So I've just come off an extremely sore loss against a 2.5k Warriors army that consisted of the following:
30 Chaos Warriors with shields and Mark of Tzeentch
40 Chaos Marauders with shields and Mark of Tzeentch
18 Chaos Chosen with shields and Mark of Tzeentch
Level 1 Chaos Sorcerer with shield and Mark of Tzeentch
Level 4 Chaos Sorcerer with shield, Talisman of Protection and - yup, you guessed it - Mark of Tzeentch
1 Exalted hero on Juggernaught
5 Skullcrushers
5 Maurauders
For those of you counting, that's 90 models with a 5+ ward save or better and 54 with a 3+ armour save or better.
I tried redirecting, setting up combi-charges into flanks, blocked him off from charges due to the size of his units... basically, every tactical move I could try to shift things in my favour. It didn't work - I estimate my opponent saved 75-90% of 5+ ward saves that he was forced to make. Even when I hit flanks so he only got 6+ saves, he made them. His chosen got strength 5 from the shrine and killed my Hydra before it attacked because I couldn't make 4+ regen saves; when I finally managed to break his chosen - they fled 8" and both pursuing units - including a chariot - only managed 7". My Pegasus Master killed one sorcerer, and spent 8 rounds of combat - yes, 8 - trying to kill his Sorcerer Lord but couldn't because of the 3++.
In the end, I lost because his skullcrushers managed to kill enough chaff, whereas I couldn't get any points off him because they were invested in big, unkillable blocks. I was running Death rather than Metal to try and snipe some Skullcrushers, but I seriously doubt that Metal would have changed anything - his Chosen, Warriors and Juggernaught's were packing MR, and my magic rolls were all around 6 or so dice. This was made worse by the fact that Tzeentch Lord's get +5 to dispel, and he had a gift that granted +1 dispel dice.
I'm not sure that there are any lessons that I can take away from this game other than "roll better" and "hope my opponent rolls worse," but has anybody else had any luck against a Warriors army armored and Tzeentched up to the gills? There's no Chosen star, but is it the cheesiest cheese fest that you've seen outside of the Chichester cheese factory? Am I better off sucking it up and waiting for the new book to nerf Mark of Tzeentch into the ground? Should I finally throw in the towel and run Mindrazored Corsairs to teach my opponent a lesson?
Warriors of Tzeentch
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
Re: Warriors of Tzeentch
Clockwork wrote:I estimate my opponent saved 75-90% of 5+ ward saves that he was forced to make.
Clockwork wrote:"hope my opponent rolls worse,"
Basically, yes. Statistically speaking, he should only pass 33% of them. The only thing I can really suggest is that if you can't negate saves, then you have to try to force your opponent to take metric bucketloads of them. The more dice he rolls, the more failures he will get. So you need lots and lots of attacks. What was in your list?
I don't see anything particularly cheesy about that list, although I'm probably not the best person to judge. My Chaos armies (of all flavours) have always been mono- or mostly Tzeentch since the late '80s.
A missive from the desk of Kylekin, Prince of Nhaeroth, Land of the Setting Sun
8th ed stats (W/L/D)
DE: 1/0/0
DoC: 2/1/0
Empire: 0/1/0
WoC: 0/1/0
8th ed stats (W/L/D)
DE: 1/0/0
DoC: 2/1/0
Empire: 0/1/0
WoC: 0/1/0
Seems you were really out of luck there .
My usual chaos warrior opponent often uses a pretty similar list. And yes those ward saves are a pain . My usual magic is shadow and metal. Do note li mostly use these spells to debuff .
In my last battle again WoC i used a horde of Executionrs leed by a Death Hag BSB .
But even then. You will need some luck .
My usual chaos warrior opponent often uses a pretty similar list. And yes those ward saves are a pain . My usual magic is shadow and metal. Do note li mostly use these spells to debuff .
In my last battle again WoC i used a horde of Executionrs leed by a Death Hag BSB .
But even then. You will need some luck .
Yeah, I don't think I can read too much into it due to the sheer luck factor. But it is the first time I have faced Tzeentch Marks en masse like that. Point denial on this scale seems a really unfun way to play :/ But I guess it works...
My army wasn't at all optimised to face it, which made the match up even worse. Couple of harpies, couple of 10 crossbowmen, some Dark Riders, Spear-Phalanx with Dreadlord, 2x Chariots, 7 Knights, Hydra, Pegasus Master, Level 4 Death, Level 1 Shadow, Cauldron. Not enough strength 6 I guess!
I'm leaning towards investing in some Executioners but they really need a lot of work to pull off. Can't see what else will punch through, though, other than mass Metal debuffing and Mindrazor. I can't wait till Dark Elves get some Monstrous Infantry and Cavalry for just this sort of thing!
