my mage I'm gonna win the game.

This leads to the next point. While Death Magic is a great lore. Shadow is even greater, and without having half of its spells being situational.

We clearly understand "situational" differently. I am saying the sniping spells, when used my way, always have a target, are not situational because they are usually an effective casting option. While with shadow most spells are useless without being in combat, and pit of shades/ pendulum are not universally effective.

And lastly regarding the Grim Reaper build. (Lv4 with PoK, focus familiar on dark steed/pegasus.)
Its a fine build, but a lv4 build with the Sacrificial Dagger is leaps and bounds better.

Believe it or not I've used that before and it isn't as effective, for the reasons you falsely say my build is ineffective. If you have numerous blocks of infantry then you're gonna be in combat and fail. As I have said hundreds of times, it is about being able to target any model in their army, at the lower value: 98% chance to cast with 2 dice.

With that bing said, a lv2 on dark peg with ToF + PoK and Death Magic is an interesting option.
But you have to remember that a character like that is vulnerable to BS shooting and many magic missiles (with low or no str).

Being unable to reach 98% chance to cast is a major drawback between her and the lv.4. I am curious about her though, as the speed is still there.

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

Well, this is getting competitive

As a less experienced player, I find the points and counter-points made by Burizan and Scyloc very informative.

Thanks for the discussion gentlemen

[L1qw1d]

Also, using Metal and Death is near IDEAL dealing with WoC, or the Dark that can allocate hits to Characters. Handle all the Chosen unit, but you have to GRIND that disc-surfing jerk round by round the faster the better, and Death is handy for that.

[Scyloc]

@Burizan
First I must congratulate you.
You must be the best warhammer player in the world. You never loose a battle it seems.

I am perplexed as to why you outright reject/ignore everything I write ...

I do nothing of the sort. Go through my previous posts, and you will find we largely agree that death magic is a strong lore.

I have faced many of them, and won.

Just because your facing a "bad" matchup, does not mean you cannot and will not win. You just need to work harder.

The matchups i wrote below are not necessarily bad matchups for Death magic users, just matchups where sniping is difficult.


There is really no reason to go into the discussion on the different builds with sniping resistance, it is a very complex discussion, almost impossible to do online.
Generally speaking we disagree on the ease by which they can be cracked.
Allthough you make some good points in some of the matchups, in many others your comments border on "X army/build is no problem at all, i just push my "i win" button" to me.
I am not trying to insult you. I am just trying to illustrate why this discussion is difficult over the net.

My opponents are not the simpletons you seem to think they are...

My point is exactly the opposite, that opponents are not simpletons, and they will do their best to win. No battleplan survives contact with the enemy.

Regarding the sacrificial dagger and its potential. Ill gladly go into a discussion on its merits, but I would suggest to do it in another thread. Lets just acknowledge that there probably is a reason why it is so widely used.
But i agree with your point, that the dagger does not mix well with a 100% mobile army.

Regarding Death vs Shadow. Same point as above.

That being said I am sure you have developed a build where Death magic is very effective for you.

It could be very interesting if you would share you build and your tactics.

[Calisson]

Mod's note @ Scyloc & Burizan
A little humour is fine.
Just please make sure it does not drift to sarcasm or worse.
If you don't understand someone else's point, that's often because of misunderstanding. Try to sort it out first.

Thank you for keeping tactical discussions within the tone in which they must remain.
Calisson

[Burizan]

I'll keep it brief as I already wrote one reply but lost it!

You must be the best warhammer player in the world. You never loose a battle it seems.

I'm not great. I make mistakes all the time. Usually I'd win ~65% of my games. Since using this particular death mage I have won 9x%.

My Setup:

lv.4 w/ focus familiar, talisman of protection, black dragon egg.
3 x 5 dark riders w/ rxbs, standards, musicians.
Either 5 rxb dark riders or ~20-25 spearmen
2 Hydras

The rest varies. I have played the most games (~15/25) with 3 x 5 shades w/ rending star assassin and 14 flaming witch elves, but also had success with ASF Executioners and CoK blocks.


Purple Sun

One of the best spells in the lore. It occurs to me that even with it, most death mages won't autowin against the low I armies. With my build victory is almost equal to the chance of rolling purple sun, because if I have it I can force the big version through using all but one dice (Druchii Sorcery) on one or more turns, in a straight line through 2-3 units where the roll simply has to be "not misfire". This is because she can move and place a familiar right next to the first unit such that the template covers their unit entirely when placed, and have it go straight towards the next. Because of the size of the template, even 6" is enough to hit a second unit.

Once two units with low initiative are sucked to a hellish dimension, lets say a conservative 30 wounds, I get to recover about 10 power dice. If I miscast then they will have Dispel dice left and effectively I have a second "normal" magic phase. However half the time I cast it on a large value, without miscasting, and my opponent simply fails to dispel, giving me free rein to cast every spell I have while they remain helpless. The other scenario - they dispel it with dice - isn't the end of the world, as I can still generate d3+1 dice with my die most of the time, and if I succeed then my sniping spells may generate further PD.

Hopefully this explains why a large number of the scenarios are easy to dismiss. Honestly I had gotten so used to mobility I hadn't considered the hassle that purple sun usually is! Roughly 1/3 of all armies can be wiped this way, while about 50% of armies have a few low I monsters, warmachines etc.



"Weaknesses"

WoC, Daemons and very particular elven builds are potentially challenging. However, many of my "regular" games involve WoC or elves, and I can think of very little that puts me below ~50% of winning, which is something I should have clarified. My friend actually built a lizardmen list with becalming cogitation on a flying slaan, a tonne of skinks and salamanders with the aim of beating her, but in spite of avoiding purple sun quite well the skinks dislike 3 potent breath weapons and the salamanders can be sniped.


Sacrificial Dagger?

One of my favourite items. It works great with every lore except death. Using dagger with the sniper spells often means you just lose a model and cast on a higher value, with a slightly enhanced chance of not casting. Your opponent has the ability to escape your sniper spells, and purple sun won't be horrendous unless your opponent lines up in front of you.



Syloc, if hypothetically, the sniper spells were consistently easy to avoid by sitting every character in a bunker MR/magic immune unit then he is not protected, but trapped. A small, concentrated inspiring presence/BSB bubble where no character can leave without certain death. I still have access to other Death spells, which are indeed strong. Even if I can't snipe stuff the idea of trapping key characters without even having to roll dice is quite attractive.

[Gidean]

I'll keep it brief as I already wrote one reply but lost it!

You must be the best warhammer player in the world. You never loose a battle it seems.

I'm not great. I make mistakes all the time. Usually I'd win ~65% of my games. Since using this particular death mage I have won 9x%.

My Setup:

lv.4 w/ focus familiar, talisman of protection, black dragon egg.
3 x 5 dark riders w/ rxbs, standards, musicians.
Either 5 rxb dark riders or ~20-25 spearmen
2 Hydras

I fail to see how your sorceress is so mobile. She rides with the Dark Riders for Look Out Sir protection but takes away their fast cav ability. So now you have a simple cav unit that has to wheel and such just like any other. Moreover, your Dark Riders can no longer march and shoot while she's with the unit. I am really baffled how you keep your skink using buddy from filling her and her escorts with holes?

[Burizan]

I fail to see how your sorceress is so mobile. She rides with the Dark Riders for Look Out Sir protection but takes away their fast cav ability. So now you have a simple cav unit that has to wheel and such just like any other. Moreover, your Dark Riders can no longer march and shoot while she's with the unit. I am really baffled how you keep your skink using buddy from filling her and her escorts with holes?

The dark riders are a temporary solution to an occasional problem. Ultimately I don't mind if a unit gets shot up - I can hop to another before much damage can be done to her. Bodyguard-on-request is just one of many functions they have, and I won't lose sleep over a missed shooting phase. An 18" move is a load more mobile than 10", plus 6" of flexible focus familiar means she gets where she wants. She spends a lot of time on her own, and will usually only be with a unit of DR in the first turn, possibly longer if against a shooting heavy army. Sometimes she hides behind a building and sticks the familiar inside (giving you insane targeting options and range).