My army wasn't at all optimised to face it, which made the match up even worse. Couple of harpies, couple of 10 crossbowmen, some Dark Riders, Spear-Phalanx with Dreadlord, 2x Chariots, 7 Knights, Hydra, Pegasus Master, Level 4 Death, Level 1 Shadow, Cauldron. Not enough strength 6 I guess!
I'm leaning towards investing in some Executioners but they really need a lot of work to pull off. Can't see what else will punch through, though, other than mass Metal debuffing and Mindrazor. I can't wait till Dark Elves get some Monstrous Infantry and Cavalry for just this sort of thing!
If he really made 75% of those saves, then you just we not destined to win that battle. Some days the dice gods just don't like you and there's nothing you can do about it.
Against a list like that, all you can really do is pick a unit to kill, hammer it with everthing you can bring to bear, and use chaff to divert everything else. Once you've killed it, avoid the rest of his army for the rest of the game. That's about all you can do.
Against a list like that, all you can really do is pick a unit to kill, hammer it with everthing you can bring to bear, and use chaff to divert everything else. Once you've killed it, avoid the rest of his army for the rest of the game. That's about all you can do.
- Demetrius
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Going for Final Transmutation on the big block of warriors might be a good idea. It effectively trims 1/3 of a unit each cast, bypassing all saves, even wards.
Handbow corsairs will do the trick against the marauders. Might need Mindrazor or something to win against the warriors though.
Use harpies to redirect the skullcrushers all game. They are frenzied, so must overrun, meaning you can effectively put them out of the game for a couple of turns per harpy unit.
Handbow corsairs will do the trick against the marauders. Might need Mindrazor or something to win against the warriors though.
Use harpies to redirect the skullcrushers all game. They are frenzied, so must overrun, meaning you can effectively put them out of the game for a couple of turns per harpy unit.
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- Malekith's Best Friend
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The greatest weakness with WoC lists when going up against Elves is that his battleline is going to be unwieldy, and (depending on terrain) he might be unable to close on you with his full force, maybe leaving one of his fighting blocks behind. This means you can fight him with more points on a narrower frontage, and with adequate buffs from the Cauldron and / or Magic, you should actually be able to win most fights. Him making an unreasonable amount of his saves screws this up big-time, of course.
Your list seems OK, but Death magic is more or less wasted against lists like this one since everything got high I against Purple Sun, and all his points will sooner or later have a 3++ or equivalent against the snipe spells. Shadow or Metal on your Lvl 4 will be better in this particular matchup. The Other Tricksters Shard usually make it into my tournament lists in one form or another, Warriors of Chaos list like this one and Daemons being the prime reasons :) The Pendant is (of course), one of the greatest items ever against lists like this one, and a Peg with Pendant can usually hold his units off almost the entire game. Don't forget that he has to challenge you, so try to get your Pegasus/Pendant into combat with his Lvl4 Wizard and wait for him to challenge you. (You might want to keep the BSB and Dreadlord within range to make sure you don't break while killing his champions/Lvl 1).
About your list in general I'm missing another dedicated fighterblock beside your Spearmen. Your Chariots, Hydra, Knights and Pegasus are all shock troops, and with steadfast they won't get you very far against big blocks like his. You have to fight Fire with Fire and bring at least one more fighting block yourself. I suggest either Black Guard or Executioners. BG are great to combine with Shadow Magic for the quite obvious Occam's combo, while I prefer Executioners when playing Death Magic to give your list some high S attacks.
Your list seems OK, but Death magic is more or less wasted against lists like this one since everything got high I against Purple Sun, and all his points will sooner or later have a 3++ or equivalent against the snipe spells. Shadow or Metal on your Lvl 4 will be better in this particular matchup. The Other Tricksters Shard usually make it into my tournament lists in one form or another, Warriors of Chaos list like this one and Daemons being the prime reasons :) The Pendant is (of course), one of the greatest items ever against lists like this one, and a Peg with Pendant can usually hold his units off almost the entire game. Don't forget that he has to challenge you, so try to get your Pegasus/Pendant into combat with his Lvl4 Wizard and wait for him to challenge you. (You might want to keep the BSB and Dreadlord within range to make sure you don't break while killing his champions/Lvl 1).
About your list in general I'm missing another dedicated fighterblock beside your Spearmen. Your Chariots, Hydra, Knights and Pegasus are all shock troops, and with steadfast they won't get you very far against big blocks like his. You have to fight Fire with Fire and bring at least one more fighting block yourself. I suggest either Black Guard or Executioners. BG are great to combine with Shadow Magic for the quite obvious Occam's combo, while I prefer Executioners when playing Death Magic to give your list some high S attacks.