Unfortunately she can never have fast cavalry, but being alone is nearly as good. The choice over a Dark Pegasus is learned, I started out leaning the other way, and my pendant was sitting on my BSB. Look out sir is a necessity if you don't have a Pendant would protect against cannons and stone throwers! Even with pendant though, the pegasus is still 32 points more, and it is still useful to have somewhere to go.

Skinks may be quick, but she's quicker, and she has a S4 breath weapon. I have had bad experiences with skinks in the past (lost an 'unkillable' dreadlord to skinks in a previous tournament!) so I tend to be careful.

[Calisson]

I fail to see how your sorceress is so mobile. She rides with the Dark Riders... but takes away their fast cav ability. ...Moreover, your Dark Riders can no longer march and shoot while she's with the unit.

There is not one but three or four units of 5 dark riders w/ rxbs.

If sorc is in unit DR1.
Move DR2, DR3 and DR4 as fast cav.
Move sorc from DR1 to DR2 (or 3 or 4).
Move DR1 as fast cav.
ALL 21 models have moved as fast cav.

Then shoot with DR1, DR3 and DR4 (DR2 can no longer shoot now after double-marching (or is it galloping?), having lost fast cav as the sorc joined them).

[Prince fabulas]

Also if she joins the unit of 20 warriors mentioned she is safe from skinks for a while.

2 hydras plus death magic is very strong.

Doom & Darkness plus terror charge.

Or soulblight plus hydra flame.

It's not often possible to badly wound/kill 1 hydra to reduce the strength of his flame before he torches an important unit.

It's near impossible to with two.

In the comp landscape (if that makes any sense) I play this would rarely be allowed.

You would be allowed witha dragon and hydra though.

[Gidean]

I fail to see how your sorceress is so mobile. She rides with the Dark Riders... but takes away their fast cav ability. ...Moreover, your Dark Riders can no longer march and shoot while she's with the unit.

There is not one but three or four units of 5 dark riders w/ rxbs.

If sorc is in unit DR1.
Move DR2, DR3 and DR4 as fast cav.
Move sorc from DR1 to DR2 (or 3 or 4).
Move DR1 as fast cav.
ALL 21 models have moved as fast cav.

Then shoot with DR1, DR3 and DR4 (DR2 can no longer shoot now after double-marching (or is it galloping?), having lost fast cav as the sorc joined them).

I see. For some reason I got the impression he had the unit of DR 5 x 3 (15 strong). While this would certainly allow for missile/spell and warmachine protection, it would be extremely clunky to manuever. I like the 'hop-scotch' technique you describe.

[Omnichron]

I've tried a bit of the death lore in the past, with the focus of sniping enemy characters.

The best unit I've had my sorceress in for the task, is shades. Even though they "only" move 10, you can turn around and about as much as you want, facing wherever you want and get your reach very swiftly. Together with some nice chaff, counter charging forces and so on, you can really wreak havoc amongst enemy lines.

The shadestar I used half a year ago was a big success, and even though I did some mistakes that kinda cost me, I almost always went for at least two sniping spells and soulblight. The result was that I managed to get the necessary snipes in, not only against characters, but monsters, chariots and other individual things that could be quite devastating for the unit.

In my opinion, all the spells (Except the aspect) of the death lore are good against most armies. Only WoC has some builds and setups that I feel shuts you down or even makes it more dangerous for yourself (As he might be able to use your spells... and snipe you down instead).

As Scyloc says, there are many ways to protect yourself from death sniping, although my experience is that most are voulnerable to it to some degree... and even though they might have 3+ wards, a wound will get in now and then, and suddenly the character is dead. That being said, you should NEVER take risks where you depend on managing those snipes... the sniping is too random to count on killing things. In my games in the tournament, I went from doing nothing in one game to kill all character the next.

Another thing that works quite well, is the Lord with two lvl 1 sorceresses of death. Two spirit leeches each round with LD 10. Hurts like hell.

[Gidean]

In my opinion, all the spells (Except the aspect) of the death lore are good against most armies. Only WoC has some builds and setups that I feel shuts you down or even makes it more dangerous for yourself (As he might be able to use your spells... and snipe you down instead).

How about trying to make this work against a Lizardman army with a LOL Slann, who gets the extra die for each spell casting and can also remove all your 6s when you try to cast? That seems harder than WoC.

Another thing that works quite well, is the Lord with two lvl 1 sorceresses of death. Two spirit leeches each round with LD 10. Hurts like hell.

I don't see how the level ones get past being dispelled. I seldom get off spells on less than a level 3 caster.

[Omnichron]

How about trying to make this work against a Lizardman army with a LOL Slann, who gets the extra die for each spell casting and can also remove all your 6s when you try to cast? That seems harder than WoC.

I've onily played against Lizardmen with death lore once, and I did lose that time... however it wasn't due to the lore not working, but his list being perfect to take down mine. I almost sniped the Slann back then, having some minor problems with getting the spells through. But with 3 sniping spells, he just had 1 wound left when the game ended. The reason he survived was that I had to use the death lore against some of his other chars first and his two hordes would have killed my shades, so I had to keep back too much to get Bjuna in.

WoC can have their lord immune to death lore, and a 3+ or even 2+ ward against magic damage...

I don't see how the level ones get past being dispelled. I seldom get off spells on less than a level 3 caster.

With PoD, channeling and the ability to roll as many dices as we want, you have a good chance getting at least one through. And with LD10, you have a proper chance to kill what you snipe... I do agree though, having a low level against a lvl 4 is kinda tough.

[Lorddrittz]

The Synergy of using the Focus Familiar with Lore of Death is very good.

Effectively changing the range of the Death Spells.

Spirit Leech (Signature Spell) 12" + 6" FF = 18"s
1. Aspect Dreadknight 24"s + 6" FF = 30"s
2. Caress of Laniph 12" + 6"s FF = 18"s
3. Soulblight 24"s + 6" FF = 30"s
4. Doom & Darkness 24"s + FF = 30"
5. Fate of Bjuna 12"s + 6" FF = 18"
6. Purple Sun 12"s-36"s with FF

Death Sniping
Another use when playing Vampire Armies is sniping Ethereals such as Banshees.


Character Mount Options

I like the idea of getting Look Out Sir with the Dark Riders whether the Mage is in (2+ LOS) or (4+ LOS) close to these units it gives extra protection.

The second more expensive mount is the Pegasus which allows slightly higher movement and flying over units and buildings. Also making the Mage T4 and an extra wound if a Lvl 2 Mage, which is nice. However the Pendant of Kaeleth might be better if using the Pegasus.

[Daeron]

I reread the rules concerning the command group and it answers the question, whether or not we can snipe musicians and standard bearers with death spells. The answer is "Not really". It can't be used as a tactic to remove a magical banner or put a unit without musician, unless they are the final models in the unit (following the order of removal per rules).

According to the rules, we can indeed snipe the standard bearer or musician, but then another model will take its place, picking up its standard or musical instrument. The book also emphasizes that the replacement is likely to be a worse musician than the original musician. So depending on the musician's replacement you could deal the enemy a terrible moral blow... Or, depending on the musician, you could do it a tremendous favor.

[Burizan]

@Calisson: an excellent and concise summary of what I should have said =D

@Prince Fabulas: if I can convince my friend to let me model rep I simply HAVE to try her on a dragon, she deserves to travel in style

@Ominchron: I've toyed with various degrees of shadestar in my head but never committed to using them in a game. I dislike facing deathstars, but I still see enough of them so maybe its time I tried it. I like the idea of running her with ~9 shades though. I slightly know what you mean about erratic results though, you can wipe out 3 things in one turn or spend three turns killing one character. It always seem to happen eventually though!

The Ld10 trick is a nice concept - it means a higher damage output for the spells you get through. It's a heavy investment of points though and it falls into the category of "hammering square pegs into round holes" as against high Ld you can usually do better with caress of laniph or fate of bjuna.

@Daeron as I suspected, thanks for checking. At least we can take out champions - a potential bonus is using this to avoid being blocked by a challenge when we charge a character in

[Daeron]

Against certain armies, assassinating champions may prove more effective... Particularly armies where Champions that carry magic items. But if you have some PD left, it's still a nifty thing to have.